Legislation on Dangerous Dogs

Wayne David Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2023 Westminster Hall

[Nick Fletcher]

My hon. Friend is right is right to raise that point, which I will come to later in my speech.

I have discussed these petitions with many friends and colleagues. Like me, after hearing of such horrific attacks, they found it hard to believe the numbers that support repealing the ban. We have banned other dogs in the past, and these dogs are obviously dangerous, so who would not want to ban them? What is the reason? Let us explore further. During my research, I spoke to many professionals in this field; I attended six evidence sessions, and I attended the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee in October.

What has been said by the petitioners? Anita Mehdi, the creator of the main petition, states that she believes that adding another breed to the Dangerous Dogs Act is not the right way forward. She also believes that the media is to blame for fearmongering, and there is no official data on dog breeds and dog attacks. Anita hopes for a platform where accurate data can be recorded. Anita also believes that it is dangerous to class a dog by its type, when it is irresponsible owners that need to be targeted. She believes that the Calgary model is a good example that the Government should take into consideration when looking into responsible ownership. When asked about muzzles, Anita explained that responsible owners will comply and use them, but there will be owners who will not, and they need to be tackled.

Glyn Saville, a petitioner against the XL bully ban, who is here today, says that the number of XL bullies is in excess of 90,000 and that implementing the ban will therefore be very difficult. He also says that these dogs are not bred to be aggressive to humans—although some people may disagree—and that if a ban is brought into effect, families living in social housing will be at real risk of losing their pets if they wish to stay there, as landlords can refuse exempted dogs. Another petitioner, who has called for muzzles not to be part of the ban, said that her dog can now not defend itself and that it has being attacked by other dogs, since having to wear a muzzle.

Even the professionals have concerns. The British Veterinary Association stated that banning one breed will not work. The BVA representative compared it to the banning of a single weapon and explained that it may work in the short term but that the ultimate goal is surrounded by so many complex social issues that it would be difficult for it to last in the long term.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Emma, whose son, Jack, was brutally killed by an XL bully dog two years ago, is my constituent. Emma is of the opinion that, whatever happens with regards to a ban on XL bullies—the hon. Member has touched upon the enormous difficulties and complications—it is vital that we place the emphasis on tackling the whole issue of dangerous dogs. A one-off action by the Government is not enough; it can never be enough. We need a thorough, wholesale examination of dog breeding and dog training practices, and we need to look at the specific question of responsible ownership. All of those issues have to be considered so that our society is truly safer.

[Nick Fletcher]

I will be coming to many of the points that the hon. Member raises. Hopefully, the Minister can shed some light on them, too.

Both the BVA, when I spoke to its representatives at the London Vet Show, and my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Dr Hudson) raised the fact that most fatalities have occurred in people’s houses, rather than when a dog has been out. Obviously, in the house, dogs are not muzzled or on a short lead. They also asked that the Dangerous Dog Act be reviewed and highlighted that section 3 of the Act gives scope for something to be done about controlling dogs. I often say that it is not always new legislation but enforcement of existing legislation that is needed. That also needs to be looked at.

The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals explained that it wants the Government to slow down the pace of the ban coming into force, mainly because of its implications and consequences. It also raised the fact that it is becoming incredibly difficult to ensure that everyone who owns an XL bully can do what they need to do before the deadline in order to keep their dog. The RSPCA mentioned that it is seeing abandonment and relinquishment of these types of due due to unexpected costs before Christmas.The BVA highlighted that the window for neutering should be extended for another six months for dogs under seven months old, as neutering has an impact on their growth. The RSPCA suggested that there be a campaign on responsible dog ownership but also suggested that stakeholders be brought together to see what dog legislation may look like in the next five years.

In addition to my research, The Mirror is supporting the proposed Jack Lis law, which calls for a different approach to dog legislation that will include all dogs and focus on the breeding, training and sale of dogs.

There is much interest in this topic, and rightly so. I do not think that anyone who signed these petitions should be vilified. Many people understand that something needs to be done, but when experts agree that there are problems, the Government should listen. We have to stop these incidents occurring, that is for sure. If we are to ban the XL bully, the timeline for neutering definitely needs to be looked at, and we must really push for responsible ownership.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Lavery]

The hon. Lady makes a positive and accurate point. My family dog—it is not mine, but my son’s—Olive, is a beautiful young puppy, but I am pleased that she has shorter legs. If she had had longer legs, I’m telling you that somebody would be saying that she was a dangerous dog. But she is one of the most wonderful animals ever. The hon. Lady makes a valid point.

Staffies—Staffordshire bull terriers—are fantastic animals. Anybody with any expertise in the dog world knows about Staffordshire bull terriers. There will be the odd bad one in any breed, by the way: there can be bad labradors and bad retrievers. But what is being said is that we need to look at dangerous dogs, not just XL bullies. I am wondering: who is going to police this? Who is going to be knocking on the doors with a tape measure? As has been mentioned, a lot of families are concerned that their dogs might be classified because they look like something. They might lose a loving pet—it is not right.

I urge the Minister to think about two main points. We have to ensure that people follow Government legislation and what has been put out there. It is essential that they do that. The Government have to pause and review this entire legislation and come forward with amendments to the Dangerous Dogs Act, not just focus solely on one potential breed that might be considered to look like something that it might not be. It is absolutely crazy. At the same time, please do not think that I do not want any legislation. I want to ensure that not a single person is mauled again by any dogs, anywhere in this country. I would support whatever we can do to do that properly—properly, man.

Another real point is the fear of dumping before the 31 December deadline. A huge issue is that people will dump these dogs, whether that is because they cannot afford it or they do not understand the legislation. We then have the issue that, if the dogs are put into an animal rescue centre after the 31 December, they cannot be removed—so the rescue centres could be inundated with dogs.

There is also a massive issue with the veterinary surgeons. If I was a vet, I would not be putting a healthy dog down. I would not. It is important that we put dangerous dogs to sleep, but I would not be putting healthy dogs down because the Government said so— I think that is really important.

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend has made a number of very good points indeed. Does he share my concern about the Government’s introduction of a ban on XL bullies? Many of the illegal breeders are quite unscrupulous individuals, as he has mentioned; if action is not taken against them, they will simply move on and create another kind of dog. As he says, the XL bully is not a distinct breed but an amalgamation of other breeds. The same thing might happen with another kind of dog if action is not taken against those illegal breeders.

[Ian Lavery]

Absolutely, that is so true. One of my final points is about unscrupulous owners and breeders. As I mentioned before, the breeders are crossbreeding these dogs with different types and what for? A lot of these owners love the fact that they can walk around with the XL bully and say, “Look at me—I’m big and I’m tough. I’ve got this dog, and I’ll set it on you.” But the vast majority of owners are responsible and they love their dogs. That is the huge issue in this debate today.

My final point is basically focused at the Minister. The letter from 31 October mentions that if an owner wants to put their dog down, the Government will give them £200 to do so. What about the people who are struggling, who have a dog, and who are looking after the dog very well? They might not be able to afford the insurance or the licence—the £92. What about the Government considering some sort of financial support to regulate and regularise good, honest owners and good, honest breeders?

--- Later in debate ---

[Christina Rees]

I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I really respect his view, which he put in a measured way.

On behalf of Hope Rescue, I urge the UK Government to consider letting rescue centres rehome XL bully types that, through no fault of their own, find themselves in a rescue centre.

[Wayne David]

The hon. Member and I visited the Hope Rescue centre in Llanharan a few months ago, where we saw and heard many moving things. I was particularly moved by the number of deformed dogs that the centre had taken from illegal dog breeders, many of which would otherwise have had to be put down. That brought home to me how illegal breeding is such a menace and really needs to be clamped down on. Does the hon. Member agree?

[Christina Rees]

I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. Not many people know this, but we were in school together many years ago at Cynffig Comprehensive School, so I always listen to his views, and I do agree with him on this.

On behalf of Hope Rescue, I urge the UK Government to consider letting rescue centres rehome XL bully types—that, through no fault of their own, find themselves in a rescue centre—subject to the exemption process and being assessed for suitable rehoming.

A friend of mine, Professor John Cooper KC, will be taking the legal challenge to the Government if the ban is not halted. Between 2016 and 2017, John and I served on the Bach commission, which was chaired by Lord Willy Bach and which provided detailed proposals on establishing the right to access justice as a fundamental and enforceable public entitlement. John has always been a staunch advocate of animal welfare both in and out of court, as well as being relentless in his representation of people who find themselves in the most vulnerable of situations. His work with dogs includes advising on the reform of the Dangerous Dogs Act—particularly the flawed breed-specific legislation regime—and advising on and drafting proposals for a more effective sentencing regime for pet theft. A former columnist for Dogs Today, John has a rescue lurcher called Lawrence.

Professor Cooper KC has stated:

“This is knee jerk legislation, which has neither maturely reflected on the wealth of evidence which is available or taken the time to reasonably consider the best ways to protect the public and act rationally in relation to the dog. It simply will not work.

Any proposed ban is no more than putting a sticking plaster over the issue as unscrupulous breeders simply move on to the next dog.

The answer according to the government’s own previous reports is an effective licensing regime, responsible ownership and stricter penalties and sentencing powers in the courts.

The law, maturely and carefully considered, can protect the public. This, tragically, goes nowhere near that.”

I cannot agree more with Professor Cooper’s words. Nor can I disagree with the heartfelt plea of Vanessa Waddon and her wonderful staff at Hope Rescue. For those reasons I call on the Government to halt the ban’s implementation, support responsible rescue centres, review the effectiveness of breed-specific legislation and carefully consider how to properly protect the public from serious and fatal dog attacks.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wayne David]

The hon. Member is making a very good case, but does he recognise the danger that, by putting the focus on this one piece of legislation and by talking generally of other issues in the future, the impression will be given that one statutory instrument will be sufficient to tackle the problem? Is there not a danger that people will come to believe that, even though we know it not to be the case?

[Dr Hudson]

The hon. Member makes an interesting point. He also made the point earlier that once we ban this type of dog, people will look to find another type of dog. I acknowledge that some unscrupulous breeders will try to develop the next status-symbol type of dog, but that should not stop us from trying to stop such attacks on people and animals. This legislation is not perfect, but what we have seen in recent times means that something needs to be done now—in addition to a holistic piece of work to address some of the issues that he has rightly raised.

I fully recognise that this is very difficult for many owners. It is very difficult for the animal welfare charities and the veterinary sector as well.