Centenaries (UK and Ireland)

Naomi Long Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Westminster Hall

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

The timing of this debate is in many ways very appropriate. Yesterday, 6 December, marked the 90th anniversary of the signing of the Anglo-Irish treaty, which led to the formation of the Irish Free State, as was, and ultimately to the partition of Ireland and the creation of Northern Ireland. It also led to the Irish civil war, which some sources believe may have claimed more lives than the original war of independence against Britain that preceded it.

In the context of this debate, it is worth noting that not only did the civil war leave Irish society divided and embittered in its immediate aftermath, but that the political divisions of that era remained the dominant cleavage in Irish politics for almost a century, reflected by the two main political parties, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael—the direct descendants of the opposing sides in that war.

Arguably, the 2011 Irish general election, which took place against the backdrop of the serious financial and economic crisis, is the first in Ireland’s history that has departed significantly from civil war politics. That is evidenced by the clear switching of voters between those parties. We can therefore be in no doubt that history casts a long shadow forward. The events of the past shape us—shape our identity, shape our present and also shape our future, to the good or otherwise, and never more so than when those events are contentious.

We are rapidly approaching the start of a decade of centenaries of seminal events and significant milestones in the shared history of the UK and Ireland. The period in question commences with the signing of the Ulster covenant in 1912 and the Home Rule crisis; covers the period of the first world war, from 1914 to 1918, including the battle of the Somme in 1916 and the Easter rising in the same year; and culminates in the events to which I have referred regarding the partition of Ireland.

During the period of history that I am describing, in 1912, the Titanic was launched and, tragically, sank—an issue of huge importance to my constituency, in which she was built. The period also stood witness to the emergence of the Gaelic revival movement and to the rise of both the women’s suffrage movement and the labour movement, from which flowed universal male and limited women’s suffrage in 1918. The Dublin lockout, which lasted from August 1913 to January 1914, was probably the most serious industrial dispute in Irish history, reshaping entirely the relationship between worker and employer. Also during that era the Irish Citizen Army, the Ulster Volunteer Force and the Irish Volunteer Force were formed, the latter two being actively engaged in gunrunning activity.

I concede that the list that I have given is very long, but it is by no means exhaustive. I have focused entirely on centenaries, without reference to the fact that, in the same period, we will mark other significant anniversaries, including the 400th anniversary of the plantation of Ireland.

The period between 1912 and 1922 was one of considerable change and turmoil, which shaped not only Northern Ireland, but the relationships within and between these islands. Sadly, in much the same way as post-partition politics in the Republic has been defined by the civil war, the divisions evident during that period remain to a large extent the basis of divisions in modern Northern Irish society. Therefore the manner in which we publicly mark those historic events, which remain both sensitive and emotive, is hugely important to preserving the current stability and, more importantly, to the building of a peaceful, stable and shared future.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. She is referring to the manner in which and the sensitivity with which commemorations are held. Obviously, the timing of the centenaries of each of the events that she has outlined is fixed, but does she agree that in the divided society that we have in Northern Ireland, how and where those events are commemorated is very important—so that they can be celebrated, rather than causing divisions like those that occurred in the past?

[Naomi Long]

I agree entirely. Celebrating may not always be appropriate. It may be a case of marking or commemorating some of the events, which are still very emotive. That is an important point.

Handled well, the coming decade has the potential to allow us to explore our past together, aiding understanding through education and discussion, and helping us to learn from our past and to consider how we can create and shape stronger and better relationships and enhance community relations. By contrast, if handled poorly, it has the potential to be a highly charged and fractious period, marked by deepening antagonism and division in society, and playing to and reinforcing centuries-old divisions rather than focusing on future progress.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this important debate. Although it will be impossible to achieve or express a received version of our history in relation to all these events, it is of course right that we should be responsible in dealing with the centenaries. However, particularly as the decade progresses, we will also be hitting significant 50th anniversaries, which might be much more contentious in the north. Surely that adds to the point about getting the treatment of the centenaries right, in a measured and responsible way.

[Naomi Long]

I agree entirely. The degree of maturity displayed over the coming 10 years will set the tone for the handling of events that are lived history for many of us who grew up in Northern Ireland during the troubles. That is an important point. People will of course have their own perspectives on the past and, indeed, differing aspirations for the future, and the free expression of that cultural diversity is a cornerstone of any normal liberal democracy. Different parts of the community will inevitably wish to place differing emphasis on selected events, and the right to do so should be respected.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. Does she agree that in relation to these largely, shall we say, contentious issues, there must not only be very good management? We must all seek to build consensus and to develop understanding so that we can celebrate our shared identity. We must build, in many ways, an active process of reconciliation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Naomi Long]

I agree. What the hon. Lady refers to is hugely important. I am about to come on to how we can go about doing that.

The desire to place context around the public marking of the centenaries is not about curtailing people’s expression of their perspectives and aspirations, which may differ. It is about ensuring that space and opportunity are created for discourse, interaction and debate in order that people have the opportunity to engage with aspects of our history with which they would not traditionally associate and to consider alternative perspectives on those events with which they most closely identify, so that no single narrative crowds out all other opinion.

It is therefore important that both Governments are involved in marking events throughout the period and not just those aspects of most relevance to their own jurisdiction. I hope that that approach will be reflected in the Minister’s response to the debate. I shall give just one example. During a recent visit to Belfast city hall, the Taoiseach specifically asked to see the original covenant table, which sits in the council chamber; and, in recognition that there is interest among people in the Republic of Ireland in marking the signing of the Ulster covenant, the Irish Government are supporting work by the Orange Order in the south to mark that event and to collate the history of those communities.

[David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that although the anniversaries or centenaries in Northern Ireland—and, of course, the Republic of Ireland—are important to both sections of the community, it is important that this matter is not left to the devolved Administration and that our national Parliament should also get involved?

[Naomi Long]

I agree entirely. One reason why I sought this debate is my belief that both Governments need to be involved in structuring the commemorations, as both Governments were heavily involved in the original events.

The transformative power of respectful commemoration based on inclusion and cultural diversity is also reflected in the preparatory work by the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council and the Heritage Lottery Fund. In developing their guidance notes for funding bodies, called “Remembering The Future”, they have stated in relation to the forthcoming centenaries:

“How these and others are marked in public as opposed to private space will chart the progress this society is making on its journey out of conflict. These anniversaries need not be mutually exclusive; indeed, if the commemorations are handled sensitively, they will provide an opportunity to underline how much of our history is shared.”

It is that potential that I want to explore in the remainder of the time available to me.

Given the huge improvements in east-west relations during my lifetime—marked most notably by Her Majesty the Queen’s recent state visit to Ireland, hosted by former President Mary McAleese—the decade ahead is an important opportunity to build on that established good will and progress and to enhance further the relations between the UK and Ireland. In doing so, it can make a tangible contribution to cohesion, sharing and integration in Northern Ireland. The success of that historic royal visit also teaches us important lessons about how to maximise the benefit of these unique opportunities when they present themselves. Such events are not spontaneous, but require a mix of detailed planning, careful management, sensitive choreography and strong political leadership.

The same is true of the upcoming commemorations, so I am pleased that the Taoiseach, despite all the other challenges facing Ireland, is establishing a commemorations committee to oversee his Department’s work, and that an all-party Oireachtas consultation group on commemoration has been established, which is being chaired by Jimmy Deenihan TD, who is Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. I trust that that will provide a good basis for close east-west and north-south engagement. Today gives us an opportunity to probe the preparations being made by the UK Government ahead of the commencement of the upcoming decade next year.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that with everyone participating in the preparations for these centenaries, it is vital that no one tries to rewrite the history of the United Kingdom or Ireland?

[Naomi Long]

I agree. I assume that the hon. Gentleman has sneaked a little peek at my speech, because I am about to move on to historical rigour.

Working together, the British and Irish Governments, along with the Northern Ireland Assembly, local councils and other interested groups, all of which are planning for the upcoming period to varying degrees, can set the tone for how events are marked and ensure that certain principles apply. Those principles include placing events in an inclusive and shared framework and looking to the wider history and context of the time in these islands and across Europe, rather than allowing celebrations to fragment into a series of, at best, exclusive and, at worst, divisive, events marking each centenary.

That spirit of inclusion must be matched with historical rigour. While there is still no shared or agreed narrative about many of the events, and while many myths continue to endure, there is a set of agreed historical facts, which should be the starting point for exploring different perceptions and interpretations of history. It is also crucial that we consider not just individual events in isolation, but their consequences, if we are to develop a deeper understanding of the period and our interrelated history. Much good work has been done already, and the Minister will be able to set out in his response the work that the UK Government have done in preparation for the coming period.

Time does not permit me to reference all the ongoing work, but I want to flag up Belfast city council’s commemorations working group. This cross-party group has developed a plan that, rather than focusing on individual events, has framed a programme divided into three chronological periods. The first, entitled “Shared History, Differing Allegiances”, covers 1912 to 1914. The second, which covers 1914 to 1918, includes world war one, the Somme and the Easter rising. The third will cover the events surrounding the partition of Ireland. That thoughtful approach to the civic commemoration of those events is a good example of cross-party working, and other work can be based on it.

Clearly, many of these events are significant beyond Northern Ireland, having both a national and international context. They will therefore be marked not only in Northern Ireland, but throughout these islands. The co-ordination of approaches will therefore be crucial if we are to maximise the opportunity not only to build good relations, but to capitalise on the upcoming period’s heritage and cultural tourism potential.

Northern Ireland has a competitive advantage because of the international interest in Ireland and the UK generally, including in its varied culture and history. It also has a strong creative industries and arts sector, and that shared asset is well placed to develop inclusive, high-quality cultural engagement and products around these historic events.

More broadly, Northern Ireland’s attractiveness as a general tourism destination has been boosted significantly by the positive publicity generated by a number of international events—including, most recently, the MTV awards in Belfast. National Geographic Traveller has listed the city as one of the top places to visit in 2012. That accolade comes on the back of TripAdvisor listing Belfast as the best-value UK city break, Lonely Planet encouraging people to visit the city before the rest of the world does and the Financial Times listing it as one of the top 10 places in the world to hold a conference or major event.

The recommendation by National Geographic Traveller reflects the 2012 Titanic centenary. The story of the Titanic creates an almost unrivalled international draw for Belfast, and particularly for my constituency, where so much of the authentic physical heritage linked to the construction of the Titanic is located, and where the construction of the Titanic Signature project is also making rapid progress. The year 2013 will see Derry/Londonderry assume the mantle of UK city of culture, and Northern Ireland will host the World Police and Fire games, which will, again, add to the tourism opportunities for Northern Ireland.

Co-ordination of the commemoration activity throughout these islands, and close collaboration between tourist boards, the arts sector, business and civil society will be necessary to ensure that the cultural, heritage, tourism and related economic benefits of the coming period are maximised and that the tourism legacy created continues to contribute to economic growth beyond the immediate decade.

The coming decade therefore presents us with both a challenge and an opportunity. It will not be easy, and the issues that are raised cut to the core of current divisions, but it would send a very positive message and mark real political progress if a mature, agreed way forward on sensitive issues could be found in Northern Ireland and between the UK and Ireland.

These events present us with an opportunity to move beyond the divisive historical legacy of the period marked by these centenaries and to deliver a watershed transition to a new era of shared history, where the focus shifts increasingly towards healing divisions, building cohesion and addressing our joint economic challenges.

We can respectfully and sensitively mark our shared history but refuse to be held captive by it. That aspiration can be advanced. The UK and Irish Governments have a role to play in that process. The east-west dimension was crucial to the history of the period we are talking about, and it remains important to exploring and commemorating it successfully in the years ahead.

I am grateful to have had an opportunity to raise this matter in Westminster and for the participation of other Northern Ireland MPs in the debate. I look forward to the Minister of State’s response, as I know from my discussions with him and the Secretary of State that the Northern Ireland Office is keen to make progress with others on this decade of positive change.

Oral Answers to Questions

Naomi Long Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

I am delighted that after six months the draft programme has come forward, and I very much hope that the Executive will crack on in working with the Assembly to deliver its main elements as soon as possible.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

One recent political development was that the Assembly agreed unanimously that the Secretary of State should convene talks to discuss how to deal with the issue of the past. Why, in the face of that consensus, does the Secretary of State refuse to do so?

[Mr Paterson]

That is a little unfair. Within a couple of days, I went to talk to the Speaker of the Assembly to discuss with him how best to address this issue, and I am now going to write to the leaders of all the main parties to discuss with their representatives how to take it forward. The sad problem regarding the past is that there is no consensus that we have detected. My right hon. Friend the Minister and I have been right round Northern Ireland talking to all sorts of groups involved with the past. Sadly, there is no consensus, but I will write to the parties and we will keep talking. This is very much an issue that has to be sorted out with local parties as well.

Rosemary Nelson Inquiry Report

Naomi Long Excerpts

Monday 23rd May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

The KPPS has been replaced by the home protection scheme, which is now administered by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office, who works diligently on this and assesses each case with great care. I am surprised that my hon. Friend used the word “cuts”, because this time last year we negotiated with the Treasury an extra £50 million, and since then we have negotiated a further £200 million. The Government have promised to stand by Northern Ireland and do what is necessary to bear down on the current security threat.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of the report, and for his measured and balanced statement. Rosemary Nelson’s murder was a brutal and callous act, and our thoughts and prayers are with her family, friends and colleagues on the release of this sobering report. My thoughts are also with the many other victims and survivors of the troubles in Northern Ireland who fear they will never have justice or even the truth about the circumstances surrounding their own situations. Does he agree that we need an inclusive and comprehensive mechanism to deal with the past and its legacy so that we can build a more stable future for Northern Ireland?

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful for the tone of the hon. Lady’s question, which I entirely endorse. One of the other major changes, which is not mentioned in the report, is the establishment of the Historical Enquiries Team, which is looking methodically at the 3,268 cases in which people tragically lost their lives leading up to the agreement. That forms a good basis for working on the terrible losses of the past. She knows that I am considering a range of options and talking to a wide number of people. We will bring forward proposals when we think we can achieve some sort of consensus, but she knows more than anyone how difficult that will be.

Air Passenger Duty

Naomi Long Excerpts

Monday 4th April 2011 Ministerial Corrections

The following is the answer given by the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office, the right hon. Member for East Devon (Mr Swire) relating to a question from the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) during Northern Ireland Question Time on 23 March 2011.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

3. What assessment he has made of the likely effects of changes in air passenger duty on business travel between Northern Ireland and London.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

I have had meetings with the Northern Ireland Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and with my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury to discuss air passenger duty. My Treasury colleagues fully understand the issues involved. The rates that took effect last November were, of course, set and legislated for by the previous Government.

[Naomi Long]

I thank the Minister for his answer. He will be aware that, in addition to air passenger duty, Heathrow and Gatwick intend to levy passenger landing charges for regional flights, which will compound the problem. Will he confirm that this matter is at the top of his agenda, so that we can ensure that Northern Ireland businesses have access to the capital?

[Mr Swire]

Indeed; these things have been discussed at ministerial level. I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury is here to listen to the hon. Lady’s comments. We take this matter very seriously. A lot of the issues to do with Gatwick and Heathrow are commercial matters that are more properly dealt with by BAA.

[Official Report, 23 March 2011, Vol. 525, c. 934.]

Letter of correction from Mr Hugo Swire:

An error has been identified in the oral answer given on 23 March 2011. It has come to our attention that commercial matters at Gatwick airport are not the responsibility of BAA, who recently sold the airport to a consortium, with the largest shareholder being Global Infrastructure Partners.

The correct answer should have been:

Murder of PC Ronan Kerr

Naomi Long Excerpts

Monday 4th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that strong comment. I entirely concur with what he said about Mrs Kerr, and I remind everyone of what she said yesterday.

“We all need to stand up and be counted and to strive for equality…We don’t want to go back into the dark days again of fear and terror.”

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

May I add my sincere sympathies to those expressed by the Secretary of State to the family, colleagues and friends of Constable Ronan Kerr. I also add to the Secretary of State’s call to those who have information that could lead to those who perpetrated the attack being brought to justice. Their destructive and murderous attack is in stark contrast to the constructive role that the PSNI plays in our community in trying to build for the future.

Does the Secretary of State agree that this was an attempt to drive young Catholics out of the PSNI, and to drive a wedge between it and the community? Does he agree that the best way to avoid that is for us to stand shoulder to shoulder with those police officers and give them our full support?

Oral Answers to Questions

Naomi Long Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

The hon. Gentleman should remember the Budgets that he voted for. I remind him that we are borrowing £280,000 a minute, and that we are spending £120 million a day on debt interest, compared with £95 million on education. That is where the money is going: we are paying off the deficit that he left behind.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

3. What assessment he has made of the likely effects of changes in air passenger duty on business travel between Northern Ireland and London.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

I have had meetings with the Northern Ireland Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and with my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury to discuss air passenger duty. My Treasury colleagues fully understand the issues involved. The rates that took effect last November were, of course, set and legislated for by the previous Government.

[Naomi Long]

I thank the Minister for his answer. He will be aware that, in addition to air passenger duty, Heathrow and Gatwick intend to levy passenger landing charges for regional flights, which will compound the problem. Will he confirm that this matter is at the top of his agenda, so that we can ensure that Northern Ireland businesses have access to the capital?

[Mr Swire]

Indeed; these things have been discussed at ministerial level. I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury is here to listen to the hon. Lady’s comments. We take this matter very seriously. A lot of the issues to do with Gatwick and Heathrow are commercial matters that are more properly dealt with by BAA.[Official Report, 4 April 2011, Vol. 526, c. 12MC.]

Civilian Deaths (Ballymurphy)

Naomi Long Excerpts

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mark Durkan]

Yes, I believe that it could. The state adopted the view at the time that what the Royal Military Police established in its inquiries with the soldiers who carried out the actions would be the official, received version of events. So long as the state does not specifically repudiate that version of events, it will be left hanging there. That is one of the reasons why the families want to see that version properly probed and resolved, not just for themselves, but because there are surely wider questions for us all about how the state could conduct itself in that way and ignore the serious questions that arose as a result.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

I commend the hon. Gentleman on bringing up the matter in a debate in Westminster. As Lord Mayor of Belfast, I had the opportunity last year, and even before that, to meet the families of the victims. Does he agree with me that in both Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday—the two incidents have to be looked at as related—the pain of loss was compounded by the fact that those who were victims of a crime were effectively treated as though they were in some way guilty?

[Mark Durkan]

The hon. Lady has put her finger on an important point. I do not talk about the victims of Ballymurphy or Bloody Sunday as if they were the only people who suffered grievously and need truth and justice, because there are many other victims of other forces or self-styled forces who are also due that. However, one thing that sets the victims of Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday apart is that they were denied the promises, albeit hollow promises, made by the state at the time that no stone would be left unturned in the pursuit of justice. The state and its political establishment denied them the sense of solidarity that other victims were given. They were accorded no sympathy or recognition of their innocence. Their innocence was impugned, because the suggestion was that they had somehow conspired to bring death on themselves or others.

That is one of the reasons why the other victims who not only received mortal injuries but found themselves in the twilight zone of state condemnation are due vindication and proper affirmation of their innocence through independent international assessment, and that is also why someone must be held responsible and why responsibility must be taken. That is important, not least in the light of the important and positive statements that the Prime Minister made when the Saville report was published, and in the light of those important findings themselves. The Prime Minister said several times on that day, and it was repeated on the day of the Saville statement and when the report was debated last month, that the Government take responsibility. It is important that the families of the victims of Ballymurphy hear someone take responsibility for those events.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

I am most grateful to you, Mr Crausby, for chairing this afternoon’s proceedings, and I am particularly grateful to the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) for securing this debate.

I start with a sin of omission rather than commission. Yesterday was my first encounter across the Floor with the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound). I congratulate him and welcome him to his new role as shadow Minister—indeed, he is my shadow. I know him well from the past. We served together on the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, and I know that he has given that Committee long and distinguished service. Its current Chairman, my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), is here today.

The hon. Member for Foyle spoke in detail today about the Ballymurphy families’ campaign. The hon. Members for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and for South Down (Ms Ritchie) stated that they had both met the families as, indeed, have my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I. We met them in October to discuss their case. The families recounted their moving stories at length, and we both expressed our profound sympathy for the loss that they had suffered.

We also listened carefully to the families’ requests for an independent international investigation, recognition of the innocence of their loved ones, and an apology. We did, of course, note the ongoing independent investigation into the case being carried out by the Historical Enquiries Team. I understand that many of the families do not support that investigation, but it is right that I reiterate this afternoon the Government’s strong support for the work of the HET. It has demonstrated on several occasions, whether in the Majella O’Hare case or the McGreanery case in the constituency of the hon. Member for Foyle, to which he referred, that it carries out its investigations with absolute professionalism and independence.

Furthermore, as I said last night in the Northern Ireland Grand Committee, the HET’s projected spend to 2011 is £32.5 million. If we compare and contrast that with the cost of the Bloody Sunday inquiry at £191.5 million, the Rosemary Nelson inquiry at £45.5 million, the Robert Hamill inquiry at £32.4 million and the Billy Wright inquiry at £30.4 million, we can begin to see the good value for money that the HET provides. I understand that the families have presented information to the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland and have asked him to consider using his powers to reopen the inquests into the deaths. Such decisions are, of course, properly a matter for the Attorney-General, not the Government.

Several Members rightly pointed out that the Government need to consider their response to the Ballymurphy campaign in the wider context of how we deal with the painful legacy of Northern Ireland’s past. However, we must also consider the wider context of the events in Northern Ireland in August 1971, a time when violence was escalating at a rate that would lead to the bloodiest year in Northern Ireland’s history. Between 9 and 11 August, there were 28 deaths in total across Northern Ireland, 11 of which were in Ballymurphy.

The Government’s approach to the conclusions of individual reviews and reports is absolutely clear: where wrongdoing or failings by the state are clearly identified, we will accept responsibility and apologise. In that context, I would associate myself more closely with the intervention made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer) than with the somewhat rash comments made by the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty).

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in his statement on the Saville report, we do not honour all those who have served with distinction in upholding the rule of law in Northern Ireland by hiding from the truth, but neither do the Government believe that the past can be adequately addressed by focusing solely on the actions of the state. To respond to the point made, I believe, by the hon. Member for Ealing North, that is why we do not believe that selecting a further series of cases to be subjected to a lengthy public inquiry is an appropriate means of addressing the legacy of a conflict that saw more than 3,500 people from all parts of the community lose their lives.

[Naomi Long]

I welcome the Minister’s strong support for the work of the HET, but does he agree that if we are not to have further individual inquiries, the Government must take—and lead—a comprehensive approach to dealing with the past and its legacy? I fear to say that, as yet, that has not been forthcoming.

[Mr Swire]

Indeed, if the hon. Lady will allow me, I will just say:

“Having recapitalised the banks, it seems as if we are recapitalising the legal profession in Northern Ireland. I’m sure the pain of the past has been eased in the case of the barristers but I’m not sure whether any material benefit has been achieved for the people of Northern Ireland.”

Those are not my words, but the words of the hon. Member for Ealing North, as reported in the Belfast Telegraph on 5 November 2004.

Northern Ireland

Naomi Long Excerpts

Wednesday 17th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Swire]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: we must do that. In fact there are two elections, which will be held in the normal way for the people in Northern Ireland, and the third is just a straight yes/no vote. I hope that the people of Northern Ireland will vote in the same way as I will.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

The Minister mentioned that in his meeting with the Electoral Commission, it had indicated that it was happy to facilitate all the elections taking place on the same day, provided that the risks were properly managed. Will he also agree that the commission said that it needed to ensure that it is properly resourced, given that there will be complications involving, for example, the number of ballot boxes available, and a number of other logistical issues, which will require more expenditure than a regular election?

[Mr Swire]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. Of course this needs to be properly resourced, and the necks of both the Secretary of State and myself are on the line if anything goes wrong. What we all want to avoid, on both sides of the House, are scenes such as those that we saw in the recent general election, when people were turned away from the polling stations. The matter is further complicated because some polling stations in Northern Ireland are quite small. There is also the issue of screening, and, as the hon. Lady said, of ballot boxes. I understand that the ballot boxes are being sourced at the moment. She is right to say that we must get it right, and to do that requires proper planning and funding.

As I was saying, my officials are working closely with the commission and the chief electoral officer in the run-up to the polls to ensure that there is early identification and resolution of any problems such as the ones that we have just heard about.

I hope that the House is satisfied that the vast majority of provisions in these orders will make small but important changes to provide for greater consistency with elections elsewhere in the UK. I also hope that hon. and right hon. Members are reassured that the necessary steps will be taken to ensure successful combined polls in May 2011, and will therefore agree that the date of the next local elections should be set for 5 May next year. I commend these orders to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dodds]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to that. The previous Government proposed reducing the number of councils to seven. I am the first to support a reduction in governance and the number of elected officials and all the rest of it, but a reduction to seven councils would have meant that Northern Ireland councils would be bigger than any other region of Europe. I am sure that the former Minister, the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), will go into considerable detail on that in his speech.

The lack or inadequacy of consultation on the primary legislation with parties in the Assembly and the Executive has been mentioned. I do not want to go over that, but consultation on Assembly and local elections with the chief electoral officer of Northern Ireland is mentioned in the orders and the explanatory memorandum. I recently met the new chief electoral officer. He is a very impressive officer and I think he will do an excellent job, but it is clear that he sought, during consultations on both the primary legislation and the secondary legislation that we are debating, some changes to the way in which elections are carried out that were not proposed by the Northern Ireland Office.

I am thinking in particular about the removal of polling agents from Northern Ireland polling stations. The Minister is nodding his head, so perhaps he has held discussions on polling agents. This is an important matter. Commendably, we have a sophisticated and elaborate system to tackle identity fraud and the abuse of the electoral system. As has been said, people must now produce certain types of photographic identification or sign postal votes, and their signatures are carefully examined. Postal and proxy vote abuse has been considerably reduced from the large-scale abuse that took place in previous elections. Our system is a model for dealing with postal votes for the rest of the UK. If the rest of the UK wants to cut out the abuse of postal voting, people should look at the administration and regime in Northern Ireland. Clearly, our system is now without any kind of abuse at all.

However, why do we still need polling agents—representatives of political parties—sitting in polling stations in Northern Ireland? The NIO, which is still responsible for elections, should address that, because it is clear that one or two parties—I am thinking of one in particular—clearly abuse that for purposes not in keeping with the legislation. Information is taken out of polling stations, so that voters who have not voted can be identified and then, of course, visited. They will be asked, “Why have you not voted?” and told to get out to vote. In certain parts of the Province and in certain circumstances, people will feel intimidated by that, so polling agents are being used for nefarious purposes. I urge the NIO to take that seriously when it next gets a legislative opportunity.

[Naomi Long]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that one difficulty is that when people are approached in those circumstances and they realise that the information has been garnered at the polling station, they fear that the fact of how they have voted is also available? People are often quite intimated by the notion that the ballot is less than fully secret.

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. We might sit in the comfort of this Chamber and know that the ballot is secret and that the information cannot get out, but for a lot of people, exactly the scenario that she has painted is what they believe to be the case. They believe that because information has been gathered on whether they have voted thus far, people will be able to find out how they have voted, and the people who call at their doors make no effort to disabuse them of that notion either. This is an important matter. Nowadays there is no reason at all for that provision to remain, if we really are going to ensure that we have fair and clean elections in Northern Ireland. As has been mentioned on a number of occasions, the ecology of the electoral system is different—and it is different: people are more easily intimidated by the way certain parties operate—so removing that provision would be a step towards improving the democratic process and making people less concerned about exercising their franchise.

The management of elections by the chief electoral officer and the issue of resources, which is an important point, have already been mentioned. In my discussions with the chief electoral officer, the point that he laid most emphasis on was resources. The matter of ballot boxes has also been raised, which is another issue that I know has been discussed. All sorts of imaginative suggestions have been canvassed, and I hope that it will be possible to find a sensible solution that minimises costs.

There is also the issue of polling stations. The Minister referred to the fact that polling stations in Northern Ireland were sometimes smaller than they are elsewhere. Again, I would urge him in his discussions with the Electoral Office for Northern Ireland to do what I have done, which is to urge the authorities to be a bit more imaginative when it comes to the buildings and premises that they use as polling stations. People are too fixated on the traditional buildings—“We’ve always used this building and we can’t depart from tradition”—whereas new premises have sprung up, and many people are used to doing things differently. Sometimes the electoral officers are far too hidebound by the past in managing this issue, so I would again urge the Minister in his discussions respectfully to ask the chief electoral officer to be much more flexible. There is a consultation under way—certainly in my constituency, and I am sure in those of other hon. Members—that is closing in December on the very issue of polling stations, so this is an opportune moment for the matter to be pursued.

Finally, so as to leave plenty of time for others who wish to contribute to this debate, let me say something about enforcement. The local elections order is fairly substantial, as the Minister said, as is the Assembly order. When I read through the detail of all the rules, what struck me was this: what happens when those rules, particularly those applying to the conduct of the election by candidates and parties, are breached? In my experience, it seems that we can prescribe all sorts of rules, from rules on the colour of ballot papers to rules on whether the X or the “1” should be marked in black pen or in pencil—we debated that in the primary legislation—or what would constitute a clear preference, all of which are matters of great detail. Indeed, the forms are set out in incredible detail in the legislation, so the issue is extremely important. Yet I have found that when matters are drawn to the attention of the authorities—the chief electoral officer and then the people responsible for prosecuting such matters—very little is ever done about breaches of the rules.

I want to refer to a matter that I raised during the debate on the primary legislation on the parliamentary voting system. One party in Northern Ireland—Sinn Fein—seems to be adept at producing detailed replicas of polling cards and other official material. On one side they appear to be authentic, but the other side has party political propaganda, some of it of a vicious nature, designed to persuade people that not only is Sinn Fein recommending voting a certain way, but that the electoral authorities are also doing so.

There were examples of that practice during the last Westminster election. One was in the constituency of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), and there was at least one in my constituency. There were also other illegal practices. The matter was drawn to the attention of the then chief electoral officer, who took the matter seriously, and it has been referred on to the authorities to consider what action should be taken. We know that there are serious consequences, and we will watch carefully, as will the electorate and the people of Northern Ireland, as well as the media, to see what happens about a clear and flagrant breach of electoral law.

I do not expect the Minister to respond in any shape or form on the specifics of a case, but I raise the matter because it concerns me that from time to time in Northern Ireland elections, whether local, Assembly or Westminster elections, all sorts of illegal practices go on. Vast amounts of money are spent, the election returns show that only a small amount was spent. Although everyone knows that tens of thousands of pounds have been spent but never declared. Such matters should be taken seriously.

It is all very well to pass legislation, regulations and rules. We debate them at length, and scrutinise them properly, but we must ensure that there is effective and proper enforcement, otherwise people will take the signal that at the next election they can push the boundaries even further and get away with far worse. That is insidious, and it needs to be stamped on. I am happy to lend my support and that of my right hon. and hon. Friends to the orders.

--- Later in debate ---

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

I support the orders. I would like briefly to raise a number of issues, some of which have already been touched on by other Members.

First, I express my disappointment that greater progress has not been made on the review of public administration in Northern Ireland, particularly as the local government elections were postponed to facilitate that process. It has become something of a political soap opera—not quite as long running as “Coronation Street” and certainly not as entertaining. It has not reached a satisfactory conclusion as yet, and there seems to be little prospect that it will—despite the fact that it has cost a lot of money. Most people would have liked to have seen this issue brought to a more satisfactory conclusion.

Given that the last local government elections were held almost six years ago there is a democratic deficit, so it is important to give people the opportunity to refresh their mandate in local government. It is disappointing that this is being done in the absence of reform.

I noted what the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) said about the possibility of bringing the elections forward, but I concur with the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) as I do not believe that further tampering with the electoral cycle is the best way of dealing with the issue. I agree that there is an urgency about taking the review of public administration forward in Northern Ireland. However, local government has demonstrated in the past its ability to co-operate even under its current structures—through arc21, for example, which deals with a number of councils’ waste. At the very least, we should expect enhanced co-operation so that some savings can be made without having to tamper with the cycle further.

I seek the Minister’s reassurance about photographic identification. In May, Westminster elections and council by-elections were held on the same day in my constituency. People turned up to vote, only to find that their photographic ID was admissible for one election but not for the other. This caused extreme distress, particularly for older people, who were relying on transport passes to get the correct photographic ID. They were not able to vote in both elections, as they had expected. I hope that the arrangements involving identification documents can be simplified so that when people turn up at polling stations, they are fully confident that they will be able to cast their votes.

I hope that the Minister will reflect on another issue, although I do not expect a full answer from him this evening. Given that the qualification to vote is established when the electoral register is compiled, which means that people who are on the register and duly marked down for an election have the right to vote in it, the purpose of ID is simply to establish exactly who they are. However, there remains a restriction for foreign nationals who have a right to vote in elections, but no right to use their passports from their home nations as a means of identification. They experience significant difficulties when they try to vote in elections in which they are entitled to vote, but cannot obtain valid identification documents. Given that the purpose of the documents is simply to prove that individuals are the individuals listed in the register, I think that the matter should be dealt with to ensure full participation in the community by those who wish to vote.

Along with other Members, I have already raised concerns about the holding of three elections on the same day next May. The Minister made quite a brave statement when he said that his neck would be on the line if the logistical issues were not handled well. It remains to be seen whether people will want to hold him to that commitment, but I have to say that this is not just about the logistical issues, although they are hugely important. Of course we want the Electoral Commission to be properly resourced to ensure that the elections can be discharged fairly, but we should also consider the democratic deficit that may result from the holding of elections at the same time.

There is always a risk that the Assembly elections and the issues connected with them—I think that it usually happens this way round—will obscure important debates about local governance in relation to local government elections. We need to consider how much media coverage is given to the local government debate, which has a direct impact on people’s lives but tends to be less glamorous—for want of a better word—than the issues dealt with in the Assembly. However, there is a chance that both issues could be overshadowed by the national campaign on the referendum. In Northern Ireland particularly, for obvious reasons, people might focus on the Assembly election, given its importance, rather than on the impact of electoral reform and local government.

A number of Members have said that we could surely cope with these complex elections, and it is true that ours is a very sophisticated electorate. There was a period during which we had an election, if not two, almost every year. People have become accustomed to voting and to how to cast their votes. The electorate are sophisticated in terms of being able to manage the electoral process, and, as others have pointed out, we have had two elections on the same day before. Nevertheless, the additional complication caused by a third election on a very different issue causes me some concern.

I believe that the combination of the local government and Assembly elections, while not ideal, may be manageable. I seek the Minister’s reassurance that he will do all in his power to ensure that people are fully informed about the issues on which they are voting and the consequences of their votes, particularly with respect to the referendum and the two elections that will take place on the same day, and to ensure that the Electoral Commission is properly funded in order to be able to notify people.

[Mr Dodds]

The Electoral Office for Northern Ireland, or perhaps the Electoral Commission, has a responsibility to urge people to vote much earlier in the day. We have already experienced problems with queuing, and given that there will be separate ballot boxes, the process will take much longer on this occasion. It is therefore vital for a press and media campaign to be organised officially at an early stage. People must be told, “Do not do what you normally do and wait until the last minute, or after teatime; get out and vote earlier.” That would be a very profitable campaign on the part of the commission.

[Naomi Long]

I entirely agree. I think it hugely important for people to be encouraged to cast their votes at the earliest opportunity. When people have turned up with the wrong documentation, it has been useful for them to be able to revisit the polling station if necessary. However, it would be beneficial generally if we could prevent what tends to be a post-teatime rush, with queues forming late in the day. I hope that that can be impressed on the Electoral Commission, and that the commission can be properly resourced so that its campaign is foremost in people’s minds. People have become accustomed to voting at times of the day that are convenient for them. On this occasion, there will be three different elections with three different ballot papers, and it is important that people recognise how much time will be consumed in filling them in.

I seek the Minister’s reassurance particularly in respect of photo-ID and ensuring that people are properly informed about the nature of the elections taking place on the day.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Swire]

I do not think that I am breaking any confidences by saying that I have discussed this matter with the chief electoral officer and his predecessor. I can only say that I am more than happy to discuss it with the right hon. Gentleman. I have considerable interest in this and considerable sympathy with where he is coming from. He also raised the issue of political donations. As he will know, the consultation on the provision for donations to political parties in Northern Ireland to be made confidentially concluded on 25 October, and we are considering how best to take that forward.

The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East spoke, as usual, intelligently and with tremendous knowledge. I know that he shares my frustration that things have not moved along as much as we would have liked on local government reorganisation. He asked whether there are signs of progress, and one hears from time to time various rumblings coming from the hill. The answer is that we must not relax on this matter and we must keep up the pressure, and he was right about that. I shall return to that in a moment, if I may. He also spoke about the combined elections in 2015 and he will not be surprised to hear that no decision has yet been taken—we are trying to get through next year first. I would prefer to await the outcome of the combined polls in 2011 before taking a decision on whether it is desirable to combine elections in 2015 or whether a provision should be made for their separation.

I was asked what the Government are planning to do about the coincidence of elections in 2015. I am writing to all Northern Ireland parties setting out our proposed approach and requesting their views. It should be remembered—we have been discussing this recently in terms of other legislation—that the Secretary of State already has a power to alter the Assembly election date by two months. We will see whether we need to do that at that time.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) talked about outdated boundaries. We would very much hope that the Executive have agreed new boundaries to ensure that they are updated well in advance of 2015, but in any case, I am proposing to write to the Minister for the Environment to take forward such a review immediately after the 2011 elections. I believe I am right in saying that the current boundaries are 19 years old, which is not at all acceptable, so clearly this is something that they need to get on with, regardless of local government reorganisation.

The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East asked whether we would bring forward elections. We have received no such request and we would need to consider such a proposal carefully, as we would want to ensure that the transition to new councils and the new set-up was in its final stages. We do not want to chop and change dates without good reason. He would probably support that approach, given that he said that it was with extreme reluctance that he postponed the date of the original election; I believe he said that he did not do that lightly. Nor should we tamper with this. We will have elections in May, but we need to keep up the pressure.

The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) raised some interesting points about ID, which I had raised with officials today. It is true to say that this order ensures that requirements at all elections are now consistent in Northern Ireland. I am told that people will be able to use the Translink smartpass, provisional driving licence and other smartcards. She also asked about foreigners and foreign ID. It is true that someone can now use an EU driving licence or an EU passport to vote in Assembly and local elections.

[Naomi Long]

One example that we had a problem with was non-EU documentation, such as that from Commonwealth countries. For example, people who are resident ordinarily in Northern Ireland and have Canadian or Indian passports cannot use them as a document to vote, even though they are entitled to vote in that election.

[Mr Swire]

The hon. Lady raises a good point. We should make it perfectly clear well in advance of the elections what photo ID will be acceptable. There could be nothing more frustrating than queuing to take part in three elections, arriving almost as the clock is striking 10 o’clock, only to be told that one has the wrong form of ID. That is something we should consider and, again, we need to be properly prepared. We would not want people in any great numbers—or, indeed, any individual—to feel that they had been disfranchised because they were not aware that their ID, which they thought was quite proper and which could be used on airlines and so on, was not appropriate for an election. We heard loud and clear what the hon. Lady had to say.

The hon. Lady also asked about the Assembly election dominating debate, leading to local issues being ignored. It is worth pointing out that, as the right hon. Member for Belfast North mentioned, local elections were held successfully alongside Westminster elections in Northern Ireland in both 2001 and 2005. The hon. Lady said that Northern Ireland has a sophisticated voting population, and it is up to the individual candidates to set fire in the minds and hearts of their potential electorate—[Interruption.] Not literally, but in terms of trying to get interest in the election. I think the hon. Lady is probably wrong on this point because having three elections, albeit two voting one way and another being a straight yes or no, will mean that people will talk about the elections much more. I would not be at all surprised if we had a very good turnout. I do not think that one issue should eclipse the other—I think that we are going to have a very political new year.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley mentioned ward boundaries. Again, that is a matter for his colleague the Environment Minister in the Executive, but, as we have said, we cannot go on working on boundaries that are nearly 19 years out of date. He also asked a specific question about the electoral night, and I am looking forward to the morning after, which I hope will be one without too much trouble. I am told by the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), that the Electoral Commission’s recommendation is that the Assembly election should be first, the referendum second and the local government election third, on the Monday. I believe that that has already been published.

It has been an interesting debate, but not a controversial one. The legislation is necessary to tidy up some anomalies. The contributions made by right hon. and hon. Members of all parties will be listened to by the Electoral Commission and the chief electoral officer. Let us hope that we have a good day next year.

Question put.

The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday 24 November (Standing Order No. 41A).

Northern Ireland

Motion made, and Question put,

That the draft Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) (Amendment) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 25 October, be approved.—(Mr Swire.)

The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday 24 November (Standing Order No. 41A).

Oral Answers to Questions

Naomi Long Excerpts

Wednesday 10th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Swire]

The hon. Gentleman has in his constituency the Gallaher Group, which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State visited recently. The loss to the United Kingdom economy from contraband cigarettes and forfeited duty is in the region of £2 billion to £3 billion a year. We should consider that closely, and continue to make representations in that regard.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

Is the Minister as concerned as those of us who come from Northern Ireland that recent reports show a third quarter fall in growth in the private sector in Northern Ireland, and will he therefore redouble his efforts to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy more effectively?

[Mr Swire]

Clearly, Northern Ireland is not immune to what is going on in the rest of the world—one has only to look over the border at what is going on in Ireland to see that. We work very closely with Northern Ireland on rebalancing the economy and we have the support of the Finance Minister, who, along with the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Industry, is meeting the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs this afternoon to discuss corporation tax. We must leave no stone unturned in our attempts to rebalance Northern Ireland’s economy and, critically, to provide well-paid and sustainable jobs.

Oral Answers to Questions

Naomi Long Excerpts

Wednesday 30th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful for that question and pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman, who has taken me to his constituency. I met the families in the Bogside two or three years ago, and on that trip I also met Dr Hazlett Lynch a few hours later. That drummed into me the fact that there is no consensus on the past. We have to work at local level, and I appeal to the hon. Gentleman to work with his colleagues in the Executive, in collaboration with us, to find a way forward. However, there is no black-and-white solution that will work if we impose it from above.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

May I add my congratulations to the Secretary of State on his appointment? Is he aware of the report produced this morning by the Commission for Victims and Survivors giving the Government advice on dealing with the past? How will he take forward the report’s recommendations so that we have a more comprehensive process for dealing with all aspects of the past and the needs of victims?

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that question. The document will form part of our listening exercise. We will publish the summary of the conclusions of those who responded to the previous Government on the Eames-Bradley report. As I have said, we will be going round talking and listening to various groups, but I repeat—for the nth time in this question session—that we cannot impose. It is up to people in Northern Ireland to work together to decide a strategy going forward.