Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill (First sitting)

Rebecca Smith Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Michelle Welsh (Sherwood Forest) (Lab)]

Mine is exactly the same: I am a member of Gedling borough council and Nottinghamshire county council, which have responsibility for administering benefits.

[Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)]

In the same vein, I am a member of Plymouth city council.

[Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab)]

I am a trustee/director of Southwark Charities, which provides accommodation for some older people who may be affected by the provisions of the Bill—a cursory reference, really.

Examination of Witnesses

Professor Mark Button, Dr Rasha Kassem and Professor Michael Levi gave evidence.

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[Andrew Western]

Q May I come back in on the specific point of independent oversight as it pertains to the DWP element? Obviously, we intend to put in place an independent person to oversee the eligibility verification measure and then HMICFRS on both search and seizure and information gathering. Are you satisfied with that proposal for independent oversight on the DWP side, or are there things that you would ask us to consider beyond that?

Dr Kassem: Personally, I would recommend a board rather than an individual, because how sustainable could that be, and who is going to audit the individual? You want an unbiased point of view. That happens when you have independent experts discussing the matter and sharing their points of view. You do not want that to be dictated by an individual, who might also take longer to look at the process. The operation is going to be slower. We do not want that from a governance perspective—if you want to oversee things in an effective way, a board would be a much better idea.

Professor Button: The only thing I would add on the DWP is that it is likely to be much more resource-intensive. There are likely to be a lot more cases. Having an appropriate capacity is important for that.

Professor Levi: I agree with that. Historically, in relation to asset forfeiture, say, the problem has been one of excessive caution rather than too much activity. A lot of legal challenges remain. I was on the Cabinet Office Committee that set that up, and there can be too much governance of that, so there is a tension between having a lot of governance in place and saying, “Look, can we get on with it?”

[Rebecca Smith]

Q I will come in briefly, because I am conscious of the time. I was interested in what Professor Button was talking about—encouraging people to commit fraud, and the rise of online videos, TikTok and all that sort of thing—and I wonder whether you think that the Bill does enough to allow for going after people who choose do that. In essence, that is a fraud in itself. Also, is this a good example of where the distinction between fraud and error blurs? If there is no education about what fraud is, and people are watching lots of social media videos on how to defraud things, does that become error or is it fraud? I am interested in whether we are, inadvertently, not tackling the root issues through the Bill, and whether there is anything that we could do to make it tougher.

Professor Button: It is important to tackle those areas. I am not sure whether it is something that needs to go in the Bill. I think it is more an issue of giving the body the capacity to go after those types of individuals and to work with other relevant policing agencies— I suspect that that would need to be the case—to deal with it, rather than saying such things in law. We have the Online Safety Act 2023, which covers a lot of areas. Is that useful enough? Are the Fraud Act 2006 and the historical offence of conspiracy to engage in fraud appropriate, or do we need to create a new, specific offence of, say, promoting social security fraud online? I would not like to comment on that; it is probably something that needs more thought. The key thing is more enforcement, and disrupting forums where that kind of discussion is taking place.

Professor Levi: There is also the issue of signalling to people where the boundaries lie. This is an issue not so much for the Bill, but for enforcement practice across the board. We need some condign activities that communicate to people via social media, as well as in the old media that we may read, what is acceptable, and what is and is not legal. The National Crime Agency has been pretty good about that in the cyber-crime area, in trying to educate people and to divert them away from crime. There are some good lessons across that. It is also a question of resource and how many such things people can deal with.

[Georgia Gould]

Q In your experience of researching fraud, how does this Bill compare to international best practice? Should we be considering anything else that you have seen that particularly works in other places?

Professor Levi: The Americans used to be better at this than may have been the case in the past few weeks. The General Accounting Office and some of the inspectorates general in the US have been pretty active, but the US still had a huge amount of covid-19 fraud. Australia is getting better. Clearly, the head of the Public Sector Fraud Authority is part of this group of people trying to improve things, but I would say we are starting at a pretty modest level, in terms of numbers of people. In terms of the DWP, it is a struggle for everyone. We have to look at it in relation to general welfare. I remember going to a meeting and talking to some French delegates who said to me that it was about—

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[Andrew Western]

Q I will ask one more question about the systems that we have in place. What do you perceive as the principal weaknesses in the DWP’s current powers to detect fraud?

Helena Wood: A really good point was made, and others who follow me in this Committee’s evidence sessions will make it as well: fraudsters rarely simply defraud the public sector or the private sector. It is often the case that those with a propensity towards fraud will look at any channel through which they can gain financial benefits.

This is very much a narrow-facing Bill, but we have to look at it in its broader context. I would question whether DWP could be doing more to share information with the private sector, using existing powers to do so. There are plenty of voluntary information and data-sharing schemes available to which DWP is not plugged in. It would complement this particular power to be able to layer the data picture and the intelligence picture, and not just look at this single piece of information in isolation. There will be a number of data points across the private sector that you could gain through voluntary data-sharing schemes that DWP is currently not engaging with.

[Rebecca Smith]

Q We just heard that serious organised fraud is considered to be only 10% of what is taken from the Department at the moment. Do you think that the measures to give DWP investigators power of entry, search and seizure are the right approach to tackling that 10% of serious organised fraud that exists?

Helena Wood: Absolutely; the point was well made in previous evidence that the police simply do not have the resources to look at fraud against consumers, never mind to support DWP, so I think it is entirely necessary to extend those powers of search and seizure to DWP as well. Again, I keep coming back to the broader context: there are other powers. We should not assume that this Bill is the sole answer. It has taken a very civil lens, quite necessarily, on what is a huge-volume crime, which cannot be dealt with simply through a criminal justice response alone. We have to save that criminal justice response for use in a surgical way, for the really high-end cases, particularly in an organised crime sense. We should not be seeing it as an either/or.

What I would not like to see from this is the replacement of the necessary deterrent of a criminal investigation and prosecution with pure use of civil measures. We need to use that full suite of powers beyond this Bill, including those in existing legislation, such as the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, and standard issue fraud criminal prosecutions. Something that I would like to see from the independent oversight is that we do not lose that criminal thread. We have to keep prosecuting where necessary, and providing that necessary deterrent through all the available means, not just the ones available in this Bill.

[Georgia Gould]

Q You mentioned that the PSFA powers are used generally, but they have not been available to tackle fraud in the public sector outside of tax and welfare. What is your assessment of bringing those powers into this space? How effective will they be at tackling public sector fraud?

Helena Wood: This is a really necessary approach. However, I would caution that we are holding off from establishing the PSFA as a statutory body for now, and I completely understand the reasons for that: we are in a very tight fiscal environment, the cost of setting up a new agency is substantial, and we need to test the competence of the PSFA in doing so. However, I think in due course we need a more fixed timeline to move the PSFA off into a statutory body, to at least remove any perception—if not actual political interference—in investigations. That is really important—we need a stronger timetable. I know that will happen when the time is right, but I would like to see a stronger timetable towards it. I think there will be at least a perceived risk of Executive overreach if the PSFA does not move in that direction more quickly.

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[Michael Payne]

Q Thank you both for sharing your experience and expertise with us this morning. It is estimated that there was about £5.4 billion-worth of fraud and error in temporary covid-19 schemes that were not run by HMRC. You will know that this is an area of significant public interest. The Public Accounts Committee said:

“It is very unlikely that most of the losses due to fraud and corruption”

during the pandemic

“will ever be recovered.”

How far do you agree with that statement? Do you think the new powers for the Public Sector Fraud Authority change the prospects?

Alex Rothwell: I absolutely do think they change those prospects. I was still in law enforcement when covid-19 was happening, and there was an extensive discussion about the police’s ability to support investigations. Frankly, policing had significant challenges with fraud, and still does, in terms of the volume of attacks against individuals and businesses, which made supporting the public sector almost an impossible ask, so I certainly welcome the ability to strengthen the public sector fraud response.

On whether the money will be recovered, there are significant challenges, as I am sure you are aware. It is right to apply a cost-benefit approach as well; although there is a moral imperative, we increasingly look at things in a commercial sense and at whether there is financial value in recovering funds.

Kristin Jones: It is very difficult to get money back from fraudsters, especially where it is organised, because the money disappears into different accounts in different names, and overseas through lots of corporate bodies, so it will be a big challenge. The important thing about this piece of legislation is whether we are future-proofing it so that, looking forward, we can learn from what has happened in the past and not repeat the mistakes.

[Rebecca Smith]

Q I am particularly interested in the work that the NHS serious fraud team is already doing. What specific challenges do you currently face in investigating fraud and recovering money that the Bill will help? Do you think there are gaps in what is being proposed that could be tweaked or amended?

Alex Rothwell: If we take the view that fraud has already happened—I have spoken about prevention, but once a fraud has happened and we have discovered it—there are increasingly limited opportunities to pursue criminal investigations. Although we maintain a strong investigative capability that deals with more serious types of criminality, we know about the challenges in the criminal justice system—the disclosure burden is high, it is incredibly expensive to run criminal investigations, and often they take eight years or longer to reach fruition—so we are increasingly looking at how else we can deal with fraud when it is presented to us.

In many ways, it is the low-value, high-volume cases that we see that are more challenging, where we are perhaps seeking to recover funds from someone who has taken £5,000, as I mentioned earlier. This is where I have the most interest in the Bill, because I think we would seek to use those powers extensively, and of course every penny that we recover is money that will be well spent in the NHS. I do not necessarily see any gaps in this particular legislation. There are elements of the work that we do in the national health service where we would benefit from some more powers, but the focus here is obviously on the Bill, rather than on our own ability. A lot of that would apply to how we access medical records, for example.

[Georgia Gould]

Q You have talked a little about the kind of police pressures that exist. I would be interested in both of your assessments, given your experience, of the police’s capacity and ability to investigate public sector fraud, and whether that means there is more of a need for civil powers.

Alex Rothwell: If we look across other international jurisdictions, we see that law enforcement agencies often have quite distinctive public sector fraud or crime functions—for example, the FBI has an extensive healthcare fraud capacity. The way policing has evolved over the last 20 or 30 years, particularly with an emphasis on drug supply, knife crime and firearms, has meant there is little capacity in policing to tackle public sector fraud, and of course there is an ever-present terrorism threat, which is changing rapidly. There is also safeguarding, with the National Crime Agency having quoted publicly the figures in terms of people who are a risk to children, for example.

One of the challenges is that even if you invest more in fraud capability, when a crisis happens, whether that is because of public order or some other form of crisis, policing has to flex more than other investigations. Inevitably, crimes like fraud are perhaps easier to put on hold for a time. Certainly since 2018 we have seen a gradual professionalisation and an increasing capability in the public sector, which I endorse. We could invest more in the police, but my concern is that there will continue to be crises that affect policing that will impact the ability of policing to support the public sector in the way that is required.

Kristin Jones: I agree with everything that Alex just said. The same applies to prosecution: if you have specialist prosecutors, where the resource is ringfenced, they do not get dragged away, but if you have them in with other prosecutors, it depends on what the pressure is at any particular time as to what resource is going to be given to fraud prosecutions.

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[The Chair]

For our final session this morning we will hear oral evidence from Anna Hall, corporate director of debt, and Christy McAleese, debt advice strategy and policy lead, both at the Money and Pensions Service.

[Rebecca Smith]

Q If you have been in the room, you will have heard a lot about the code of practice already. The Bill requires the Secretary of State to lay before Parliament a code of practice on the new recovery powers. What would you like to see in that code of conduct?

Anna Hall: A lot of the operational detail of how the powers will work needs to be worked through, and the code of conduct will clearly be extremely important. Already existing in government are the debt management vulnerability toolkit and the public sector economic abuse toolkit, both of which have been set up by the cross-Government and cross-debt advice sector fairness group. We would like to see those existing systems tailored for the Bill and the recovery powers, to make sure that the code is implemented fairly.

There is lots of detail in the debt management vulnerability toolkit. It is about making sure that every individual is treated fairly, no matter how the debt has arisen. Once a debt is owed to Government, we are interested in how someone is able to set up a sustainable repayment plan. How are they able to access free debt advice and get the support they need? Regardless of how the debt has arisen, there is their ongoing expenses, their family, the need to make sure that there are no unintended consequences for wider society and their family, and how that debt is recovered.

Christy McAleese: I agree with Anna. There are possibly also opportunities in the code of conduct to build on some of the good work that the Department for Work and Pensions has already been doing on its ways of working with the debt sector. That includes good and consistent signposting and referrals through to free debt advice if, as seems reasonable, someone who has perhaps been contacted by the Department seeks advice from the sector. There are also some things around the acceptability of the debt sector—the advice worker being able to act on behalf of the person, so third-party forms of authority—and we could look at that. That would streamline the process for the person in debt and make it much easier for the debt sector to work with the Department. There are probably other things in that area.

[Rebecca Smith]

Q Who should be consulted about putting together that code of conduct, or code of practice? Should the detail and the code of practice be included in the Bill?

Anna Hall: We can talk about who should be consulted. Debt advice organisations and consumer groups are important, because they will be the ones that interact with and support individuals in how they set up repayment plans and interact with the debt they owe to Government. At the Money and Pensions Service, we have an adviser panel, whereby we convene the debt advice sector, creditors and everyone who interacts in the ecosystem of debt advice. We can certainly support with that.

We are pleased with how DWP officials have engaged with us so far. They are clearly prioritising the people who are likely to be vulnerable. We work with them on an ongoing basis and expect to continue that through the development of the code of conduct.

Christy McAleese: To add to that briefly, we have a track record of doing consultation exercises in this area, and we have been sharing some of those learnings with colleagues at the DWP. In particular, as Anna mentioned, our debt adviser panel, which is made up of frontline advice workers from right across the sector, has been a valuable forum for us to understand how particular aspects of work that we are doing, and wider Government work, impact on the sector, and particularly on people in debt. Colleagues at DWP have been discussing how they can interact with that panel as part of the process as well, which we would really welcome.

[Rebecca Smith]

Q This question is on a slightly different tack. One of the powers in the Bill would disqualify a debtor from holding a driving licence. Is that likely to be an effective tool in getting people to engage and comply? Also, do you think the amount of time that that is for is long enough? It does not feel very long to me, given that it is supposed to be a deterrent. Do you think it is too long or too short, or should we just not look at this and use something else instead?

Anna Hall: One thing that we know quite a lot about at the Money and Pensions Service is how people in debt behave. They do not always behave in a particularly rational manner, or in the way that you might expect people to behave, as with all people interacting with systems.

It can be incredibly overwhelming to have multiple debts. If you draw an analogy to other types of debts that people might owe—say, mortgage arrears or rent arrears—the fact that you might lose your home if you do not pay it is obviously an effective deterrent. For some people, those kinds of consequences are an effective deterrent. But we see day in, day out in the services we fund that people leave it right to the last minute before they seek help, and some people do not seek help at all. There can be all kinds of reasons for that. It could be something to do with them—they may struggle with literacy; they may have really overwhelming mental health issues; or it could be that they just do not know what to do. It could also be that they do not know where to seek help from. So I am sure it will be a deterrent for some people, but for other people, deterrents are not really the reason that they do not engage with the system.

We think it is really important that the systems that are set up once a debt has arisen are encouraging and supportive and help people to engage with the Department, so that they can set up an affordable and sustainable repayment plan. That will minimise the number of people who get to that point. We have experience of working with the finance sector and with other Government Departments that are trying to recover debt. If you really focus on being supportive, encouraging and creating the environment where frontline staff are people that you would want to disclose information to, set up income and expenditure, get a signpost to debt advice from and those kinds of things—if that is inherent in the system—you will not need the deterrent very often. There are huge numbers of people who are very vulnerable who have multiple debts, and deterrents are not really the thing that will impact on their ability to engage.

[Andrew Western]

Q Anna, on your final point about engagement with customers, could you talk a bit about the partnership that the Department has with you and the MoneyHelper service, and the work that is done there to ensure that we seek to wrap appropriate advice and support around those who are indebted to the Department?

Anna Hall: We work with the Department in a number of ways. One of the most recent initiatives is working with Jobcentre Plus colleagues to embed the Money Adviser Network referral system into that. That means that where people present at Jobcentre Plus for a variety of reasons and are identified as having some kind of debt or money difficulty, they can either be referred to the MoneyHelper website—that is the Money and Pensions Service website—which has a variety of information on money, debt and pensions, or they can get a referral through the Money Adviser Network to one of our funded debt-advice providers. It is as seamless as possible and it really enables someone who presents perhaps not realising that there is help out there. When someone interacts with a system that they have to interact with, it is great if we can offer a real range of support that allows them to get to debt advice as quickly as possible.

I probably would say this, wouldn’t I, but debt advice can be absolutely life-changing for people? Its impact is huge. One thing we know is that people often do not know that debt advice exists. A huge number of people would benefit from debt advice. They do not know where to look or how to find it and think that is maybe is not for them, and they do not know what will happen when they get debt advice. If you have someone reassuring at the jobcentre saying, “This is a really independent, trusted service and it can help you sort out your financial affairs, and here is a seamless transfer through to that debt advice service,” that can be incredibly effective.

We are working with the Department, in Jobcentre Plus and across the board, on where people are particularly vulnerable and where they really need that support before they can even start to think about finding work or engaging with other things. If you are worried about whether you have food, whether you have money coming in and what you are going to do about the bailiff who is coming to knock on your door, you really need to deal with that before you can look at your long-term future.

The Department and all the officials we have been working with have been prioritising that. Being an arm’s length body of the Department for Work and Pensions is really helpful to make those connections, and embedding debt advice into all those systems has been really welcomed by the Department.