Legislation on Dangerous Dogs

Nick Fletcher Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2023 Westminster Hall

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (in the Chair)]

Before I call the hon. Member for Don Valley (Nick Fletcher) to open the debate, I wish to make a short statement about sub judice resolution. I am sure Members have relevant constituency cases that they might want to raise in the debate. I remind them that under the terms of the House’s sub judice resolution, Members should not refer to any cases where there are ongoing legal proceedings; they should also exercise caution if raising matters that are not the subject of active legal proceedings, but where discussion could prejudice ongoing police or other law enforcement investigations.

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered e-petitions 624876 and 643611 relating to legislation in respect of dangerous dogs.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Caroline.

Jack was 10. His mum, Emma, described him as “our perfect boy”. On 8 November 2021, Jack went to call on a friend. He was attacked and killed by an XL bully. Jack suffered fatal injuries. He was 10 years old, and his life was over—absolutely tragic. Jack’s mum, Emma, told me that their lives will never be the same again. The community came together and showed huge support for Emma and her family, but sadly Jack is gone forever. I have had to lead petition debates on many subjects, often in circumstances where a life has been lost, but I do not believe that I have ever had to speak when there has been a loss of life in such horrific circumstances.

We have two petitions before us for debate. The first calls for the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 to be repealed; the second calls for the Act not to include the XL bully. Having heard Emma’s story and taken evidence before today, and having seen and heard of many of these attacks, I can understand why the Government have announced a ban, but before I move on to the arguments, I will make it clear that Emma never called for the ban, as she believed that it would never happen. Shockingly, since the announcement of the ban, Emma has received real abuse from people who disagree with it. Doing that to a grieving mother is abhorrent, and I hope that if those responsible are caught, they are dealt with severely. Emma has suffered enough. Her only goal is to ensure that no one else has to go through such an ordeal. My heart goes out to her.

I will turn to the position of the Government and the petitioners. Following a concerning rise in attacks and fatalities caused by XL bully dogs, the Government have added the breed to the list of dogs banned under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. To help current owners adapt to the new laws, the changes will come into force in two stages. From 31 December 2023, it will be against the law to sell an XL bully dog, to abandon an XL bully dog or let it stray, to give away an XL bully dog, to breed from an XL bully dog and to have an XL bully in public without a lead and muzzle. From 1 February 2024, it will be a criminal offence to own an XL bully dog in England and Wales unless the dog has a certificate of exemption.

There is help with getting an exemption certificate on the Government website. If people want to keep their dog, it must be microchipped, kept on a lead and muzzled at all times when in public, kept in a secure place so that it cannot escape, and neutered. The owner must be over 16 years old, take out third-party public liability insurance against their dog injuring other people, and be able to show the certificate of exemption when asked by a police officer or council dog warden, either at the time or within five days.

[Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a good point about what the Government have laid out on their website. One of my concerns is about the ban coming in so quickly. Does he believe that the public have enough information, or know where to find the information, to enable conscientious owners who want to look after these dogs and protect them to make an informed decision? Is there enough time to ensure that the information about what is needed from responsible owners gets out?

[Nick Fletcher]

My hon. Friend is right is right to raise that point, which I will come to later in my speech.

I have discussed these petitions with many friends and colleagues. Like me, after hearing of such horrific attacks, they found it hard to believe the numbers that support repealing the ban. We have banned other dogs in the past, and these dogs are obviously dangerous, so who would not want to ban them? What is the reason? Let us explore further. During my research, I spoke to many professionals in this field; I attended six evidence sessions, and I attended the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee in October.

What has been said by the petitioners? Anita Mehdi, the creator of the main petition, states that she believes that adding another breed to the Dangerous Dogs Act is not the right way forward. She also believes that the media is to blame for fearmongering, and there is no official data on dog breeds and dog attacks. Anita hopes for a platform where accurate data can be recorded. Anita also believes that it is dangerous to class a dog by its type, when it is irresponsible owners that need to be targeted. She believes that the Calgary model is a good example that the Government should take into consideration when looking into responsible ownership. When asked about muzzles, Anita explained that responsible owners will comply and use them, but there will be owners who will not, and they need to be tackled.

Glyn Saville, a petitioner against the XL bully ban, who is here today, says that the number of XL bullies is in excess of 90,000 and that implementing the ban will therefore be very difficult. He also says that these dogs are not bred to be aggressive to humans—although some people may disagree—and that if a ban is brought into effect, families living in social housing will be at real risk of losing their pets if they wish to stay there, as landlords can refuse exempted dogs. Another petitioner, who has called for muzzles not to be part of the ban, said that her dog can now not defend itself and that it has being attacked by other dogs, since having to wear a muzzle.

Even the professionals have concerns. The British Veterinary Association stated that banning one breed will not work. The BVA representative compared it to the banning of a single weapon and explained that it may work in the short term but that the ultimate goal is surrounded by so many complex social issues that it would be difficult for it to last in the long term.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Emma, whose son, Jack, was brutally killed by an XL bully dog two years ago, is my constituent. Emma is of the opinion that, whatever happens with regards to a ban on XL bullies—the hon. Member has touched upon the enormous difficulties and complications—it is vital that we place the emphasis on tackling the whole issue of dangerous dogs. A one-off action by the Government is not enough; it can never be enough. We need a thorough, wholesale examination of dog breeding and dog training practices, and we need to look at the specific question of responsible ownership. All of those issues have to be considered so that our society is truly safer.

[Nick Fletcher]

I will be coming to many of the points that the hon. Member raises. Hopefully, the Minister can shed some light on them, too.

Both the BVA, when I spoke to its representatives at the London Vet Show, and my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Dr Hudson) raised the fact that most fatalities have occurred in people’s houses, rather than when a dog has been out. Obviously, in the house, dogs are not muzzled or on a short lead. They also asked that the Dangerous Dog Act be reviewed and highlighted that section 3 of the Act gives scope for something to be done about controlling dogs. I often say that it is not always new legislation but enforcement of existing legislation that is needed. That also needs to be looked at.

The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals explained that it wants the Government to slow down the pace of the ban coming into force, mainly because of its implications and consequences. It also raised the fact that it is becoming incredibly difficult to ensure that everyone who owns an XL bully can do what they need to do before the deadline in order to keep their dog. The RSPCA mentioned that it is seeing abandonment and relinquishment of these types of due due to unexpected costs before Christmas.The BVA highlighted that the window for neutering should be extended for another six months for dogs under seven months old, as neutering has an impact on their growth. The RSPCA suggested that there be a campaign on responsible dog ownership but also suggested that stakeholders be brought together to see what dog legislation may look like in the next five years.

In addition to my research, The Mirror is supporting the proposed Jack Lis law, which calls for a different approach to dog legislation that will include all dogs and focus on the breeding, training and sale of dogs.

There is much interest in this topic, and rightly so. I do not think that anyone who signed these petitions should be vilified. Many people understand that something needs to be done, but when experts agree that there are problems, the Government should listen. We have to stop these incidents occurring, that is for sure. If we are to ban the XL bully, the timeline for neutering definitely needs to be looked at, and we must really push for responsible ownership.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

I am genuinely conflicted about this. I was on the EFRA Select Committee when it conducted a previous inquiry into the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, which was rushed through and not fit for purpose. At the same time, my heart goes out to any family who has been affected by an XL bully dog killing someone, particularly a child. When we talk about responsible dog ownership and training courses or anything like that, my concern is that it will be the owners who are already responsible who take them up, and it is very difficult to spot an irresponsible owner until the dog has caused harm. Has the Committee looked at that?

[Nick Fletcher]

The Petitions Committee has not looked at that, but I believe that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has done. I am coming on to that in the next part of my speech.

DEFRA has had a responsible dog ownership steering group, which published a report and confirmed that the recommendations would be shared later this year. Can the Minister say when they will be shared? The Calgary model was mentioned many times during my research, so we have something that we can copy, and improve if required.

[Mark Logan (Bolton North East) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Member for giving way. In the light of the concerning incidents involving dog attacks, particularly those attributed to XL bully breeds, does he agree that the Government should shed light on their plans to implement DNA sampling and to adopt the Calgary model for dog classification in order to ensure accurate identification and classification of such dogs?

[Nick Fletcher]

I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution. We should definitely look at the Calgary model. I know that the type and breed of dogs is a contentious area, and some work needs to be done on it, but I genuinely believe that people know what type of dog they have. They know whether they have an XL bully. We need to be really careful not to let classification be used as a way of not muzzling dogs that could cause harm. That is the last thing we want.

We are an animal-loving country, but we must encourage personal responsibility when making the decision to own a pet. We must choose a dog that fits our home, our family and our lifestyle. Dog owners must ensure that they understand the costs involved and that they train their dogs correctly—and themselves, for that matter. Some say that we need to enforce chipping of dogs and have a database that accurately records all pets and any bites that have occurred, no matter how minor. We must also look at breeders to see what can be done; many breeders are good, but not all.

We must never again have to hear of another story like Emma’s. In memory of little Jack, we should work collectively to come up with the right answers for the safety of the public and of our pets—and we must do it quickly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Fletcher]

I agree with the Minister that this has been an extremely well informed and well attended debate, which has obviously gone on for quite some time.

There is still work to be done, and concerns remain on both sides of the debate. I encourage all dog owners to be extremely responsible with their pets. When dogs bite, often the first thing that people say is, “Well, it’s never done that before.” Unfortunately with some breeds, even if it has never done it before, the first time can be fatal, and we really have to consider that.

There is a huge amount of interest in this issue. I know we are a dog-loving nation, but I do not want to have to sit in front of a parent who has lost a child, or talk to a father whose daughter has scars on her legs for the rest of her life, because of a dog attack. That is what we need to stop.

A great deal is being done, however, and I am pleased to hear that the Department is doing a lot of work on responsible ownership. I have spoken to many professionals, and whether they agree with the ban or not, they accept that it is going forward; however, they do not want to be in the same place in five or 10 years’ time because we have not done anything about responsible ownership.

We also need a database and we need to enforce the chipping of dogs. We need a register of every bite incident, because one of the concerns about banning the XL bully is that there is no real data on how many bites and fatalities are associated with the dog. If we have a database and this happens with another dog in five or 10 years’ time, we can turn around to the public and say, “Look, we’ve really got the facts.”

I thank everybody who has contributed. The debate will continue on social media, and I echo what others said about my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey): that behaviour really should not happen. To everybody watching this debate, let me say that Members of this House are doing this job for the right reason: they want to make this country safe and this world a better place for us all to live in. If we take away this arena for debate because Members have been threatened, that would be a travesty. We really must keep the dialogue respectful, and that includes the petitioners, the mums and dads of children who have been affected, and those on the other side of the argument.

I thank all hon. Members once again, and I thank you, Mr Gray. I also thank the Petitions Committee, which does a huge amount of work. It is an honour to lead these debates.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered e-petitions 624876 and 643611 relating to legislation in respect of dangerous dogs.