Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill (Second sitting)

Peter Dowd Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd January 2018 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Thank you very much for that. If the gentlemen—or ladies—are finding this room warm and they would like to remove their jackets, they should feel free to do so. I call Peter Dowd.

[Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)]

Q 43 Thank you, Mrs Main. My first question is a general one. I would like a view from the coalface, so to speak. If the Bill is passed in its current form, will it offer adequate protections to the UK economy against dumping, for example?

Ben Richards: Our view is that, particularly in the scenario we will move into after Brexit, having an effective trade remedies regime for the UK is vital to protecting our manufacturing industries and the members we represent in those industries.

One of the major problems we have with the Bill is that, because so much of the crucial detail is being put into regulations, it is hard to assess properly at this stage whether it gives adequate protections. Certainly, from reading the Bill as it is now, our view as Unite is that it does not appear to give even the same protections as we currently enjoy in the EU regime, and we want to see a stronger trade remedies regime introduced in the UK in future.

Kathleen Walker Shaw: I work for the GMB, which has a number of members across a number of manufacturing sectors. I have to say that when I read the proposals in the Bill, I was extremely alarmed by how weak the remedies were in terms of anti-dumping cases. This is a complex area of trade law, and we know from the European experience, where there is a very robust system, that you cannot take your eye off the ball when you are pursuing those cases. They are very data, document and resource-heavy cases to bring forward.

I just feel that the provisions in the Bill do not fulfil the promise we were given that British jobs, British industry and the British economy would thrive post-Brexit. I feel that huge risks would be taken with our ability to protect and promote British industry and British jobs if the proposals were not amended.

Rosa Crawford: If I could add some specific concerns that we have, there is a compulsory lesser-duty rule in the Bill, which would mean that anti-dumping measures were not adequate. There is ample evidence that the lesser-duty rule is not efficient. Indeed, at EU level, the rules have been reformed to take away compulsory use of the lesser-duty rule, yet it is in the Bill, which would not provide adequate protection against dumping. There is also an economic interest test and a public interest test in the Bill. Those would allow the Secretary of State to veto recommendations by the trade remedies authority that trade remedies should be applied. We regard that as an overreach of the Secretary of State’s power that will not lead to an effective trade remedies mechanism being established.

Also, building on what Ben from Unite was saying, we are seeing a whole area of trade remedies in the Bill left to secondary legislation. China, a non-market economy, has clearly been one of the worst offenders in the last few years and has affected steel and other sectors in which we have significant numbers of members. There has been a real negative impact on jobs, and there is nothing in the primary legislation about how they will be dealt with. Again, for that we would need to see there being an effective trade remedies mechanism post-Brexit.

[Peter Dowd]

Q Let us stick with that theme. What assessment have you made, or are there any assessments that you might be aware of, regarding industries that are most vulnerable to losses caused by dumping, for example? You referred to steel. Could we just tease that out?

Ben Richards: One of the things that we have been doing, as Unite, with the GMB, the TUC and our sister union, Community, is working very closely with employer organisations from a number of key sectors, in forming the Manufacturing Trade Remedies Alliance. That is in industries such as paper, steel, chemicals, tyres and in a number of other industries as well.

What is clear in our experience, certainly from Unite members, is that we have just gone through the steel crisis, which immediately threw up a crucial or fundamental issue for the UK’s manufacturing industries, but it feeds into many other areas. Our members in the paper industry are particularly concerned. There are also the rubber tyre and ceramics industries as well as many others, which are represented not only by Unite but by the GMB, Community and many other TUC unions.

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[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q During the steel crisis, I sat in this very room as a member of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee taking quite a lot of evidence from some of you as well. It is clear that if this bit on trade remedies is got wrong, the consequences will be severe.

My worry on the public and economic tests is that, even in something like the steel crisis, there were people arguing for the benefits of very cheap steel coming into UK for construction and so forth. If those tests are not drafted correctly, frankly, we do not have any trade remedies at all. If we are going to have them in the Bill, how can we draft them to ensure that they are robust and fair? Who should be involved in the Trade Remedies Authority to ensure that that is the case?

Ben Richards: We need an opportunity to have that debate, which we will not have at all with the Bill as it is currently drafted. It will simply be written into secondary legislation—we will not have that ability. We have four or five minutes left to have a discussion about how it should be drawn up. It would take us another couple of hours. That is what we want, as a trade union movement: an involvement in these discussions and debates.

We have huge concerns about the way in which the appointments are being made to the Trade Remedies Authority. In effect, in the way that the Bill is currently written, we are not seeing one economic interest test but three. To give you a one-sentence answer about how it should be is very difficult: we want to engage in that debate. We want to have a role in that process in the future to ensure that our members are confident that those decisions are being taken with their interests in mind.

Kathleen Walker Shaw: On the Trade Remedies Authority, its structure is very important. We would like to see it set up in line with the Health and Safety Commission, where we have three employers, three trade unions and three other interests. I am a bit concerned that we are limiting that to nine, because I have a strong concern that devolved Administrations need to be involved in that process as well.

I would also like to see the Bill developed to give a role for parliamentary scrutiny—for the TRA to be liaising with structures within wider parliamentary scrutiny—on the European economic area IT, and on the decisions of the TRA, and to remove the power of the Secretary of State to veto a decision of the collective scrutiny of Parliament and the TRA on remedies. In that way, we might be some way to getting to the bottom of a justified and effective remedy.

[Peter Dowd]

Q Everybody in the Committee shares concerns about democratic oversight, industry protection, consumer protection, worker protection, the whole question of resources for HMRC, and sunset clauses or the lack of them. Taken together, it is of concern—not just at an individual level. In relation to your role in all this, I do not get the sense that you have had any substantive or significant consultation with the Government as a legitimate group of organisations. Is that a fair assessment of the situation?

Kathleen Walker Shaw: You are picking at a wound there. I was the poor person that drafted our response to the trade White Paper. I spent a lot of evenings doing that and I was more than a little concerned when I submitted that paper—less than eight hours later, the Bills were published. For people who take policy and their engagement with Government and Parliament very seriously, it was difficult not to feel the contempt with which that response that I spent hours sweating over to place before Parliament was received.

Consultation over the trade and customs Bills is vital because the Government have to get this right. There is no margin for getting this wrong. The future of Brexit hangs on these two bills: trade and the taxation cross-border. That is what our success or failure post-Brexit will hang on. I am very nervous about it, but I am more nervous about the fact that the Government are pretending that they are consulting us and they are not. We are very serious people and we want to be taken seriously. We want to help you to get the trade Bill and the cross-border trade Bill right, but we can do that only if we are a serious part of the process.

We have been engaging, but we have not been listened to. It is not enough for the Government to say, “We have consulted”, because if you miss off, “But we haven’t listened to a word you’ve said”, the quality and the integrity of that consultation is brought into severe question. It will not stop us from being delighted at being invited to come and have these conversations with you—we are not making this up, particularly Alan, who works for HMRC.

Alan Runswick: On delivery, my union wrote to Jon Thompson, the chief executive of HMRC, immediately after the referendum result to say that it was a game changer, that he needed to pause the office closure programme, stop making people redundant and evaluate this new situation. We have not even mentioned, and we will not get to, the issue of import VAT for business and for delivery. As well as customs duties, there will be a big increase in import VAT transactions. They will need to be processed, and staff will need to run a compliance regime under the new situation, to counter evasion and avoidance.

We also feel that we have not been properly consulted. We have been trying to engage the Department in serious talks about delivery, how staff can be recruited and trained and how we can retain the existing skills. We most definitely feel that we have not had those serious discussions about how HMRC can be made fit for purpose in the new Brexit position.

[The Chair]

There are no further questions from Members, so I thank the witnesses for their evidence this afternoon.



Examination of Witness

Joel Blackwell gave evidence.

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[Mel Stride]

Q Given where we are with secondary legislation and Brexit, which means there is rather a lot of it, can I clarify that your position is not that we should not have negative-procedure SIs, but just that some of them should perhaps be affirmative?

Joel Blackwell: Yes, absolutely. The negative procedure plays an important role. There is legislation that is extremely technical and almost administrative in nature, for which the negative procedure is appropriate. In our view, the scrutiny procedures in the Commons—not in the Lords—are inadequate. Our position is not that the negative procedure should not exist, but that something needs to be done to improve MPs’ ability to debate those SIs.

[Peter Dowd]

Q This is one of the biggest political and constitutional shifts that most people in this room can remember. The House of Lords Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, to which you referred, said it is a massive transfer of powers from the House of Commons to the Crown. There is also the general issue of all the delegated powers that go with the withdrawal Bill, this Bill and the Trade Bill. In those circumstances, do you agree that this is more like a new constitutional precedent for a land grab by the Government from Parliament, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the aptitude or the adroitness of Members of Parliament? It is about a constitutional and parliamentary stitch-up.

Joel Blackwell: I do not think I would agree in those terms. There are serious constitutional issues raised by the withdrawal Bill and the related Brexit Bills. This is not the first time that the Government have used Henry VIII powers. This is not the first time, nor will it be the last time, that we see framework legislation, or skeleton legislation. In all honesty, the use of delegated legislation is unavoidable in legislating for Brexit. Framework legislation is probably unavoidable for Bills that deal with issues such as welfare and indirect tax law, particularly if they are subject to change and involve highly complex and technical detail. The key is parliamentary oversight of that.

There are numerous ways that you can constrain powers in Bills. We have seen some attempts to do that in the House of Commons, and no doubt we will see that happen in the House of Lords with the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. Fundamentally, though, although you can try to tightly define powers or to insert a list of actions that you are not able to use SIs for, you are ultimately going to have to confront the inadequate procedures for scrutinising negative and affirmative instruments in the House of Commons; otherwise, it will not matter. If you really want to take back control and have meaningful and effective oversight of delegated legislation, you have to focus on improving the negative and affirmative procedures in the House of Commons.

[Peter Dowd]

Q Given what you have just told us, do you acknowledge at the very least that the concerns in the House of Lords and all the delegation around the Trade Bill, the withdrawal Bill, this Bill and other Bills to come, show a significant constitutional shift in the balance of power between the Executive and the legislature for whatever reason? I am not making a judgment. Do you think that is a fair assessment?

Joel Blackwell: I am not sure it is a significant shift; the problem has always been that the balance between Parliament and the Executive in the control of delegated legislation has always been on the side of the Executive. We have always argued, and have argued in this report, that you need to redress that balance, and part of that would be to improve the scrutiny procedures that I have mentioned. I would not say that there has been a fundamental shift from this Bill onwards. There has always been an issue regarding the balance of power in the use and scrutiny of delegated legislation.

[Peter Dowd]

Q Just so I am clear—

[The Chair]

Very quickly, because two people want to come in.

[Peter Dowd]

Are you saying, therefore, that this is neither a quantitative nor a qualitative shift of power from Parliament to—

[The Chair]

I think that question has been posed in three different ways, so unless Mr Blackwell has anything else to say, I am not sure he can add to it.

Joel Blackwell: No.

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[Anneliese Dodds]

Q I have two quick questions. One is to ask you to comment on the use of not just secondary but tertiary legislation in this Bill on public notice law. That would be helpful for us. Secondly, in our previous discussion we talked a lot about the new Trade Remedies Authority, and some of the witnesses suggested that the Secretary of State will be able to overrule its suggestions, without, it appears, any parliamentary process underlying that. I wonder whether the Hansard Society has any comments on that.

Joel Blackwell: On the first point, with regards to sub-delegation or tertiary legislation and this use of public notice, the fact that they will not be subject to any parliamentary scrutiny is concerning. We basically reiterate the points made in the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee: that if public notices can do the same as regulations they should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny, just as regulations would be. Sub-delegation is an issue for us because there is a lack of parliamentary scrutiny. In some cases it might not be appropriate, but it should still be considered as usual practice, and at the moment it appears not to be.

With regard to the Trade Remedies Authority, the Hansard Society has not really considered that yet. My colleague Brigid has probably, as I speak, just finished on the Trade Bill, so I am happy to write to the Committee about our points on that.

[Peter Dowd]

Q On the point about tertiary, are you saying that you have fundamental issues with tertiary legislation?

Joel Blackwell: The fact that it is usually not subject to any parliamentary scrutiny is of concern to us.

[Mel Stride]

Q On that specific point: if, for example, HMRC was to produce a small amount of guidance on a small part of the customs process, why would it make sense to make that subject to potentially being a regulation, rather than having it as a public notice? Why would you want to clog Parliament up with all these additional items, which may be very insignificant in some senses—in a grander sense?

Joel Blackwell: It is a good point. Specifically on this Bill, it is the fact that it says it can do what regulations could do and that would be an issue. In terms of guidance codes of practice, they are laid before Parliament and that is not the case for this Bill. You would not necessarily have to clog up the system with things that are extremely administrative in nature, but there is the fact that Parliament is delegating a legislative power to the Government and if you can do what is done in regulations, it would make sense that they should be subject to the same level of parliamentary scrutiny as those regulations.

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[Nic Dakin]

Q When the Home Office had its e-border thing, it appeared to fail through lack of engagement with key partners. How much engagement have you had with HMRC on the new CDS system? Are you confident that it is getting to the right place?

Robert Windsor: I will take the lead on that, because the freight borders are heavily engaged in this. CDS has been an ongoing project for about three and a half years. Customs did quite a lot of research with industry on what its requirements were. They have been doing a development stage, which, I have to be honest, is highly technical and way beyond anything that I can understand, although software suppliers and the community service providers have been part of the technical workshops on it. They are now starting to talk directly to us and, as a trade association, we are receiving quarterly updates on the project. I really do not want to comment on whether we think it is going to succeed or be delivered on time, because at the moment it is still under development. Part of the problem that they have, which is not of the team’s making, is that some of the data elements are still to be defined within the Union customs code, such as the format of a unique consignment reference. That matter still needs to be resolved.

Richard Ballantyne: This is a technical area, and Robert and his colleagues will be concentrating on that, but all three of us sit on the Joint Customs Consultative Committee, which is HMRC’s main stakeholder committee, and there are opportunities to get briefings on CDS. I feel personally that if we want the information, it is there.

Tim Reardon: What I would say on CDS is that it is an importers and exporters system. As carriers, we have very little interface with it, but our engagement with Revenue and Customs has been constant and continual since the referendum result, when it became apparent that there was a significant new element of uncertainty about whether the 40% of the UK’s international trade that arrives and leaves in trucks on ferries was going to be able to continue doing as it did.

Richard Ballantyne: Yes, at a very general level, ports touch many Government Departments in terms of policy regulation, and of all the Departments, HMRC has been the most forthcoming since the referendum. The amount of engagement has been quite unprecedented. That is not necessarily to speak negatively about the other Departments, but HMRC has really taken the lead.

[Peter Dowd]

Q I want to talk about the Joint Customs Consultative Committee. I understand that you are all members. How often has it been convened in the past year, for example? Are there any plans to increase the regularity of its meetings in the run-up to Brexit? What sorts of things have you been discussing at those meetings—maybe the last two or three, for example?

Robert Windsor: The Joint Customs Consultative Committee meets three times a year, and it covers areas of strategy that are impacting on importers, exporters, freight forwarders, shipping lines, whatever. Since Brexit, the JCCC has established sub-committees specifically dealing with Brexit as an issue and that group, if I remember correctly, meets about four times a year.

[The Chair]

Before we go too far down a route that is not to do with this Bill, I hope that you can get your remarks back on track. I know you are answering Mr Dowd’s question, but the discussion seems to be somewhat off the message.

Richard Ballantyne: This Bill, this legislation, will be considered by that group.

[Peter Dowd]

Q I am trying to get to the heart of this. It is absolutely important to the Bill, to be frank, Mrs Main, because it is about the consultation on the Bill via that particular body. That goes directly to the heart of the ability to tease out those discussions that are taking place and how they have informed the Bill. I am trying to tease out from our witnesses the extent to which they can engage with the Bill and help to form it. I will come on to a question or two to tease that out a bit further.

Robert Windsor: There was consultation about the White Paper but there has been no consultation about the actual Bill as it has come out.

Tim Reardon: The clauses of the Bill were not exposed to consultation at all before the Bill was published, as far as I am aware, and certainly not through the forum of the JCCC.

Richard Ballantyne: No—we are all on circulation lists so we get the information directly but, as you both say, it has not been formally considered, although part of that is because this has been quite a quick process. When we had the proposals to update CEMA—the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979—which I think was four or five years ago, there was time and consideration at the JCCC, so perhaps we had a better experience last time .

[Peter Dowd]

Q May I follow through? Mr Reardon, you say in your views on the Bill—there is a bit of a preamble, but it is important to get this in:

“The Government’s White Paper…outlined an intention to apply a requirement for the goods in such vehicles to be declared prior to shipment so that, on arrival in the port, they can pass straight through in all but exceptional circumstances”.

You go on:

“Schedule 7, paragraph 28, appears to create powers for such an arrangement but is expressed in notably vague terms: their practicability will depend absolutely on detail that is absent.”

How significant is that at this stage, given that we are 15 months away from Brexit? When do you think that you will actually need the detail, especially in light of the fact that you have not been consulted on the Bill in the first place?

Tim Reardon: We would have liked it about four years ago, to be honest. The Bill—that particular paragraph in the schedule—provides for the concept that nothing may be shipped unless the vehicle operator has checked that a declaration has been put in. As a concept, that is unobjectionable, and it has the potential to work, but the devil is entirely in the detail.

Who will the vehicle operator be deemed to be, for example? The Bill widens the definition of a vehicle beyond what anyone in this room I would imagine understands a vehicle to be, so it is no longer simply a thing on wheels but a ship maybe, a train or an aircraft—all of those fall within the scope of “vehicle”. The vehicle operator is any one of those parties in the chain. What is the process by which that business will be required to establish that something has happened? All of those things are critical details to work out whether the thing can work or not.

The issue for us is that it is impossible to tell purely from the powers in the Bill that we will end up with a system that works. We might, and I have absolutely no doubt that everyone’s intention is to create a system that works, but it is impossible to say on the basis of something that is as vaguely drawn as the Bill that it will work. If this is the sole stage of the process where any scrutiny is applied, then clearly one has to take a great deal on trust and faith.

[Peter Dowd]

Q You said, partly jokily, that you would have liked it four years ago, but in practical terms when do you think it will be? I must ask the question again. Given that there are 15 months to go before the button is pressed so to speak, when would you reasonably expect to be consulted on the detail, basically? At what point do you think it would be reasonable for you to be consulted within the next 15 months in practicable terms?

Tim Reardon: To be honest, the answer depends on how different where we end up is from where we are now, because what takes time is changing of business processes, construction and reprogramming of IT systems and—worst-case scenario—civil works in terminal infrastructure development. All those things have lead times. How long the lead time needs to be depends entirely on what it is you are trying to do and how much you are trying to change from the current practical reality. Until we can define how different the end state is from where we are now, then—to be honest—it is impossible to put a timeframe on how long it will take to get there.

Richard Ballantyne: To follow on from that, all three of us were at a meeting this morning on border processes and so on, and one of the things we were talking about is the fact that the operators—the port operators, the carriers, the customs providers and other specialists—will not want to make any investments until they know exactly what the detail of the deal is and when that is firmed up.

[The Chair]

I call Kirsty Blackman. I am aware the Minister responding to the debate in the Chamber is on his feet, so we may well be interrupted for a vote; it will be up to the Committee to decide whether it wishes to resume with this panel after the vote.

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[Anneliese Dodds]

Q I have a question related to what happened back in 2015 with the first major Operation Stack problems in Kent. They were not caused initially by developments on the British side; it was due to problems on the French side. The capacity issues on the French side were very relevant. To what extent are you aware of activity happening in our partner ports to prepare for a no-deal scenario? Are you discovering that talking to your colleagues in other countries? Are you aware of the UK Government doing anything to promote that preparedness?

Richard Ballantyne: The British Ports Association is part of the European Sea Ports Organisation, which has a meeting tomorrow on Brexit that I am going to. It includes some of the main UK-facing ports, such as Dublin, Zeebrugge, Calais and beyond. It has been quite difficult. Some of those ports are state-owned, and it is quite difficult for the UK Government to talk with them, although there have been a number of information-type visits looking at customs arrangements as they are and what the operational situation will look like post-Brexit. We have good conversations.

In terms of what is going on with the customs authorities in those countries, it is varied. There is a French customs taskforce—that is an internal taskforce—that I think the ports there are plugged into. I went to see the French ports association to talk about Brexit, and it seemed on top of things, but it is a difficult one. There is a lot of mystery there. Just as the UK Government cannot divulge all the discussions they are having, the ports cannot divulge everything to us. They have to remember that negotiations are being led through the European Commission, so that is the correct avenue.

[Peter Dowd]

Q On the point of infrastructure, which you raised before—interestingly, you raised a point about state-owned ports—our ports are fully privatised. That makes it more difficult in a sense for the Government to control their development, which is understandable. Have you got any evidence that the Government have taken proactive action to improve the infrastructure around the ports in the light of the potential challenges you are facing? I say that as a Member of Parliament who has a pretty big port in his constituency.

Richard Ballantyne: As you know, the ports industry in the UK is market-led and market-driven. We have three types of port: local authority-owned ports, which operate on a commercial basis in competition with private ports; full private sector ports, or equity ports; and the trust ports, which are Dover, Aberdeen, London and so on, and they are still run on a private basis and pay corporation tax on any profits they make. Significantly, all of them are financially and strategically independent of Government decisions. That has worked. Effectively, the Government have delegated the authority to run the ports because they understand that you need technical experts to manage such things as safety and the commercial arrangements.

In terms of what is going on at the moment, the Government do influence the connections to ports. Ports have publicly owned road and rail connections. Following a lot of lobbying from my association and others, the Department for Transport is undertaking a port connectivity study, which is not about spending any money on connections but about assessing the state of the road and rail connectivity of the UK ports industry, and how we get ports more on the radar when big investment decisions like the road investment strategy and rail strategies are made and Treasury spending budgets are allocated. It is about us, perhaps, rising up. There has been a lot of big-ticket passenger-focused spend, such as HS2, Heathrow and Crossrail. Freight has felt a bit of a poor relation. We are working to improve that, but unfortunately freight does not vote, so it is a challenge for us.

[Emma Hardy]

Q I am so delighted that you said that. I am completely biased, coming from Hull where there are major problems with port connectivity. Is that something you have already given recommendations to Government on, or is it something you are working on now?

Richard Ballantyne: The Department is considering a lot of feedback from the ports. I know Sir John Randall, a former Member of this House, oversaw that as an independent chair. The officials are now working on the final detail. I hope it will make a number of recommendations, and it should be out within the next month. As I say, I think Sir John went to visit Hull.

[Emma Hardy]

He probably got stuck on the way there. That is good news, thank you.

[Peter Dowd]

Q I want to ask a question, Chair, but I am conscious of the interruption that may come. This question is specifically to Mr Windsor, on the information you provided to us. In that document you said,

“It has been commented that the Bill is not as precise as Members would have hoped for”—

I suspect you were a diplomat in a different life—

“in terms of either the areas covered by the legislation or in certain cases the powers vested in the authorities. Also from our understanding this document will have to be read with other documents such as CEMA and secondary legislation which still has to be written which has the potential to cause confusion and thus perhaps hinder compliance from Trades perspective.”

To what extent will compliance be hindered? How extensive, how comprehensive, how problematic will that compliance be?

Robert Windsor: It is always more difficult where you have more than one source to draw the compliance requirements from. One of the things that my members have been used to are the codified laws and regulations that have come from Europe, in particular customs codes and things like that. They got more complex as time went on. Basically, there was a single point of reference, so people would go to that and at that point they would pretty much know what was written, how it could be interpreted in different member states—[Interruption.]

[The Chair]

Order. We will have to have 15 minutes’ suspension and return after the vote.

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[The Chair]

Order. We are quorate. As has been explained, Mr Stace is giving evidence at another Committee and will be joining us somewhat later. We will now hear oral evidence from UK Steel, the Chemical Industries Association and the British Ceramic Confederation. This sitting will finish at 5 o’clock. Can I ask the witnesses who are here to introduce yourselves for the record?

Dr Laura Cohen: I am Laura Cohen, chief executive of the British Ceramic Confederation. I also chair the Manufacturing Trade Remedies Alliance, a group of seven manufacturing associations, three trade unions and the TUC with an interest in trade remedies.

Ian Cranshaw: Good afternoon. I am Ian Cranshaw, from the Chemical Industries Association. I am the head of international trade and the head of business development.

[Peter Dowd]

Q For the benefit of the Committee, can you briefly explain the current trade remedies in place and managed by the European Union?

Dr Laura Cohen: The EU has a number of trade remedies in place, the transition of which is being considered by the Department for International Trade at the moment. In the ceramics sector, which I am probably best placed to talk about, we have two measures in place, in tableware and in tiles. These are EU anti-dumping tariffs against Chinese-manufactured products. In tableware, until 2004, Chinese imports had been fairly steady, at around £20 million a year. They then rocketed to £160 million a year. The anti-dumping tariff was introduced in 2013. The Chinese imports have held steady, but even that has allowed our members to stabilise and invest, and employment has increased by 20% to 5,000 UK jobs since 2013.

On tiles, there were about £2 million to £4 million of imports in 2004, and that increased pretty rapidly to £30 million. Anti-dumping duties started in 2011, and they have now fallen back to about half that. Please note, we have just had a renewal in Europe of the measures, on 22 November 2018, following an expiry review. The dumping margin had increased during that period. UK manufacturing employment has increased by 40% to 1,000-plus UK jobs since 2011, so that is good news for UK jobs, but both measures really benefited the UK supply chain, not least the kaolin and ball clay industry in Devon and Cornwall, which employs about 1,500 people. That is part of the 2,500 jobs in the materials supply section of our membership.

Just to bring this example to life, the Minister, Mel Stride, met British Ceramic Tile in his constituency, which has about 400 manufacturing jobs, last week, and it reinforced the message. The Minister also has two Imerys clay quarries at Newbridge and Ringslade in his constituency, which supply the sector.

I just wanted to point out something about the renewal. The Chinese spare capacity increased between 2011 and 2016 by more than four times the entire European Union consumption. The European Commission was very concerned by this development. The extra capacity is propped up by state distortion. I do not say that lightly, because the evidence is quite clear. In December 2017, the European Commission produced a report on the Chinese economy which found gross subsidies and state interference in the manufacturing industry. I quote from the report. The first parts show:

“The overall picture that emerges concerning the framework in which economic activity takes place in China is one where the State continues to exert a decisive influence on the allocation of resources and on their prices.”

The second part of the almost 500-page report says:

“The analysis shows that the allocation and pricing of the various factors of production is influenced by the State in a very significant manner. The third part…examines a number of sectors. These include steel, aluminium, chemicals and ceramics. The sectors have been selected because they are the ones that have featured most in the EU’s anti-dumping investigations since the conclusion of the Uruguay Round. Taking the perspective of individual sectors allows a closer look at the specific rules and dynamics in that sector, but this examination also echoes the findings in the preceding two parts, i.e. the significant distortions resulting from the specific features of the Chinese economy and those found in relation to the various factors of production.”

The report noted that the State Council in China combines the implementation of the belt and road strategy, to actively conquer markets such as Europe. Therefore, anti-dumping remedies are there when competitors do not play by the rules.

[The Chair]

That was a very comprehensive answer. I hope we can condense further answers slightly.

[Peter Dowd]

Q It sets the scene and gives really good context to my next question. Can you explain the importance of strong trade remedies and the difference between having those strong trade remedies and what some might call “protectionist measures”? Can you give the Committee a feel for that? It has been touched on today that, somehow, if you have remedies it is protectionist.

Ian Cranshaw: I may not go into the same detail that Laura did—I am sure I will receive some encouraging signs.

Just looking at some of the bigger numbers so that we all know how many trade remedies we are talking about, I think the EU has something like 130: 50-plus in steel alone; 27 in chemicals; and I think Laura mentioned a couple in ceramics. Again, you need to drill down and understand what the UK’s standing is in those 27 in chemicals across Europe. I believe there is just one where we have gone out, and I know there is a call for evidence by the Department for International Trade of all UK standing in all of the wider remedies in place. That puts it into context.

Again, I would hold my hand up and say that we are all on quite new ground in this area, apart from UK Steel, which has been incredibly active over the past couple of years. I held a roundtable with some member companies a year ago and got all of the major players in the UK chemical industry. That is interesting, because more than 70% of UK production is by companies headquartered overseas—so that was not necessarily UK companies.

It was very interesting that, when I talked to one of the German companies about trade remedies and trade defence instruments—I will not mention the name, but you will probably work it out—its perspective was, “Well, we have no trade remedy experience or personnel in the UK at all.” Nor did the trade association. We have happily contributed to EU development of policy, but actually, in leading on this, we had no expertise.

The German company pondered for a moment and said, “Actually, if in the future we had to raise a trade issue with the EU—us accusing it or it accusing us of dumping or subsidy—the UK transplant would have to ask our headquarter operation for advice and policy in the expertise in which to raise a concern or complaint to the WTO.” That was quite interesting. I am not sure if I answered the question, but that was a specific example.

[Peter Dowd]

Q Okay. Let us try to tease that out, because that touches on something Dr Cohen alluded to. Let us try to get the difference between what you consider to be a remedy and protectionism. They are becoming interchangeable in some people’s minds.

Dr Laura Cohen: A remedy is addressing unfair competition when overseas manufacturers are not playing by the rules. The ceramics industry and the tiles industry, such as in the Minister’s constituency, has invested very heavily in state-of-the-art, energy-efficient manufacturing with digital printing technology. Given a level playing field, it can take on the world. All we want is a level playing field, and trade remedies allow us to ensure we can get that free trade.

[The Chair]

Before we go any further, I would like to welcome Mr Gareth Stace, director of UK Steel. I know that you have been very busy on another Committee, so I am glad you have joined us. Do you want to come in on this? You got the drift of the question.

Gareth Stace: Yes. Apologies for arriving late, and thank you.

I would like to look at it from a different angle in terms of using what is the trade remedy and what are protections. The steel sector thrives on free, liberalised trade. A third of all steel produced in the world is traded across borders. We actually have zero tariffs—that is, zero customs tariffs—for steel between developed countries. What does that do? It enables us to be even more liberalised in our free trade. Trade remedies is a safety valve to enable that free trade to take place. I would say that, without trade remedies, we will actually see a rise in protectionism—it is not that with trade remedies we will see a rise in protectionism. Trade remedies allow for free trade to take place; it is not the other way round.

Ian Cranshaw: Within the Manufacturing Trade Remedies Alliance, which we are a member of, we actually do not use the phrase “protection”. There is a global rule-kit of trade, and all we are asking for is that people play by those rules and, if they do not, remedies come in. I was here listening to some of the earlier evidence and there was a balance of the consumer or the producer. Our view has always been that it is in the interests of all parties that inappropriate trade practices are removed—just play by the rules.

[Peter Dowd]

Q What assessment have you made of any trade remedies outlined in the Bill, or that you might be aware are going into the Bill, and their effectiveness to combat the dumping of goods from countries with heavily distorted economies?

Dr Laura Cohen: We have three major concerns with the Bill that we think, taken together, will give much lower duties than the EU, and that will attract dumped products from around the world. Those three main concerns at a high level are: first, the measurement of the dumping margin—the calculations and the methodology —particularly where there are distorted economies, and the absence of a methodology in the Bill; secondly, the combinations of various economic interests tests and public interests tests, and I will go into more detail on those; and thirdly, this lesser duty rule, and that is very much an alliance position. Overall, the effectiveness of trade remedies depends so much on the detail of the legislation that is completely absent in the Bill.

Much detail may be in secondary legislation eventually, as we heard from the Hansard Society, but that may be without much parliamentary input: it is likely to be a negative procedure. Even worse, much may be in guidance written by officials with hardly any parliamentary scrutiny at all. Important changes going through the European Parliament and the EU in trade remedies legislation have had extensive scrutiny, and important amendments have been made by MEPs and ex-MEPs, often working across parties. We need a similar level of political oversight in the UK system, but to do that the Bill needs alterations in those three areas. We are concerned because businesses, jobs and investment are at stake. I can go into more detail on those, or my colleagues can.

[The Chair]

We have quite a few questions, so maybe somebody can come back to you on that point if they need to. Mr Stace, did you wish to come in at this point?

Gareth Stace: There is a lost opportunity in the Bill in terms of looking at what is happening in the EU, which Laura has highlighted, particularly on changes that are taking place at EU-level on how it tackles the lesser duty rule—the UK Government have firmly said, “No, we are not going to follow that; we are going to do something different”—and how it treats non-market economies or economies that subsidise their industries. The Government are saying, “Yeah, we will follow that,” but because the detail is not really there, as Laura said, are they going to follow it to the letter, which would be great, or just broadly in principle? That is that whole thing of everything—I am sure you had already heard that before I arrived.

The problem with this Bill, and also with the Trade Bill, is that the proof will always be in the pudding. The Government can promise anything they like, but more than a third of all tariffs in place affect the steel sector and it hits us hard, therefore, if this system, when it comes out, is not appropriate for what it is trying to do. That is why we, in this primary legislation stage, are putting that in so much detail. Why are we doing that? Because we just do not know whether it will be in the secondary legislation or the guidance. That is not our fault; we have to set out our case in full now, at this stage. If the Government said to us, “Honestly, trust us completely and utterly. It will be in secondary or it will be in guidance, to the letter of what you are asking for,” then great, but at the moment we are sitting here very much in the dark. When we talk about day one from when we leave the EU, is that day one next year or day one in 2021? We do not know. If it is next year, we should be planning right now for doing something very different very soon.

Ian Cranshaw: One of the issues is the fact that these things cannot be rushed. We know that they are very complicated. The trade defence instruments modernisation programme in Europe took more than four years, and that is just in modernising a regime that has been in place for 40 years. One of the important concessions we got out of the EU somehow in the chemical sector, which we refer to as an enabling industry or a foundation industry, was about the importance of raw materials. On raw materials, the EU said, “Okay, if the raw material cost is 17% of the overall product cost, we will take in the raw material cost because we are aware of distortions that take place across many markets.”

We have one UK producer, which is specific in the UK, for which the energy cost is 40% of the total costs of the individual company, so it is hugely important. Its remedy is against Russia and gas coming out of Russia. Russia not only subsidises that industry, but does not observe the same environmental standards as we do. It has had every opportunity to do so, but it does not. There is a wider responsibility at play and that goes back to the comment earlier about it being in everyone’s interest to get this right.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nic Dakin]

Q On timescale, is the current Bill likely to mean that things will take longer to get done than currently with the European regime, or will it make things quicker? I am sure that we want everything to be slicker and easier when we come out of the European Union.

Gareth Stace: The timescales are not set out clearly enough. I do not want to go over old ground, but the hoops to go through at all the different stages will only lengthen that process. I am sure that will happen, calculating injury and dumping, but if was just dumping, that would happen very quickly.

I might have said already that in the US, provisional measures come in after 45 days and in the EU they come after nine months, which is coming down to seven. The UK has the opportunity to say that we will do it at six months, and we always—unless there are circumstances where it is not appropriate—apply retrospective duties of three months. So you get provisional duties coming after three months, which sends a very strong message to the market: do not dump your illegally traded goods here in the UK.

Ian Cranshaw: I think we would all be disappointed if we could not expedite the EU system, when it has to canvass views across 28 member states. We would have to canvass views in just the UK, so if we cannot bring that nine months—soon to be seven months—down further, an opportunity will have been missed.

Dr Laura Cohen: There is a tremendous opportunity here for Brexit. If an industry is suffering injury and dumping, it is really important that it gets sorted out quickly.

[Peter Dowd]

Q What involvement have you had in your respective sectors with the Department for International Trade on the creation of any potential trade remedies in the Bill? We are expecting a Division shortly, so a short answer would be helpful.

Gareth Stace: From my point of view of steel, this time last year we had written five very detailed papers that DIT officials have been very pleased to receive. We have had very good engagement with them, so I could not actually fault that. We probably have had some difference of opinion, so although I heard, “We agree with 95% of what you are putting out,” I said, “That’s fine, but it’s the 5% that is crucial.” Like everything with Brexit, the issue is around that 5% and we do not understand the detail around that.

We continue to engage with DIT, but we have provided all the information we can; there is nothing more we can provide. That is why we are disappointed: in the face of this Bill in primary legislation, we have not seen the detail that the Government had the opportunity to put in.

Dr Laura Cohen: From our sectors, I echo what Gareth has said. As an association, we have had really good engagement with DIT officials. BCC has had four meetings as an association with Ministers or Secretaries of State in the past year. That is really appreciated. However, we have made our case very clearly and I do not know what else we can say. We need to ensure that businesses, investment and jobs get the best possible deal from Brexit.

Ian Cranshaw: As a group, we met Greg Hands. The Minister gave us a considerable amount of time. He had been briefed well and he understood our issues, but he just did not accept them—he had a different view. That is fine; we have to go away and refine our position and give the evidence that was required. Some of the evidence that he called on we would call less than proven.

We know that there was a discussion earlier about the make-up of the TRA and who helped formulate the Government view. They say that for the review on trade remedies they went to a very liberal think-tank and asked what the view is on this, so of course they got a very predictable response. We would have questioned whether they had taken in some of the advice and evidence from business, as they might have got a rounder view of what was required.

Gareth Stace: It was not a liberal think-tank, but a company that represents the Chinese steel sector against the EU. They could have chosen many; why did they choose that company?

[The Chair]

That is not for me to answer. There are no further questions from Members, so I thank the witnesses for their very comprehensive evidence this afternoon.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(David Rutley.)