Scottish Referendum (Trident)

Mike Weir Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

I am pleased to be able to contribute to the debate on how after independence we will finally get rid of weapons of mass destruction from Scotland.

The location of nuclear weapons has long been a contentious issue in Scotland, going back at least to the establishment of the Polaris system on the Clyde. Indeed, it spawned a mini industry of protest songs, pointing out the absolute absurdity of the argument that we build prosperity by threatening nuclear annihilation. Hon. Members will be pleased to hear that I will not attempt to sing any of them, but the older among us might remember the anthem of the time:

“Singin’ Ding Dong Dollar, everybody holler, Ye canny spend a dollar when ye’re deid”.

The argument has been a constant thread through the politics of Scotland ever since. The position of the Scottish National party has been consistent and clear. We do not want those weapons, and they should be gone at the first possible opportunity. Next year in the referendum, the people of Scotland will have the opportunity to make that happen by voting for independence.

I have to confess that I was somewhat cynical when I heard that the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs was undertaking a report on Trident; after all, its membership is unlikely to be sympathetic to the aims of the SNP. I was, however, absolutely delighted when the report very clearly stated:

“Nuclear weapons in Scotland could be disarmed within days and removed within months.”

That fantastic news will be warmly welcomed by people throughout Scotland. As the Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, put it in her letter to the Committee:

“As a nation Scotland has consistently shown itself to be opposed to the possession, threat and use of nuclear weapons—a position taken by a majority of Parliamentarians, churches, trade unions and many voluntary organisations, as well as articulated by the Scottish people in opinion polls.”

[Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)]

Is the hon. Gentleman saying that it is the position of the SNP that it would remove nuclear weapons within days rather than decades if Scotland left the UK?

[Mr Weir]

I will come to that very point in a moment.

Many of those who give Trident as a reason not to vote for independence were not so long ago of the view that the UK should get rid of it. It appears that it is not a problem for the UK to get rid of the system, but it would somehow be a huge problem for an independent Scotland. Labour’s shadow Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy), only yesterday confirmed that Labour is now in favour of a like-for-like replacement for Trident, and that would cost at least £25 billion, probably much more. That is an obscene waste of money when all our services are under strain and threat due to budget cuts.

[Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)]

That is absolutely not what the shadow Secretary of State for Defence said. He reiterated that the Labour party is committed to the retention of a credible, minimum, independent deterrent. He did not say that we were committed to a like-for-like replacement.

[Mr Weir]

That is not my understanding of what was heard on the radio. The position of the Scottish National party is clear and unequivocal: when we achieve our independence, we will get rid of nuclear weapons from Scotland as quickly as we can.

In her letter, Nicola Sturgeon states clearly:

“Following a Yes vote in the referendum, it would be the responsibility of the Scottish and UK governments to continue to work together, in good faith and on the basis of mutual respect, to agree the arrangements for the safe and timely withdrawal of the Trident nuclear weapons system from an Independent Scotland.”

The Scottish Government are happy to discuss the issue, but it appears from the UK Government’s response to the report that they are not prepared to do so and would rather bury their head in the sand and pretend that withdrawal will not happen.

[Katy Clark]

Although many people in Scotland would be pleased if Trident went, they would not be pleased at the removal of the other naval jobs at Faslane. Does the hon. Gentleman agree?

[Mr Weir]

I will come on to jobs in a moment if the hon. Lady will hold her horses.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Weir]

Not at the moment.

It is my firm hope that we can see these dreadful weapons put beyond use as soon as possible after we achieve our independence. The report goes into some detail on possible scenarios, and it is very heartening to hear that the weapons could be disabled within days. The report’s title asks whether we can terminate Trident within days or decades, and, in direct answer to the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash), I do not know whether we can realistically do it within days, but I am certain it will not take decades.

After Scotland votes yes, there will be 18 months in which we negotiate those matters that need to be agreed between the two Governments. Trident will be high on that list. I hope that, by the end of that period, we will be well on the way to seeing those weapons gone from our shores for ever.

[Mr McKenzie]

The hon. Gentleman makes it clear that the SNP’s position is to rid Scotland of nuclear weapons. How does that square with the SNP’s desire to creep back under the nuclear umbrella and gain security through joining NATO?

[Mr Weir]

Twenty-five of the 28 member states in NATO do not have nuclear weapons. The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) asked whether NATO would let Scotland in if we wanted rid of nuclear weapons; I remind her that Canada, a member of NATO, got rid of its nuclear weapons in 1984 and Greece, another member of NATO, got rid of them in 2001. It is not unprecedented. Norway does not have nuclear weapons, for example.

Much of the rest of the report goes into detail about the options open to the UK Government in finding an alternative to Faslane. Frankly, that does not appear to me to be the concern of the Scottish people or Government. It is a matter for the UK Government, should they wish to continue with the possession of nuclear weapons. Scottish independence gives the remainder of the UK the perfect opportunity to accept that it can no longer justify the possession of such weapons and to decide that it will no longer have them, but that is a decision for it to make. It is worth noting that even some military figures have begun to question the wisdom of retaining Trident in the UK, given the huge cuts to conventional forces.

[Michael Connarty]

The hon. Gentleman said earlier that he wished to see our shores rid of such weapons. As someone who has been a supporter of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament since the days of Polaris, and who remains a member of the parliamentary CND, I am concerned about the safety of all the nations in the United Kingdom. Is he saying that neither he nor the Scottish Government care if there is a similar danger elsewhere in the UK to the lives of the people in the UK?

[Mr Weir]

I have just said that, in my opinion, the UK should get rid of Trident. However, once we have our independence and the missiles are removed from Scotland, if the UK wants to retain them, that is a matter for the remainder of the UK. Scotland will not have them. We will have nothing to do with them.

Interestingly, as the report suggests, there seem to be alternatives. Francis Tusa of Defence Analysis has been quoted as saying that the problems have been exaggerated. It appears that the UK Government do not want to site the missiles on the south coast of England for fear that the missiles would be too near centres of population, but it does not seem to worry them that Faslane is close to the main centres of the population of Scotland.

It seems curious that there is objection to the use of Kings Bay in Georgia, because it might give the impression that Trident is not a totally independent system. I think most people think that already. Given that the report says that a stockpile of weapons is stored there and that the UK already contributes £12 million per annum towards the site, it seems that there is already considerable involvement there. Francis Tusa also makes the point that previously there were shared storage facilities with the Americans at Iserlohn in Germany, but such considerations are for the remaining parts of the UK, not the Scottish Government, who wish to see the missiles removed from Scotland.

Much of the debate has been about the impact on jobs if the Trident system left Faslane, but nowhere in the report is there a mention of the jobs implication; the report is about what the UK might do with Trident when Scotland is independent and ensures that we do not have weapons of mass destruction on our soil. However, the Scottish National party understands the concerns of those who work at the base.

Scottish Ministers have made it clear that they are fully committed to the future of Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde in an independent Scotland, operating as a conventional naval base without nuclear weapons. We are the only party in Scotland to have made that commitment.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

I have in my hand what I think was intended to be a secret submission from Mr John Swinney, the Finance Minister of Scotland. It is about the SNP’s commitment, should separatism work. He said:

“I have made clear to the Defence Workstream”—

they are the people studying this—

“that a much lower budget must be assumed.”

How is he going to afford to keep open the naval base if he is going to have a much lower budget?

[Mr Weir]

I find that incredible, from the Minister who is presiding over the slashing of the UK defence budget. He has just, under the basing review, betrayed the previous promises made to Scotland.

We have said that the defence budget of an independent Scotland will be £2.5 billion. We have made that commitment; that is what we will do. That is an appropriate defence budget for a country the size of Scotland and for the facilities that we will need in an independent Scotland.

[Mrs Laing]

Is the hon. Gentleman content that a Scotland that is separate from the rest of the United Kingdom would nevertheless be dependent on England, Wales and Northern Ireland, the United States, France and the rest of NATO for its defence?

[Mr Weir]

We have made our position on that absolutely clear. I am sorry that the hon. Lady does not appreciate it. I can say no further than what I have said. We will join NATO if we do not have nuclear weapons on our shores. If NATO insists on nuclear weapons, we will not join NATO. It is as simple and pure as that. We have made that point absolutely certain.

[Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab)]

If the hon. Gentleman has calculated a figure of £2.5 billion, it must mean that he has understood what he will be left with. I have never seen a single thing that tells us what the size of the navy, air force or army would be. What is it now? Will he confirm the size of our armed forces in Scotland? He has £2.5 billion. What would that represent?

[Mr Weir]

We have already said that our armed forces will be in the region of 15,000. That is on the record.

I have given way enough, and I would like to make some progress.

Scotland’s share of UK defence forces and our share of Trident costs could be used for the diversification of HMNB Clyde and to create jobs that met the defence, economic and public service priorities of an independent Scotland. Scotland’s population share of Trident running costs is estimated at around £163 million per year, while its population share of the Ministry of Defence’s estimated costs for the replacement of the Trident submarine fleet and infrastructure equates to around £1.25 billion to £1.7 billion. That is at least £84 million for each and every year of the 15 years it would take to construct.

A recent freedom of information request to the MOD revealed that 520 civilian jobs at Faslane and Coulport are directly dependent on Trident. That is only a small proportion of the more-than-6,500 military and civilian personnel who support operations at the bases. Channel 4’s “FactCheck” reported in 2007 that the lion’s share of Trident jobs—around 12,340—are based elsewhere in the United Kingdom, not in Scotland.

[Mr Reid]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Weir]

No, I will not.

There is no reason why the vast majority of Trident-based jobs cannot be redeployed in the redevelopment of the bases for non-nuclear defence use. In addition, the money being spent on Trident could be much better used to provide high-quality jobs in the area and beyond.

The argument put to the Select Committee by a Defence Minister, which was quoted in the report, that Scotland would somehow have to pay for a replacement base is laughable. If the remainder of the UK wants to keep those dreadful weapons, it is up to it to find a solution on where to base them, and to pay for them.

Whatever the discussions or arguments regarding the removal of Trident from Scotland after independence, no one should be in any doubt that it is our clear intention that the weapons will go as quickly as is safe.

Recently there has been much argument about the costs of Trident. It is completely unaffordable. Malcolm Chalmers of the Royal United Services Institute noted that about 35% of the MOD’s total core procurement budget would be going on Trident by 2021.

Such weapons are immoral. If they were ever used, they would indiscriminately destroy hundreds of thousands of lives and do untold damage to humanity and our planet, if not destroy it completely. The UK is a signatory of the non-proliferation treaty. We spend a lot of time telling others that they should not have nuclear weapons—indeed those who are developing civil nuclear programmes—for fear of what they might do with them. It is high time that we took a lead and accepted that we can no longer sustain a nuclear capability.

Bishop Desmond Tutu has put the argument much better than I could:

“We cannot intimidate others into behaving well when we ourselves are misbehaving. Yet that is precisely what nations armed with nuclear weapons hope to do by censuring North Korea for its nuclear tests and sounding alarm bells over Iran’s pursuit of enriched uranium. According to their logic, a select few nations can ensure the security of all by having the capacity to destroy all.

Until we overcome this double standard—until we accept that nuclear weapons are abhorrent and a grave danger no matter who possesses them, that threatening a city with radioactive incineration is intolerable no matter the nationality or religion of its inhabitants—we are unlikely to make meaningful progress in halting the spread of these monstrous devices, let alone banishing them from national arsenals.

Why, for instance, would a proliferating state pay heed to the exhortations of the US and Russia, which retain thousands of their nuclear warheads on high alert? How can Britain, France and China expect a hearing on non-proliferation while they squander billions modernising their nuclear forces?”

Someone once said that a unilateralist is a multilateralist who means it. I give no apology for believing that we need to get rid of nuclear weapons. Scotland, at least, wants rid of them and means it.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—