Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill (Second sitting)

Polly Billington Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 11th December 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We can hear them from here. The first Back Bencher who caught my eye was Polly Billington.

[Ms Polly Billington (East Thanet) (Lab)]

Q Thank you, Dr Huq. Steve, I would like to ask you a couple of questions on what you were talking about in terms of threats to the pub industry generally. I represent East Thanet, which is made up of Ramsgate, Broadstairs and Margate, which are heavily reliant on the leisure, hospitality and tourism industries. We have a lot of much-loved pubs in our town centres, but I am aware that many have closed over the last couple of decades. What would you identify as the drivers of the closures of those pubs? What are the numbers, just to put some context on the risks you have identified?

Steve Alton: I think there are a number of factors. We have seen a real evolution of the pub model. Inevitably, in any market, those that do not evolve and keep that connection and relevancy with their customers do, unfortunately, fall by the wayside. There is a natural evolution within the industry. The cost base has fundamentally changed. The profit and loss has changed for new pubs. It is a tight-margin business—tighter than it has ever been.

The two outliers of our model are property and people. We need a place to operate in the communities we serve, and we needs lots and lots of people. Both those have been subject to cost increases during that period. Yes, consumer tastes have changed. We know that, and we have some fabulous pubs that have completely embraced it and are full every day of the week because they are creating events. In fact, we have a major platform with our licensee of the year award, which we do every year, and we have a very proud winner who runs a high street pub in Burnley. Every day of the week—this is a grassroots, wet-led pub in the community—there is a reason for people to go in. She has a real cross-section of the community and would consider that she has got 150 locals; she knows them by name and their family background, and they go in to connect in the community. That is their hub.

[Ms Billington]

Q I am really impressed by the resilience of the pub industry in the context of those external drivers, but what legislative, tax or regulatory changes over previous decades have contributed to the crisis in the pub industry? I want to understand the context in which we are operating.

Steve Alton: As we know, employment costs have been rising disproportionately, as have the employer’s costs of living, so there is the legislation around that. We are subject not only to licensing but a number of other compound issues that we have to deal with locally with lots of different local stakeholders. All these need to be implemented with costs as well. It is the complexity, accountability and safeguarding. All those elements add layers of cost and complexity to the business. It is no longer what it was 20 years ago, when it was a far simpler model to execute, and the cost base has fundamentally changed.

During that period, tax has risen. Look at VAT as a start point. You have to control pricing with your cost base. We cannot just pass through compound inflation running at 20% a year. There is a dynamic issue at play—trade will fall off a cliff. We have seen it on certain high streets: they have just pushed that pricing too far, and consumers, who are subject to their own challenges, have fallen away. They have held that back to make it affordable, which in itself has eroded the margin and ultimately the profitability. It is a compound of all those things in play.

It is a tough business. Running a modern pub, you are full-in. It is a seven-day-a-week business. These guys are not taking minimum wage for themselves right now. You talk about protecting workers: they are workers in their own pubs, and they are not getting the rewards that they absolutely deserve for their efforts. They are willing to invest and look forward, but they need certainty. That is why the Bill is an integral part of a set of measures that need to provide that certainty, so that we do not lose fabulous publicans, licensees and families who know their communities so well and, as you know there are some fabulous pubs in East Thanet.

[The Chair]

Do any other witnesses have anything to add?

Kate Nicholls: Over the last five or six years, you cannot escape the closures due to covid and covid-related debt. That is the backdrop against which these businesses are trying to recover. You have not really had a break from covid to be able to build back resilience in the businesses. It is not just pubs; the broader hospitality sector is also facing the same challenges.

You have had high levels of covid debt, which was Government-issued, to be able to remain afloat during that period. You had two years where you were operating at or below break-even, and one in three of our businesses have no cash reserves because they have not had the ability to rebuild those cash reserves. The resilience in the independent sector in particular is just lacking. Couple that to the significantly increased tax burden—pre-profit taxes in particular—that has been borne over the last six to seven years by our sector; that further erodes the margin.

If we were going into covid in 2019, the tax burden overall was 32% of turnover. It is now 38% of turnover coming out of that. If you do it as a percentage of profit, 77% of our profits go back in one form or another of taxation. I know that taxation funds vital public services, but we are the highest-taxed sector of the economy overall. As a percentage of profit, nobody else pays as much tax as we do, and you cannot get away from that when you are looking at it.

Added to that, factors outside anybody’s control have driven closures over the last six to seven years: there have been 400% increases in energy bills on the back of the war in Ukraine and 20% food price inflation, which again is on the back of the war in Ukraine and tariffs that have come through. Those are significant additional costs that you are bearing in the business that go through to erode the margin and, at the same time, there has been a cost of living crisis, which means that you cannot pass that on to your customers.

You are caught between a rock and a hard place as an operator. The bigger operators just cut their investment fully; that is £7 billion not being invested in our high streets this year to cope with the cost pressures coming through. Those businesses will remain afloat, but the independents do not have that cushion to be able to manage the situation. They run out of road, in essence.

Steve Alton: To give one illustration, small pubs are still handling their covid debt. It can be up to £1,000 a month that these guys are still paying to pay that off, of which the Government debt is obviously a core part. When you are unprofitable, and you are still paying that out, you can imagine the quandary and why we are going to hit a tipping point pretty quickly. That will mean that we lose not only the taxation they generate but the repayment of that outstanding debt as well.

Sacha Lord: Apologies if this was said before I arrived, but my concern is that a pub is not just a place that serves a pint; it is the heart of the community. We know that 64% of people said that a pub is one of the main places that they congregate and that 86% said that when a pub closes, the community suffers. We are anticipating up to 9,000 closures next year with a double whammy in April of the national insurance increase and the business rate increase. I am more concerned about closures in quarter 1 next year than I was during covid.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michelle Welsh (Sherwood Forest) (Lab)]

Q I want to go back to something that Simon said about special educational needs in independent schools, and how in some cases SEN can be met only by independent schools. Can you give further clarification on that?

I spent a long time working with special educational needs in the state sector at every key stage, in both specialised and mainstream state schools. There was not a single case that I saw that was not able to be dealt with in a state school in one way or another. With the further investment this Government are talking about, I think that will change again. I would like some clarity, because if there are such cases, they should be taken up with the local authorities and Members of Parliament—it should not be the case.

Simon Nathan: I am happy to follow up with the Committee on that, because I do not have the specific cases in front of me, but I can obviously go and find that information. I do not think it is an issue on a national scale, but there will be local areas where the independent school is filling the need that perhaps cannot be wholly fulfilled otherwise. I am not saying that the expertise is not there in the state sector; I am saying that the capacity might not always be there.

[Ms Billington]

Q I notice that the fees of private schools in the Independent Schools Council have doubled in cash terms in the last 20 years. I would be interested in the explanation for that rise—the causes behind it—and the impact on both numbers and the composition of the pupils attending those schools.

Barnaby Lenon: I have been on a number of governing bodies, and have been a headteacher of schools where the fees went up quite significantly. It happened particularly in the period between 2003 and 2008, when the fees were driven by increases in state school teachers’ pay, in national insurance and in pension contributions. We did not suddenly all want to build new buildings; it was more or less forced upon us, but you are right that they were quite big increases, and the impact has been that fewer parents have been able to afford our schools.

[Ms Billington]

Q By how much?

Barnaby Lenon: I cannot answer that. We do not know, but I am quite confident that plenty of parents will have found it too difficult.

Simon Nathan: If you look at the number of pupils in independent schools over the last 10 years according to Department for Education data, on the face of it you could say, “Well, there’s 12,000 more,” but that is during a period when the overall school population went up by 800,000. The proportion of pupils educated in independent schools went down from 7% to 6.5%. There has been a proportionate decrease.

[Deirdre Costigan (Ealing Southall) (Lab)]

Q Thank you very much for your evidence. I am a former chair of the governing body of a state school, so this is a really interesting conversation. Mr Woodgate, you mentioned that private schools might need to look at redundancies to absorb the impact of the measure. I understand that the student-teacher ratio in private schools is double that in state schools. It is something like 8.5:1 versus 18:1 in state schools, so there are significantly more teaching staff in private schools. If there were to be redundancies, have you made any assessment of whether the impact would be similar to the impact on state schools?

David Woodgate: Pupil-teacher ratios are increasing anyway. Many schools are much beyond that. That is not a typical pupil-teacher ratio in one of our schools. Many are going up towards 20—the same kind of number that you are talking about in the state sector. Inevitably, if there are redundancies, there will be fewer teachers to go around and they will be teaching more pupils.

--- Later in debate ---

[Vikki Slade]

Q I completely accept the point that a lot of the talk around the Bill is about high streets, because of the particular references to retail, hospitality and leisure. But it is a Bill that affects non-domestic rates and multipliers for businesses. Do you have any thoughts or comments on the fact that there is no reference to manufacturing and how we support manufacturing businesses? Do you think that should be included within the Bill?

Rachel Kelly: Whether that can be included in the Bill, I do not know. But yes, the issue of an uncompetitive property tax system is relevant for lots of industries, and manufacturing is the one that you raised. Ultimately, that comes back to the higher rate of tax across the board. If you are alluding to the higher tax rate for the rateable values above £500,000—yes, it strikes me as an arbitrary threshold, and it will capture lots of different businesses and sectors. Maybe there will be some adverse consequences of that, which might be counter to the policy aims, but I am not sure.

It is a tricky one to balance. Ultimately, if this relief for retail, hospitality and leisure will be funded within the business rate system, our instinct is that it would be better to fund that across as broad a spectrum of the economy as possible, rather than narrow down that tax base even further. For context, the proportion of properties with a rateable value above £500,000 is 1% of commercial property in the UK. If we condense that down even further, it is a very narrow tax base to fund these other changes, so I am not sure that is sustainable. I am not sure we can address the issue of competitiveness for other sectors without addressing the elephant in the room, which is the huge tax rate that we have for everyone else—55%, or 50% for smaller businesses. They are very high tax rates compared with any other business tax.

[Ms Billington]

Q I am grateful for your evidence, and I am interested to hear your puzzlement about the reality of empty shops. I represent East Thanet, where there are three towns—Margate, Broadstairs and Ramsgate —all of which suffer from empty shops to a greater or lesser extent. Ramsgate has a 24% vacancy rate. Can you explain to me how that might be, and what impact the legislation might have on tackling some of the challenges around large property owners resisting taking on tenants?

Rachel Kelly: The reason why we have a huge amount of vacancy on our high streets must be multifaceted. Obviously, we have gone through a huge transition in our retail sector over the last 10 or 15 years, which has had an impact on some of our high streets. The supply of property is relatively fixed, so once there is an oversupply it is difficult to rectify in the short term. Our planning system will play a big role in ensuring that we can reuse those assets for the most appropriate purpose in our current economy.

As far as I am aware, the causational relationship is between vacancy and the disposable income of the residents in a local area. Where there is high disposable income there tends to be lower vacancy; where there is relatively low disposable income there tends to be quite high vacancy. To the point about whether there are, at the margins, people who keep their shops empty, that is not something that a rational investor would do.

[Ms Billington]

Well we must have a lot of irrational investors.

[The Chair]

The Clerk is telling me that we are steering away from the scope of the Bill, so I am being told off for allowing it to continue.