Legislation on Dangerous Dogs

Ian Lavery Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2023 Westminster Hall

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

It is, as ever, a pleasure to serve under your chairpersonship, Dame Caroline.

This is an extremely emotive issue, and I hope people understand the views of others. What the hon. Member for Don Valley (Nick Fletcher) and my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) said about 10-year-old Jack is enough to make anyone despair—it is very, very sad. My constituency has the highest number of individuals who signed the petition—nearly 3,000—and the constituency next to mine, Blyth Valley, has the second highest, so the House can see that views are split.

It is a fact that more people—it seems to be mainly young people—are being injured in such incidents. According to the police figures, there were 11,373 incidents between July 2021 and June 2022, and 13,940 this year. This cannot continue; it is absolutely desperate stuff. Just a few weeks ago, little Kaiden Burn, my constituent, was playing in the street when he was mauled by a dog. It was not muzzled or on a lead; it was running rampant through the street, but the thing is that it had done it before. The police were aware of it, but nothing happened, and that wonderful young lad was mauled while playing in his own street.

As I say, this is a very emotive issue. As a dog lover, I understand that people are concerned about losing a much loved, well behaved pet because a Government regulation considers all dogs with a certain look to be dangerous and bans them. There must be a recognition that each individual dog has its own temperament, personality and character. I agree with a number of the comments made by the hon. Member for Don Valley, the RSPCA and other organisations: banning dogs merely based on what they look like is not the best approach. The latest breed to be treated in this manner, which is of course why we are here today, is the American XL bully. I understand the anxiety of responsible owners of those dogs or dogs that simply look like that breed, but we must recognise that there is a problem with dangerous dogs: they have caused far too many deaths and serious injuries, and the numbers are increasing. Not all owners have had the training or have the knowledge required to own certain types of dogs.

There are many problems, but one of the core ones is the horrendous increase in unscrupulous backyard breeders of dogs of this nature. Some people think they can make a few bob out of selling the dogs, but they do not have a clue what they are doing and it is causing absolute mayhem. Some of the legislation that has been put in place tackles that to a certain degree, but the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 is inflexible, crude and fails to address the complex issues that many hon. Members have mentioned. As a consequence, it fails in its stated aim of protecting people from dog attacks, so a fresh approach and more sophisticated legislation on dangerous dogs is needed. We should recognise that this is not just about the XL bully; it is about dangerous dogs.

We talk about the XL bullies, but what is an XL bully? Basically, it is a crossbreed. We cannot just say, “Well that dog looks like an XL bully,” and make some measurement so it qualifies to be euthanised. That is not the right approach—it really is not. A lot of these XL bullies are absolutely wonderful dogs. I bet most people in here have a pet of their own, and they would not want somebody coming knocking on their door saying that their dog looked like it was of a certain breed, “So unfortunately, my friend, if you don’t have the papers required under the amendments to the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, we will have to take it away and put it down.” That really is not the right approach, understanding the families who suffered so greatly because of dangerous dogs.

The information sent out says that if the dog meets certain characteristics, it might be considered as an XL bully—what does that mean? It is not about whether someone has an XL bully, but if their dog’s breed might be an XL bully. The hon. Member for Bolton North East (Mark Logan) made a really fair point: there needs to be a bit of definition. I understand that if we check the DNA of any particular dog, it will go back to a million years ago and have different characteristics of different breeds. If we look at a dalmation, we know it is a dalmation because it has black spots and a white coat. However, things are not the same for XL bullies.

[Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman makes such a powerful point. I have been struck by how constructive the correspondence from both sides has been on this issue, given how emotive it is. As a mum, I find it devastating to think about children being mauled. But a constituent wrote to me and said:

“Although I do not own an XL Bully, family members and close friends own Staffordshire terriers, Labrador crosses, and other bully crosses, which have been proved by DNA not to be XL Bully’s, although, under the current guidelines, would incorrectly see them be classified as XL Bully’s.”

The issue is sending shivers up the spines of many pet owners, and it is incumbent on us to think it through very carefully.

[Ian Lavery]

The hon. Lady makes a positive and accurate point. My family dog—it is not mine, but my son’s—Olive, is a beautiful young puppy, but I am pleased that she has shorter legs. If she had had longer legs, I’m telling you that somebody would be saying that she was a dangerous dog. But she is one of the most wonderful animals ever. The hon. Lady makes a valid point.

Staffies—Staffordshire bull terriers—are fantastic animals. Anybody with any expertise in the dog world knows about Staffordshire bull terriers. There will be the odd bad one in any breed, by the way: there can be bad labradors and bad retrievers. But what is being said is that we need to look at dangerous dogs, not just XL bullies. I am wondering: who is going to police this? Who is going to be knocking on the doors with a tape measure? As has been mentioned, a lot of families are concerned that their dogs might be classified because they look like something. They might lose a loving pet—it is not right.

I urge the Minister to think about two main points. We have to ensure that people follow Government legislation and what has been put out there. It is essential that they do that. The Government have to pause and review this entire legislation and come forward with amendments to the Dangerous Dogs Act, not just focus solely on one potential breed that might be considered to look like something that it might not be. It is absolutely crazy. At the same time, please do not think that I do not want any legislation. I want to ensure that not a single person is mauled again by any dogs, anywhere in this country. I would support whatever we can do to do that properly—properly, man.

Another real point is the fear of dumping before the 31 December deadline. A huge issue is that people will dump these dogs, whether that is because they cannot afford it or they do not understand the legislation. We then have the issue that, if the dogs are put into an animal rescue centre after the 31 December, they cannot be removed—so the rescue centres could be inundated with dogs.

There is also a massive issue with the veterinary surgeons. If I was a vet, I would not be putting a healthy dog down. I would not. It is important that we put dangerous dogs to sleep, but I would not be putting healthy dogs down because the Government said so— I think that is really important.

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend has made a number of very good points indeed. Does he share my concern about the Government’s introduction of a ban on XL bullies? Many of the illegal breeders are quite unscrupulous individuals, as he has mentioned; if action is not taken against them, they will simply move on and create another kind of dog. As he says, the XL bully is not a distinct breed but an amalgamation of other breeds. The same thing might happen with another kind of dog if action is not taken against those illegal breeders.

[Ian Lavery]

Absolutely, that is so true. One of my final points is about unscrupulous owners and breeders. As I mentioned before, the breeders are crossbreeding these dogs with different types and what for? A lot of these owners love the fact that they can walk around with the XL bully and say, “Look at me—I’m big and I’m tough. I’ve got this dog, and I’ll set it on you.” But the vast majority of owners are responsible and they love their dogs. That is the huge issue in this debate today.

My final point is basically focused at the Minister. The letter from 31 October mentions that if an owner wants to put their dog down, the Government will give them £200 to do so. What about the people who are struggling, who have a dog, and who are looking after the dog very well? They might not be able to afford the insurance or the licence—the £92. What about the Government considering some sort of financial support to regulate and regularise good, honest owners and good, honest breeders?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Hudson]

The hon. Member makes an interesting point. He also made the point earlier that once we ban this type of dog, people will look to find another type of dog. I acknowledge that some unscrupulous breeders will try to develop the next status-symbol type of dog, but that should not stop us from trying to stop such attacks on people and animals. This legislation is not perfect, but what we have seen in recent times means that something needs to be done now—in addition to a holistic piece of work to address some of the issues that he has rightly raised.

I fully recognise that this is very difficult for many owners. It is very difficult for the animal welfare charities and the veterinary sector as well.

[Ian Lavery]

As a vet, is the hon. Member not bound by some sort of oath? Vets should not be putting down any animals that are fit and healthy, when there is no reason whatsoever to put them down. He has said he feels that it is necessary. What is his personal view?

[Dr Hudson]

I have raised many points about vets being uncomfortable with doing some of this. A lot of veterinary practices and companies have surveyed their staff and will not force vets to do things they do not want to do. That said, I come back to the point that if some of these dogs are safe, they can be kept. As we heard from the Chair of the Select Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Sir Robert Goodwill), it is not feasible for rehoming centres to rehome dogs that are not eligible and put them into an environment where they could hurt someone. Sometimes we need to make professional and clinical judgments.

Sadly, some of these dogs will have to be put down, but I come back to the language that we need to be using. This is not some form of mass cull; actually, we are keeping dogs safe. If dogs are not deemed to be safe and cannot be registered, we must try to keep people and other animals safe. I recognise the difficulties on both sides, but I believe that the spate of attacks we have seen in recent months means that the Government and Parliament are right to act, but we have to get it right. We have to do it practically, sensitively and compassionately to protect people and other animals.