Oral Answers to Questions
Peter Grant Excerpts(7 months ago)
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The Minister for Armed Forces (Leo Docherty)
My hon. Friend is correct in her analysis. We are particularly focused on ensuring that our assets in the region contribute to the release of the hostages.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
What is the policy of His Majesty’s Government on defence deals and arms sales to countries whose head of armed forces is under arrest warrant for alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity?
Grant Shapps
As the Minister for Armed Forces pointed out, the licensing regime is entirely independent of that. We support the country. We support the only democracy in that part of the world. We do not support the individuals in that Government; we support the country itself.
Middle East: UK Military Deployments
Peter Grant Excerpts(1 year ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Grant Shapps
I can certainly provide an assurance that we will always do whatever we are able to do in the circumstances. During the recent pause, for example, part of the deal was that surveillance flights were not flown, but we would always ensure that we are trying to assist. In particular, given that this entire episode began with something of a surveillance failure, the UK has always been keen to help; from the very early days of this conflict we have provided additional intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance over the eastern Mediterranean. What is new now is for that to be over Gaza, relating to the hostages specifically.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
It is absolutely right that innocent hostages should be released, and that steps should be taken to release them. It is absolutely right that those responsible for the crimes of Hamas are held to account in international law. But why is the Secretary of State so reluctant to give a clear, simple “yes” to the question whether the Government will provide any evidence of war crimes to the International Criminal Court? Is it because he has already seen such evidence? Is it because Israel has asked him to promise not to share such evidence? What is the reason?
Grant Shapps
I have already said that the United Kingdom is bound by, and would always observe, international humanitarian law.
HMS Dasher
Peter Grant Excerpts(1 year, 8 months ago)
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Patricia Gibson
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. There have been some explorations about mass graves, but no evidence has been uncovered to back up that theory. However, there is an issue of men unaccounted for from that day, which is a cause of grief for families.
At the time, the Westminster Government ordered a complete news blackout for fear of damaging morale, and fearing questions as to whether or not faulty US construction could have been a factor in the tragedy. Local media were ordered to make no reference to the event, and survivors were also ordered not to discuss the events of that day. As a result, the many lives lost and the bravery of the crew and rescue teams have not always been acknowledged as they ought to have been. There has been speculation that the authorities ordered the dead to be buried in unmarked mass graves, but none has ever been found. The Royal Navy insists that a mass unmarked grave would have been against Admiralty policy, and that all sources relating to the sinking of HMS Dasher are now in the public domain.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
This is a story that I became aware of only a few days ago, and it is a horrific story by any standards. In January 1941, five men—the youngest of them only 15—from the village of West Wemyss in Fife were killed saving the village from a rogue sea mine that had gone adrift. As happened with the Dasher, people were not allowed to talk about it, even within the village, because of security concerns. Does my hon. Friend agree that after this length of time, the rights of surviving family members and friends to know exactly how and why their loved ones died have to take precedence over anything else? There is no longer any justification for withholding information about why the Dasher exploded in the case she is speaking to, or, indeed, whether it was a German or a British mine that killed five men in West Wemyss in 1941.
Patricia Gibson
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Yes, it is important that we understand that security considerations are at play during wartime, but ultimately families need to have the answers they seek when any casualties are sustained in any circumstances where people are serving their country and putting themselves in danger to protect the freedoms that we all enjoy.
Some of the Dasher remains recovered are buried in Ardrossan cemetery, recorded by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, while others are unaccounted for. I pay tribute to the work of the late John Steele of Ardrossan, who sadly died in December 2021, and his widow Noreen, who have extensively researched this tragedy and published their findings in a publication called “The Secrets of HMS Dasher”. They found that the official number of recovered bodies listed by the inquiry into the tragedy was far greater than officially indicated and sought tirelessly to find out the location of any unaccounted for men.
Sadly, despite the huge loss of life on HMS Dasher, or more likely because of the huge loss of life, this incident was undisclosed until 1945, when it was given a brief mention in The London Times. Bereaved families at the time of the loss of HMS Dasher were told only that their loved ones were missing, presumed lost. It was not until 1972, when official documents were released, that details of HMS Dasher and those who went down with her were revealed, yet the bereaved received no further official communication, other than the telegram they had received in 1943, indicating that their loved one was missing, presumed lost.
After this tragedy, an official board of inquiry was hastily convened, and within just two days, it was concluded that the Dasher had sunk due to an internal petrol explosion. However, some argue that several key witnesses were not called to give evidence. The official cause of her sinking is still doubtful, but it seems the explosion most likely occurred in the main petrol compartment and was ignited either by someone smoking in the shaft tunnel or a dropped cigarette.
The late John Steele and his widow Noreen spent long years interviewing numerous survivors of the disaster and browsed previously classified documents to better understand the ship’s fate. This painstaking work led them to conclude that the ship was never suitable for combat operations and that it was a disaster waiting to happen. Shortly before its sinking, it was found to contravene more than 20 Royal Navy regulations. Significantly, there was fuel splashing around the vessel. It is worth noting that the other converted Rio class ships had alterations soon after the loss of HMS Dasher and the amount of fuel permitted on board these ships was significantly reduced.
Mr Steele observed:
“What eventually spelled the end for HMS Dasher ship was its leaking petrol tanks. Sometimes the sailors could not return to their cabins due to the fumes. Just one small spark could have triggered the explosion, after which the ship took only eight minutes to sink.”
Steele and his wife Noreen were determined to discover what happened to those dead who remain unaccounted for, and he continued to investigate the rumoured mass grave in which many of the dead were said to be buried. Sadly, Mr Steele ended his days without finding out where those unaccounted for were, despite his tireless efforts to do so over many years, but I know that many of the bereaved families are grateful for his efforts to find their lost loved ones and raise awareness of this terrible event.
The site of HMS Dasher in the Clyde is an official protected war grave, designated as a controlled site under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986. Several memorials have been erected in the surrounding area, commemorating the event and the loss of life. On 28 June 2000, a memorial plaque was laid on the flight deck by a team from the European Technical Dive Centre. Every year, the staff of CalMac ferries stop over the very spot between Ardrossan and Arran where the Dasher went down, allowing bereaved relatives and local veterans to lay flowers and pay tribute to those who were lost. I want to pay tribute to those staff for the efforts they make to facilitate this.
Shortly after I was first elected in 2015, I wrote to the then Secretary of State for Defence, Michael Fallon, requesting a copy of the survey that was carried out on the site of the wreck of the Dasher. In his response, he explained that it was believed that significant, though unquantified, amounts of oil and ammunition may remain in the wreck, which lies in close proximity to a number of environmentally sensitive areas. No report was available as the purpose of the survey was to establish the location of the wreck site. In 2014, another non-intrusive survey was undertaken involving a remotely operated vehicle to obtain video and sonar footage of the wreckage.
The wreck of HMS Dasher lies about 500 feet down in the firth of Clyde between Ardrossan and Arran. It is recognised as an official war grave because the crew were unable to leave the vessel as it sank. However, the mystery of HMS Dasher continues with the story of John—“Jack”—Melville, aged 37, who drowned, and it is now believed that he may have been the real “man who never was”. Mr Melville’s body, many argue, was used in Operation Mincemeat, which was an elaborate hoax to fool the Germans into believing allied forces would invade southern Europe through Greece and Sardinia rather than through Sicily.
In 2004, 61 years after Melville died, his daughter, Mrs Mackay from Galashiels, was able to give her father the memorial service he deserved, with the help of the Royal Navy in Cyprus. The memorial service took place on board the current HMS Dasher, a patrol boat, in waters around a British sovereign RAF base in Cyprus. This was undoubtedly the first tribute by the Royal Navy to John Melville, the alleged “man who never was”, and it is thought to be the first time Britain’s armed services recognised Melville’s role.
The success of Operation Mincemeat was dependent on the provision of a believable genuine corpse. It is believed that, after Mr Melville’s body was recovered from the firth of Clyde following the loss of HMS Dasher, it was packed in ice and placed on board the submarine HMS Seraph for transport to the Mediterranean. There, his body was carefully dressed in the uniform of a Royal Marines courier, the fictitious Major William Martin, ensuring details such as labels were all correct. He was provided with false documentation to support the legend, including personal letters and photographs provided by female staff involved in the operation. Finally, the courier’s all-important leather briefcase containing the false plans was prepared, ready for transport.
On 29 April 1943, HMS Seraph made ready and departed for a location on the coast of Spain, chosen in the knowledge that an active German agent was stationed there. The prepared body was preserved in dry ice, packed in a special canister and identified only as secret meteorological equipment to all but those directly involved. At 4.30 on the morning of 30 April 1943, the canister was brought up on deck under the pretence of deploying the equipment it contained. The Seraph’s crew were ordered below deck, and the submarine’s officers were finally briefed on the real operation and sworn to secrecy. The canister was opened, Major Martin’s body was fitted with a Mae West lifejacket and the briefcase was attached. The 39th Psalm was read, and then the body was gently pushed into the sea, leaving the tide to carry it ashore, together with a rubber dinghy to complete the illusion of an aircraft accident.
And the hoax worked. Days after the body appeared on the Spanish coast, Winston Churchill received a telegram saying, “Mincemeat swallowed whole.” In addition to saving thousands of allied soldiers’ lives, Operation Mincemeat helped to further Italian leader Benito Mussolini’s downfall and to turn the tide of the war towards an allied victory in Europe. Although many still speculate and disagree as to the real identity of the man who never was, many absolutely believe that it was indeed Mr John Melville.
Tonight, I hope that commemorating the tragedy of the loss of HMS Dasher on the Floor of the House offers some tribute to the strength of North Ayrshire and Arran’s people, bringing the horror and devastation of the sinking of HMS Dasher to life while also remembering and honouring those who died and those who survived, sometimes with physical or psychological injuries. The crew were part of a war against tyranny, and they made the ultimate sacrifice to protect our freedoms and democracy. We must retell their story and pay tribute to them to ensure their memory lives on. Conflict continues in many parts of the world. This anniversary must remind us of those men and women who devote their lives to upholding democratic principles—principles that Ukraine is battling to defend as we speak.
In North Ayrshire and Arran, we have a proud history of supporting our Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines. I thank all servicemen and women, their families and Royal British Legion volunteers who support our veterans and have ensured that HMS Dasher’s sinking is properly commemorated, woven as it is into the fabric of Ardrossan’s history. I wish I had time tonight to give a roll call of all those lost on HMS Dasher, but instead I will simply ask the Minister to join me in paying tribute to all those who were so tragically lost that night, so suddenly. The impact on the survivors is beyond anything we can imagine, and the grief of the bereaved families would have been profound and life-changing.
As I prepared for the debate, and in response to my early-day motion 969 on the 80th anniversary of HMS Dasher’s sinking, I was contacted by David Mackintosh, who was involved with the HMS Dasher Association for many years, and whose great uncle Cecil John Davis, Ordinary Telegraphist, was lost at the age of 21 when the vessel went down. He is now buried in Ardrossan cemetery. This tragedy is truly part of Ardrossan, and the memorial to the lives lost has a prominent place in the town. I pass it regularly, as it is sited metres from my constituency office. The graves of those young men are well tended in Ardrossan cemetery, and they are treated with the reverence and respect they are due. This is a special day of commemoration for the people of Ardrossan, many of whom I know will have reflected quietly on this anniversary, with a great sense of loss and grief across the town. I hope the Minister will join me in paying tribute to all those who were on board HMS Dasher that night, those who survived, and those who did not. We will always remember their great bravery and their ultimate sacrifice.
The Minister for Armed Forces (James Heappey)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) for securing this debate to mark such an important anniversary, and for paying a moving tribute to those whose lives ended so tragically 80 years ago today. As she has set out, the explosion and subsequent sinking of HMS Dasher in the Firth of Clyde in 1943 was the second highest loss of life on a British warship in UK waters in the second world war. I cannot begin to imagine the depth of sorrow experienced by the families of the 379 men who lost their lives that day, unaware, as they were, of exactly how and where their loved ones had died. Back then, the situation was complicated by operational considerations and, as the hon. Lady has said, the Admiralty did not want the enemy to know the detail of the sinking of HMS Dasher. I therefore join her in remembering the crew of HMS Dasher. In doing so, we will preserve the memories of that terrible day, and their loss.
Let me take this opportunity to reflect on HMS Dasher’s remarkable, albeit short, history. A former cargo vessel, it was acquired from US operator Moore-McCormack Lines by the American navy on our behalf in 1941. Under the lend-lease scheme, it was converted into an aircraft carrier at a shipyard in New Jersey, before joining up with the Royal Navy to support the war effort a year later. Although her service was brief, Dasher played a central role in Operation Torch, the allied invasion of north Africa that was designed to remove the Axis presence from the continent. Alongside two other aircraft carriers, HMS Biter and HMS Furious, Dasher provided vital cover for the landing at Oran, Algeria, in November 1942. The operation marked the first time that the UK and the US had worked together on an invasion plan, and it resulted in a remarkable success, enabling the allies eventually to defeat German Field Marshal Rommel’s forces, and seize control of north Africa.
In February 1943, Dasher was assigned to escort Arctic Convoy JW53, but suffered severe weather damage and proceeded to Dundee for repairs. On 24 March 1943, she arrived on the Clyde with five Sea Hurricanes and six Swordfish aircraft to commence an operational work-up. That operational work-up took her out into the Firth of Clyde, where, three days later, as the hon. Lady set out, she was sunk in the extraordinarily sad circumstances that have been described. The closest nearby vessels were immediately diverted to assist in the rescue efforts, including the minesweeping trawler HMS Sir Galahad and the radar training ship Isle of Sark. Other ships were despatched from ports and harbours along the Clyde, including two merchant vessels, SS Cragsman and SS Lithium, which rescued 74 survivors between them. But Dasher was engulfed in flames and sinking rapidly. Within eight minutes, the entire ship was gone, leaving only 149 survivors out of a crew of 528, many of whom were covered in oil and fighting for their lives in freezing water.
We do not know exactly what caused the blasts that day, but the Court of Enquiry held in the aftermath concluded, as the hon. Lady said, that it was most likely the accidental ignition of a build-up of petrol vapour. Subsequently, inadequate safety provisions were identified which led to modifications to all the Navy’s US-built escort carriers, as well as significant changes in standard operating procedures, including reducing the volume of fuel carried on ships. As is sadly so common in conflict, all but 23 of those who died that day went down with the ship and their bodies have never been recovered. Instead, they are rightly commemorated on war memorials around the country, including the naval memorials at Chatham, Lee-on-the-Solent, Liverpool, Portsmouth and Plymouth, as well as at the RAF memorial at Runnymede and at memorials in the hon. Lady’s constituency.
Peter Grant
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way and I am very loth to introduce any note of disharmony tonight, but is he aware that there are very, very strong reports from a number of witnesses at the time that teams of body recoverers along the coast were convinced that they recovered far more bodies than the official number disclosed by the admiralty? Has he looked into that, or is he simply reading the statement given at the time that said everybody who was not buried in Ardrossan went down with the ship? A lot of people who were there that day do not believe that that is what happened.
James Heappey
As we read through the pack for today’s debate, we see that questions have been asked in this place and the other place a number of times in the 80 years since. There are a number of theories about what may or may not have happened that night, but all the records of the incident are now fully declassified and available through the National Archives. The survey undertaken is also freely available from the UK Hydrographic Office in Taunton. I am aware of the stories that there are of that night. I do not want, 80 years on, to cause any unnecessary disagreement or debate. I think all the questions around those sorts of suggestions have been well answered. I think that we might confidently conclude, now that all the papers of the time have been declassified, that the situation is as described by the Ministry of Defence and the official record.
As the hon. Gentleman rightly said, this is not the debate to cause disagreement, but the hon. Lady referred to Operation Mincemeat and it is a truly extraordinary story. Given the remarkable story of HMS Dasher, it would almost be nice to think that it was indeed John Melville who was used in that case, but the National Archives records have been declassified and are available to the public and they clearly show that it was Glyndwr Michael who was used for that incredible operation. But let us not differ in opinion on a moment of memorial
I thank everyone who has supported the 80th anniversary commemorations this past weekend, including the hon. Lady who secured the debate. In particular, a contingent of naval personnel supported memorial events in Ardrossan, including a wreath-laying and a service over the wreck. The hon. Lady has brought the plight of HMS Dasher to the House this evening, 80 years to the day since she was lost. The record of her debate will act as a further memorial to the 379 men who died that day. We will all remember them.
Defence Supplementary Estimate 2021-22
Peter Grant Excerpts(2 years, 9 months ago)
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Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
I was not convinced that I should take part in this debate, because I am possibly the least expert on defence matters in this Chamber, but I do have some comments to make.
Let me begin by saying that I do not think that asking very, very hard questions about defence spending on behalf of any of our armed forces is in any way disloyal to those who put their lives on the line. In fact, I would suggest the opposite, because, sometimes, it is our responsibility to ask the questions and to shout about the concerns that serving members of the armed forces, for obvious reasons, are not allowed to express publicly.
I wanted to speak in this debate because we can argue—no doubt we will continue to argue—about how much the defence budget should be each year. We have already seen the beginnings of an argument on the Government Benches about how much of that should be spent on small equipment, how much should be spent on major equipment and how much should be spent on people. The reality is that there will seldom be enough to spend as much as we would like to on all three areas. What concerns me is that, for far too long, the huge amounts of public money that have been spent by the Ministry of Defence have not been well spent or well managed. That means that, for the amount of money that is put into the defence budget, we do not get the number of soldiers, sailors and air personnel that we could get. We do not get the equipment that we should get, and if we do get it, we do not get it on time.
I have been looking at recent reports from the National Audit Office and from the Public Accounts Committee, which I have had the privilege of sitting on for the past two years. In June 2021, the National Audit Office published a report entitled, “Improving the Performance of Major Equipment Contracts”, because it was picking up on a catalogue of failures, of late delivery, of equipment being delivered that was not fit for purpose, and of contracts going hundreds of millions—sometimes billions —of pounds over budget. It found that in eight of the 19 major programmes under way at the time, the senior responsible owner, the military person with direct responsibility for delivering on that project rated their delivery confidence as “amber/red” or “red”. In other words, the people charged with the responsibility for delivering those projects were not convinced they could deliver what was needed where it was needed and when it wasneeded.
The Public Accounts Committee picked up on that report and took further evidence from the MOD, and our report was published in November 2021. We identified, for example, that the contract for four Astute-class attack submarines was more than £1 billion above budget and the Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers were £2.75 billion over budget. It is easy to look at those numbers in the context of the total MOD budget and say that none individually is a huge percentage, but when we think what £3 billion, £4 billion or £5 billion could do to improve the accommodation that service personnel are living in, for example, and what that would do for morale, that waste of public money is simply inexcusable.
The Committee made a comment that really should have rung alarm bells throughout Whitehall—bearing in mind that this is a Committee where, by its nature, the Government have a majority:
“We are deeply concerned about departmental witnesses’ inability or unwillingness to answer basic questions and give a frank assessment of the state of its major programmes.”
In other words, there was a cultural problem at the highest levels of the MOD and they were not convinced that the Public Accounts Committee, on behalf of this House, had the right to ask such questions.
The hon. and gallant Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer) said that he regarded parts of the integrated review as dishonest; I must say that some of the financial planning documents that the MOD continue to publish could well be given the same descriptor, because they simply do not give an honest and frank view of the challenges it faces in being able to afford some of its plans over the next 10 years. I mentioned improving accommodation for service personnel, and that was not a random example.
Jeremy Quin
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s comments about some of the decisions made by the previous Labour Government, particularly in relation to the aircraft carriers, although I would not describe having those two aircraft carriers as a waste of Government money. They are an extremely valuable addition to our defence and have an extremely good job to do. I take issue with the idea of any document produced by the Department being, as he was implying, dishonest. We have an equipment plan now that has not been deemed unaffordable by the NAO. For the first time in many years, we are balancing our books and delivering on our programmes.
Peter Grant
I am glad the Minister mentioned the affordability of the equipment programme. I think that plan is dishonest if it describes itself as affordable, for reasons that I will come on to later.
Peter Grant
Given that the right hon. Gentleman is a best pal of mine sometimes on the Public Accounts Committee, I will give way.
Mr Francois
The hon. Gentleman missed the best bit of the November report, which was that the cross-party Committee concluded that the UK’s defence procurement system was “broken”. Does he agree that we are not going to deter further Russian adventurism with a £4 billion light tank that not only does not work, but deafens its own crew?
Peter Grant
I think the right hon. Gentleman will understand that there are far too many examples for me to quote them all. I want to leave some for him. I have no doubt he will bring his much greater knowledge to bear on the example he quoted.
Mr Kevan Jones
The Minister said the plan is in balance, but that is not what the NAO report says. It is only in balance if the Department meets the so-called efficiencies, which, on previous form, it has never met.
Peter Grant
I wish I had not let the right hon. Gentleman intervene, because he has just stolen my thunder, but never mind—“It’s nae loss whit a freen gets”, I think is the phrase we would use in Fife.
The single living accommodation, at the time the NAO started looking at it on 31 October 2010, was being used by almost exactly 80,000 armed forces personnel, or more than half the entire number of people working in our armed forces. Some 36% of those 80,000 people were living in accommodation rated grade 4 or below. The accommodation was so poor that the MOD did not even have the cheek to charge rent on it—that is how bad it was. I do not know what accommodation standards legislation is like in England, but certainly in Scotland it would be illegal to rent out some of that accommodation as a private landlord, a social landlord or a local authority.
Peter Grant
I am sorry, but I really do need to make progress. I could talk until 7 o’clock, if the right hon. Gentleman wants me to, but I think other Members wish to speak.
The Public Accounts Committee reported that the Commands—the Army, Navy and Royal Air Force—planned to use some of the £16.5 billion of additional funding to address the backlog in maintenance and repairs of that accommodation, which at the time was estimated to be about £1.5 billion. The Committee reported at the same time:
“However, this extra funding seems to have already been spent more than once before it had even arrived with the Department”.
As I am sure many hon. Members are aware, if we listed the number of times that Ministers or civil servants told us that an MOD funding problem would be fixed by that additional money, welcome though it is, it would certainly add up to many times. Perhaps that is why they are a wee bit coy about giving us a detailed breakdown of exactly what the money will be spent on, because once they do that we will find out that it will not go nearly far enough.
Peter Grant
The right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar) is not looking, so I give way to the hon. Member.
Rachael Maskell
I have been carrying out a bit of an inquiry into Annington Homes, which owns a lot of the MOD estate. The MOD is currently leasing 7,230 vacant homes from Annington Homes. Given the refugee crisis and the fact that we have 11,000 to 12,000 people in bridging hotels, would it not be worth investing in those homes and bringing them up to standard, so that they could be used to rehouse people who have now been languishing in hotels for more than six months, not least because many of them served with our armed forces?
Peter Grant
The hon. Member makes an important point, and she reminds us that if accommodation is lying empty, it should not matter which Department or public body has its name on the title deeds; houses are there for people to live in, so whether they are evacuees and refugees from Afghanistan or anyone else, it should be possible to give them the kind of accommodation they want.
I will go through some of the findings of the NAO report, “The Equipment Plan 2021 to 2031”. I think it is dishonest to state as a matter of fact that the equipment plan is affordable, because in order for it to be affordable, as the NAO report states in paragraph 2.7, £3 billion of financial risk was not included. For example, a future combat air system had an estimated cost in its business case up to 2031 of between £10 billion and £17 billion. The equipment plan allocates £8.65 billion, so that one project alone is, at best, underfunded by £1.35 billion, and at worst it has possibly been allocated barely half the money it will cost.
Paragraph 2.17 refers to £7 billion of what the MOD terms “Planned Cost Reductions”—I think this is what the right hon. Member for Warley was referring to. At the time, according to that report, the top-level budget holders had plans to deliver less than half of the £3.1 billion. Some £2.6 billion of it needed to be achieved by 2025, within the first four years, and the first of those first four years is up in three weeks’ time. As the right hon. Member mentioned, the MOD has a dismal track record, assuming it will make massive savings all over the place and delivering very little of it. It cannot afford to get it wrong this time, but I think we all know that the chances of it getting it right and delivering that £7 billion, if its past record is anything to go by, are very slight. It is yet another hole in the affordability of the equipment plan.
Paragraph 20 of the NAO report picked up on an issue that the MOD does not like us to talk about but that I think is very important. It states that the top-level budget holders were
“deliberately spending more slowly on projects to keep within their budgets”.
In other words, they were given a budget to have something delivered and ready to use in 10 years’ time, but they spend the budget in 10 years and then the equipment is not ready until after 12, 13 or 14 years. There can be unforeseeable delays in the procurement of defence equipment, but if the MOD has assessed that the military will need that equipment in 2031, and then someone in the MOD deliberately delays procuring it for any amount of time, simply to make it look as if they are sticking to the budget, I do not see how that can possibly be acceptable.
Elsewhere, the NAO estimated that about £12 billion of savings built into the equipment plan were not savings at all, but were based on spending the money after the period of the equipment plan. They were based on delaying getting this vital equipment to our service personnel. An independent assessment carried out by the MOD’s cost assurance and analysis service, looking at projects that make up about 58% of the current year’s plan—although clearly there will be bigger expenditure on some of them later—reckoned that those projects alone were likely to cost £7.6 billion more than was assumed in the make-up of the defence equipment plan. It goes on and on. The NAO’s conclusion in paragraph 23 is that
“There is a real risk that, despite the additional funding it has received, the Department’s ambition outstrips the resources available to it.”
In layperson’s language, despite the MOD saying it has an affordable equipment plan, there is a very real risk that it does not.
Finally, the affordability of the equipment plan depends on getting an inflation plus 0.5% budget increase every year up to 2031. The Treasury has said it is comfortable with that, but given what has happened recently to public finances, the cost of living and inflation, I question whether it is still realistic to assume that is guaranteed. It is possible that it will be delivered; if it is not, that is yet another hole in the affordability of that plan. I make no apology for saying that where the equipment plan says that it is affordable and does not put all those caveats against it, it is a dishonest document for anyone to have published. It makes statements that are patently not justified, even by the information that was made available to Members of Parliament and, indeed, members of the public.
We can argue about whatever amount of money is allocated to the Ministry of Defence in this year’s budget or next year’s, or in any year coming, but we are failing our service personnel. The Government, this Parliament and the MOD are failing our service personnel, first because they are not being open and honest with them about the financial challenges they continue to face, but most importantly because surely, when somebody signs up and is willing to put their life on the line—let us not forget that two young men from Glenrothes lost their life fighting an illegal war in Iraq, and would probably be here today if they had had the best possible equipment available—the very least they are entitled to is living accommodation that is fit for human habitation, and to be given the best possible equipment available to defend themselves from enemy attack. I do not have confidence that this Government, or any future Government in this place, will genuinely honour those commitments.
That is why, whatever budget is set for the MOD through the due process, there needs to be a complete root-and-branch review of financial management—far too often, financial mismanagement—within the Ministry of Defence. It is costing billions and billions of pounds that the MOD simply cannot afford to waste, and there will be times when it risks costing the lives of our service personnel.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Not for the first time and, I am sure, not for the last time, the House has cause to be grateful to the right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar) for reaching across the party divide in support of the strongest possible defence of this country and the strongest possible support for NATO. It is in that spirit, as a former Chairman of the Defence Committee, that I acknowledge the stalwart support he has given to successive holders of that post. This is an opportunity for defence-minded parliamentarians to give some initial reaction to the colossal and extraordinary events of the past fortnight in the context of what Britain was going to spend on defence, and what it should spend on defence in future.
In June 1950, five years after the end of world war two and following a time of mass demobilisation, the Korean war broke out. The effect of that conflict, quite apart from the terrible consequences for the people living in Korea, was to cause a huge reassessment of the amount of national effort that must be invested in defence in the United Kingdom. That led to a reconsideration of the level of defence expenditure, and I suggest that the seismic events of the past two weeks should lead to a similar reassessment of what we are prepared to invest in defence in the United Kingdom in the 21st century. We cannot conduct this debate as if nothing serious has happened to transform the situation in the past two weeks.
Although it is very early and the outcome of the conflict is still very much in doubt, I suggest it is possible to come tentatively to about half a dozen conclusions, and I will run through them very quickly. First, I think we can say that the advanced public messaging by the United States, NATO, the United Kingdom and other allies has been outstanding. It has prevented President Putin from seizing the narrative. By predicting accurately in advance what he was going to do, it has completely undermined his potential disinformation campaign. Every pronouncement that we hear from the Kremlin is so ludicrously at odds with reality that it cuts no ice at all, except with those totally indoctrinated.
Secondly, the events of the past fortnight dispel any illusions we might have had about the nature of our Russian adversary. As has been said rightly many times by those on the Front Bench, that is not the Russian people, but the people in control of that great, but benighted country. We must remember that people such as President Putin are the direct descendants of the regime whose ideology led them to kill millions of their own people in the decades in which Leninism and bolshevism held sway. Although the communist doctrine has collapsed, the mindset, the imperialism and the brutality have not. I have previously described President Putin in uncomplimentary terms, and I think it is worth repeating them. This man is a cynical, sneering psychopath. He does not care how many people he kills, as long as he gets his own way. Anyone thinking that there is a way to reason with these people, rather than deter, contain or, if necessary, defeat them, is living in a world of fantasy.
Thirdly, in light of Ukraine’s decision to give up—admittedly it was not a system it could operate at the time, but given time it could have done so—the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world, which it inherited from the former Soviet Union, any lingering doubts about the wisdom of the United Kingdom continuing to possess a strategic nuclear deterrent as long as Russia does so have finally been put to bed.
Peter Grant
I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that we do not have a problem with the issue; we have a problem with nuclear weapons. Is he not aware that as a matter of international law, as a successor state to the Soviet Union, Russia was the legal owner of those nuclear weapons? It was entitled to take them away. Ukraine would have been in breach of the law to try to hold on to them.
Dr Lewis
Yes, and I am also aware that as a result of Ukraine’s decision to give up those nuclear weapons, Russia guaranteed the security and the borders of Ukraine. If the hon. Gentleman is going to throw international law at me, all I can say to him is that, if he thinks that those sorts of manoeuvres and unilateral renunciations are the way to stop someone being attacked and destroyed by a ruthless adversary, it should be a long time indeed before he and people who think like him have any influence on the way in which we choose to keep the peace—by deterrence—so that we do not end up in a situation like Ukraine.
Fourthly, this horrible situation should establish whether and to what extent economic sanctions can force an aggressor to desist. It is often said that the world has become more interdependent. We will never see a more extreme example of democratic countries seeking to use economic pressures to force an aggressor to desist. If that fails to work in this instance, it will be a further argument for increased investment in hard defence capability, because that particular aspect of hoping to be able to turn war into an outmoded concept will, sadly, have been disproved. I hope that it does play a part in stopping Russia from proceeding, but I am not holding my breath.
Fifthly, the conflict has exposed the folly of fuel dependence on hostile countries and raised questions about the wisdom of a policy of unilateral net zero targets by democracies regardless of what much larger countries, that are not democracies, do. I am not seeking to pick an argument with the environmentalists; I am merely saying that there is a parallel with the question of unilateral or one-sided nuclear disarmament, because if we achieve net zero at tremendous cost to ourselves while much larger hostile countries simply flout the commitments that they have given, we will have taken that pain for no benefit to anyone. Targets must be multilateral if they are going to do anything other than weaken our ability to protect ourselves.
The last of the six lessons is that the conflict has killed the idea that conventional aggression by one state against another is an outmoded 20th-century concept. Time and again, people such as the right hon. Member for Warley on the Opposition Benches and my right hon. and hon. Friends present on the Conservative Benches have raised the question of what an appropriate level of defence investment should be, only to be told from on high, “You’ve got to realise that there are new forms of warfare. The next war will not be fought much with conventional armed forces. It will be fought in cyber-space or even in space itself.” Of course, there are new and serious threats—potentially fatal threats—in those two newer areas of conflict, but they are additional threats. They are not substitutes for the threats that we have always faced and continue to face from conventional armed forces.
Oral Answers to Questions
Peter Grant Excerpts(3 years, 1 month ago)
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Leo Docherty
I am delighted that we will have an independent veterans’ commissioner in Wales, and I thank my hon. Friend for the campaigning she has done on this. We look forward to positive working with the Welsh Government to ensure a very positive outcome for veterans in Wales.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Ben Wallace)
In September, I notified the House of data breaches relating to the MOD’s Afghanistan relocations and assistance policy, or ARAP. An internal investigation has now concluded, and I have laid a written ministerial statement of its findings before the House. While the breaches were attributed to human error, they should have been prevented by better operating procedures and training. Significant remedial actions were taken, and I am confident that their application is sufficient to prevent recurrence.
We are not aware of anyone who has come to harm as a result of these breaches, but continue to support all families awaiting relocation to the United Kingdom. As I said earlier, of the 311 ARAP-eligible Afghan families unable to board a flight who had been called forward before the end of Op Pitting, fewer than 200 remain, and we will continue with those relocations. The scale of that task should not be underestimated. More than 89,000 applications have already been received and more than 7,000 people relocated to the UK. I apologise again for the data breaches, recommit to efforts preventing recurrence and thank all those in the MOD whose ongoing work is honouring our debt of gratitude to those Afghan nationals who supported our efforts in the country.
Peter Grant
As the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) referred to earlier, and may well be planning to refer to again in a few minutes, we have seen report after report from the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee highlighting the fact that the Ministry of Defence does not have an adequately funded and affordable equipment programme. It has weaknesses in its management of major defence projects. There is not even a proper funding mechanism to match the long-term nature of the contracts. This is causing delays in critically important frontline equipment. How much longer will it be before our service personnel can guarantee that they will always be equipped with the best equipment available?
Mr Wallace
I understand the hon. Member’s concern, but I say to him first that we will publish our equipment programme soon, and that it is not the case that the projects are unfunded—that is an incorrect assertion. Like him, I am absolutely determined to get to grips with some of the issues. That is why we took some decisions to cancel or not proceed with programmes. We took some tough decisions to ensure that the equipment programme is affordable. It is also why the Prime Minister gave us a record capital departmental expenditure limit settlement for our equipment programme, to ensure that we can deliver the equipment for our forces.
Loss of Secret Documents
Peter Grant Excerpts(3 years, 5 months ago)
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Jeremy Quin
Absolutely. Again, that is not the subject of this UQ, but my hon. Friend can rest assured that we will continue to conduct ourselves appropriately and professionally, as the Royal Navy always does and as it did last week in its innocent passage across the Black sea. That is absolutely the case. I sincerely hope that this is not a case of our adversaries having sight of these documents, but that is something that has to be confirmed by the investigation.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
While there have been attempts today to scapegoat the civil servant involved and the BBC, the fact is that whether the civil servant’s actions were caused by carelessness, forgetfulness, malice or whatever, at least one other person had a responsibility to stop that civil servant getting those papers out the door of the MOD, so at least one other person, and possibly a whole chain of precautions, has failed. Will the Minister give an assurance, first of all, that the investigation will not be allowed to become a blame allocation or scapegoating exercise? Will he also assure us that not only will Parliament be advised of the result of the investigation, but that he or one of his colleagues will come back to give a statement and be questioned and held to account by Members of Parliament on the results of that investigation when it is ready?
Jeremy Quin
The investigation is partly to find out what happened and the circumstances behind the mislaying of these documents. I will not prejudge whether others were involved; it just needs to be discovered. I totally take the hon. Gentleman’s point that one should not jump to conclusions. We need to have a proper investigation. As I say, the police are involved. We need to find the conclusions of that. We also need to find out what we need to learn for the future, and I will make certain that the House is advised of the conclusions of the investigation.
Oral Answers to Questions
Peter Grant Excerpts(3 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (James Heappey)
The UK Government are committed to working with the Government of India and increasing our efforts to combat shared threats. In particular, the UK is focused on increasing bilateral maritime co-operation in the Indian ocean and on ensuring a closer defence industrial relationship in line with Prime Minister Modi’s made in India policy. We are also committed to uplifting our defence education and training relationship to enable us to work together more effectively. I am certain that my hon. Friend and our friends in India will be hugely excited by what may follow in the integrated review.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) [V]
Jeremy Quin
I am not going to prejudge in advance of the announcements that are going to be made. They will all be made in the next eight days or so. The hon. Gentleman will be able to see for himself, but I assure him that we have gone through the numbers very closely and there is a lot of new money coming into defence—a £24 billion increase in the amount of money being spent on defence. We can see an awful lot of benefit coming through to our armed forces and our personnel.
Covid-19 Response: Defence Support
Peter Grant Excerpts(3 years, 11 months ago)
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Mr Wallace
First, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s husband, who is doing the other part of the defence task, which is getting on and keeping our country safe at the same time as the rest of our armed forces are engaged in covid. I understand the concerns around the Brecon barracks and indeed the current headquarters of the Army in Wales. I know that my hon. Friend the Minister for Defence Procurement has been to visit. There will be an announcement shortly on the future of that location.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) [V]
My constituency has traditionally provided significant numbers of recruits, particularly to the Army. Whether these soldiers are on the frontline against a military threat or a deadly virus, they deserve the best equipment we can provide. However, recent TV footage would seem to suggest that soldiers on frontline anti-covid duties are wearing what looks to the layperson to be pretty basic protective equipment. Can the Secretary of State confirm that all military personnel working in potentially covid-hazardous environments will be provided with protective equipment to the standards recommended by the relevant public health authorities?
Mr Wallace
Yes, all military personnel should be wearing, and be equipped with, PPE in line with the standards put out by the public health authorities. I know the hon. Gentleman’s constituency well—there is a defence industrial base there—and I know that part of Scotland well, and I know that not only do they deserve the best but that they deserve the support of the whole United Kingdom, to which the Scottish regiments make an important contribution.
Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment
Peter Grant Excerpts(4 years, 1 month ago)
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Jeremy Quin
I thank the hon. Lady for her question. I believe that there are 1,600 medics currently deployed and embedded in the NHS, and we will do all we can to support them throughout the winter period. I do appreciate her interest. We will continue to provide that support to the NHS in the months ahead.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) [V]
This week in particular, we all remember with gratitude the price that so many service personnel have paid in time of war. I also associate myself with the thanks expressed by other Members for the work that the armed forces have been doing just now to protect us in the face of such a huge peacetime threat. The armed forces draw their personnel from every community of the United Kingdom, and every citizen in every part of the United Kingdom contributes to the cost through their taxes. Will the Minister tell us what measures are in place to make sure that the deployment of the armed forces just now is based on an assessment of where they can be most effective and where their efforts are most needed?
Jeremy Quin
To reassure the hon. Gentleman, I do not think that we have ever needed to have that kind of discussion, because when we receive MACA requests, be they from Scotland or from elsewhere, we judge them on their merits, on where we can help and on where there is support that can be provided, and that is routinely honoured. It is not a case of having to ration support at the moment. I think that I said earlier that 7,500 were deployed actively, but I think that was the number available. There are only about 4,000 who are actively deployed on the ground, which means that we always have that extra resilience built in. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that, if a request comes in from Scotland or elsewhere, it will always be very sympathetically looked at by the Ministry of Defence.
Oral Answers to Questions
Peter Grant Excerpts(5 years, 8 months ago)
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Gavin Williamson
That charity has also been looking at the United Kingdom. We are keen to work closely with it, to see how we can take the lessons learned from the United States and the positive experiences that have been created and ensure that it can benefit people here in the United Kingdom.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
Although I certainly endorse the gratitude expressed for the support that many thousands of volunteers give to veterans, is it not time we accepted that it should not be left to charities to look after people who have been injured in the service of their nation? It is not charities that send people into war; it is Governments. What representations has the Secretary of State made to his colleague the Chancellor to ensure that health services, local authorities and other public bodies are adequately resourced, so that the welfare of veterans can be funded from the public purse, rather than relying on charity and volunteers?
Gavin Williamson
This Government have put veterans and our service personnel very much at the heart of not just what the Ministry of Defence does but right across Government. Of course, devolved Governments play a vital role in delivering services. We all recognise the important role that charities play, and they provide a lot of services on behalf of Government, in order to be best able to reach out to people who have served in our armed forces.