European Union (Referendum) Bill

Mike Gapes Excerpts

Friday 29th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman knows that that is not a point of order. He has made his point. If he had wished to put an urgent question before the House, that could have been considered. Perhaps he will think of that next time he wishes to raise a matter in the Chamber.

Clause 3

Conduct of the referendum and further provisions

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

I beg to move amendment 52, page 2, line 2, after ‘report’, insert ‘by 1 March 2015’.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 53, page 2, line 2, after ‘report’, insert ‘by 1 March 2016’.

Amendment 54, page 2, line 2, after ‘report’, insert ‘by 1 March 2017’.

Amendment 55, page 2, line 2, after ‘report’, insert

‘six months before the date or dates appointed for the referendum’.

Amendment 17, page 2, line 5, at end insert—

‘(1A) The rules recommended by the Electoral Commission shall provide that if—

(a) fewer than 60 per cent of registered voters take part in the referendum, or

(b) the majority in favour of not remaining in the European Union comprises fewer than 40 per cent of registered voters, or

(c) the result is not the same in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, or

(d) the result is not the same in each of the European Parliament constituencies in the United Kingdom,

the Chief Counting Officer shall declare that the referendum has not produced a valid outcome.’.

Amendment 5, page 2, line 11, at end insert—

‘(3A) The Secretary of State shall make available a sum of not more than £10 million to organisations campaigning—

(a) for a Yes vote in the referendum, and

(b) for a No vote in the referendum, for provision of public information and literature, to be divided equally between those campaigning for each answer to the referendum question.’.

Amendment 6, page 2, line 11, at end insert—

‘(3A) The Secretary of State shall ensure that the proponents and opponents of the question in the referendum shall be allotted no fewer than six nor more than 10 broadcasts of a total time of at least 60 minutes on all television channels broadcasting to the United Kingdom, at such times as are determined by the Electoral Commission so as to ensure that so far as possible they are broadcast simultaneously, and with Welsh language and Gaelic versions as directed by the Secretary of State in relation to particular channels.’.

Amendment 7, page 2, line 11, at end insert—

‘(3A) The Secretary of State shall ensure that the proponents and opponents of the question in the referendum are able to publish a two full page advertisement spread immediately after the front page in all national editions of newspapers published in any part of the United Kingdom, as specified by the Electoral Commission, on four dates to be specified by the Commission, with Welsh language and Gaelic versions where specified by the Commission.’.

Amendment 16, page 2, line 11, at end insert—

‘(3A) Polling stations are to be open from 6 am to midnight on each designated day or days for the referendum.’.

Amendment 61, page 2, line 11, at end insert—

‘(3A) The Secretary of State shall consult with and seek to secure agreement from the devolved administrations on the conduct of the referendum within the relevant part of the United Kingdom.’.

Amendment 64, page 2, line 11, at end add—

‘(3A) Results for the referendum will be published for European parliamentary constituencies, except that Gibraltar’s shall be published separately from the rest of the South West return.’.

Amendment 65, page 2, line 11, at end insert—

‘(3A) Persons who are resident in part of the United Kingdom that has voted to leave the United Kingdom or that has formed an independent country, or that is in the process of negotiating such independence or holding a referendum on independence will have their votes counted separately and be subject to a separate declaration.’.

Amendment 85, page 2, line 11, at end insert—

‘(3A) Those entitled to vote in the referendum who do not without reasonable excuse cast their vote shall pay a penalty of £50.’.

Amendment 84, page 2, line 14, at end insert—

‘(5) The Electoral Commission shall undertake a review of the conduct of the referendum and shall publish a report setting out the conclusions of the review no more than 12 months after the day or days on which the referendum is held.’.

[Mike Gapes]

Let me begin by wishing all my Jewish constituents, and Jewish people all over the world, a happy Chanukah.

It is a great pleasure to introduce this series of amendments. A number of them are in my name, but some have been tabled by other Members. The amendments in my name are 52, 53, 54, 55, 17, 5, 6, 7, 16 and 61. In the first part of my speech I shall concentrate on amendments 52, 53, 54 and 55, which relate to the provision in clause 3(1) that

“The Electoral Commission shall publish a report setting out its recommendations for the rules in accordance with which the referendum is to be conducted “.

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mike Gapes]

I will in a moment. I should like to make a little progress first.

If the referendum is to be conducted properly, we cannot allow the Electoral Commission’s report to be published so close to the date on which it takes place that the commission’s proposals cannot be properly considered by the Government and then implemented. We must specify a date in order to provide a clear deadline for the commission, which does not always act in a timely manner. The amendments propose various alternative dates because at the time when they were tabled there was another group of amendments to be considered and I did not know when they would be debated, but all those dates precede the proposed date of the referendum, namely before the end of 2017.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I am glad that my hon. Friend cautioned me against intervening too early, because he has now started to explain. What I wanted to know was why he had specified three different dates. Was it because he was not sure which would be the best of the three, was it because of the pace at which the Electoral Commission could move, was it because we were not sure when the referendum would take place, or was it because he was not sure whether any or all the amendments would be selected?

[Mike Gapes]

The answer to those questions is yes, yes, yes and yes. The proposed date of the referendum was not made clear to us initially, and there was a possibility of amendments allowing it to be held, for example, before the general election, one year after the election, or later. It was therefore important for there to be amendments in this group which were related to, but not dependent on, those in the other group.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I have an open mind about which date we should opt for, but does my hon. Friend agree that it is vital for the Electoral Commission to be encouraged to focus its mind? One of the key issues that it will have to consider is how we can best avoid a repetition of what happened at the time of the Welsh referendum campaign in March 2011. There was not a no campaign because no organisation had registered, and thus there could not be a proper yes campaign. The whole campaign was hamstrung from the start.

[Mike Gapes]

I accept my hon. Friend’s wise words. I agree that we need to learn from experience. We need to learn the lessons of not just the Welsh referendum, but the 1975 referendum on British membership of the European Community. I shall say more about that in the next part of my speech.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

May I correct what was said by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David)? There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Welsh referendum campaign. It was executed beautifully, and allowed the people of Wales to make up their own minds and decide.

[Mike Gapes]

I assume that I would not be in order if I began to discuss the Welsh referendum in response to those two interventions, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Let me say for the avoidance of doubt that the hon. Gentleman would indeed not be in order. I know that he will stick closely to the subject of the amendments.

[Mike Gapes]

As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I always take your advice, having listened to it very carefully.

Amendment 52 is probably the most important amendment in the group. We have now voted for the referendum, if there is one, to take place by the end of 2017. Other proposed amendments to clause 3 have not been agreed to. Specifying the date of 1 March 2015 would oblige the Electoral Commission to present its proposals and recommendations about the conduct of the referendum not just well before the general election—which might be pertinent, because any incoming Government could bear in mind any difficulties that the Electoral Commission had highlighted—but at a time that would allow proper consideration and preparation, including legislation or any other measures that the Government might wish to take, to begin up to two and a half years before the referendum, given that, although we do not know the exact date of the referendum, we have been told that it must take place by the end of 2017.

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

I wonder whether my hon. Friend was as surprised as I was that his proposals were not already included in the Bill.

[Mike Gapes]

I tabled these amendments for many reasons, but the most important reason is that the Bill is inadequate. It has many flaws, and if it leaves the House of Commons unamended, the other place will have to give it proper consideration and try to remedy the failure of this place to improve it.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I saw the promoter of the Bill, the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton), shaking his head during my hon. Friend’s comments. This morning the hon. Gentleman moved an amendment to his own Bill, so it is clear that it has already been improved. Has my hon. Friend had a chance to discuss these amendments with the hon. Gentleman, and can he tell us whether the hon. Gentleman is inclined to accept them?

[Mike Gapes]

I have had no direct discussions with the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton), but he is present, and is perfectly at liberty to speak about the amendments or even to intervene now. I should welcome an intervention from him if he wishes to explain why he does not like certain of my amendments. However, as we have observed on previous Fridays, although he is the Bill’s promoter, he makes hardly any contributions to our debates.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Many people might think that the reason the Government are being so unclear is that they do not have any of the answers, and it is simply a political manoeuvre. If Government Members have genuine concerns, is it not surprising that so few of them are here to discuss my hon. Friend’s amendments?

[Mike Gapes]

Apart from the Minister, only two Conservative Members are present, namely the promoter of the Bill and his hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Simon Kirby), along with one Liberal Democrat. Oh, I am sorry: I forgot the Whip. Whips are almost anonymous, so I never notice them.

[Lyn Brown]

What?

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[Mike Gapes]

Says my former Whip! But she is no longer my Whip, so I think—I hope—that I am okay.

Amendment 52 states that the Electoral Commission’s report must be published by 1 March 2015. Amendment 53 would give the commission another year, but that would allow the Government less time in which to consider its recommendations and make any changes to take account of them.

Amendment 54 would do the same thing, but with 1 March 2017 as the date. I am not so keen on that amendment. It was put forward, as I have explained to colleagues, in case a referendum is held after the end of 2017. I think that 1 March 2017 would be far too late for that obligation, because it would not give enough time for the House to make the appropriate changes or for the Government to put forward properly considered proposals.

Amendment 55 would ensure that the Electoral Commission published its report at least six months before the date or dates appointed for the referendum. Let us imagine that the Government, having listened to our deliberations, decided not to hold the referendum during Britain’s presidency of the European Union’s Council of Ministers—from 1 July to 31 December 2017—and, given their commitment to hold it before the end of December and the fact that they would not wish it to clash with religious festivals at the end of 2017, particularly Christmas and Chanukah, opted instead to hold it in early 2017. The Electoral Commission would therefore have to produce its report by the end of 2016.

[Wayne David]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is important that the Electoral Commission considers not only the arguments for and against, but the fact that the electorate need much more basic information? I refer him to the commission’s report on the issue, which makes the salient point that in order to have a reasonable debate the electorate need more basic information. The report must address that fact.

[Mike Gapes]

Absolutely. We are talking about a monumental decision on the future of our country, our international relations and the status of the 1.4 million British people living in other European Union counties, who, as things stand, will be excluded from making a democratic decision in the referendum. It is therefore important that the Electoral Commission does the job that the Government and the Bill’s promoter have not done, because those issues are not addressed in the Bill, even though they should be. We have to find a way for the Electoral Commission to put right what was not done by the Government, or at least the part of the Government who support the Bill—this is so complicated, because I have to keep remembering that it is a private Member’s Bill, even though the Minister is here to support it.

[Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend referred to British nationals living on the continent. Clearly the referendum could have profound implications for them. In view of his interest in the matter, which is evident in the amendments he has laid before the House, I would be keen to know whether he has heard from British people living on the continent and, if so, what their take is on the implications of what is happening and on their inability to participate in the referendum.

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[Mike Gapes]

I have received several e-mails and letters from British people living in other European Union countries—indeed, there are websites for them—and they are outraged by the idea that they will have no say. Some have been living in France or Italy for more than 15 years but will be unable to register as overseas voters. As I pointed out on a previous Friday, of the millions of British citizens living abroad, only 20,000 are registered as overseas voters. It is a serious flaw in the Bill that British citizens in other parts of the European Union will not be able to participate, but we will consider that under another set of amendments.

I will make some progress. Amendment 17 is fundamentally important. As Members will recall, this House introduced a threshold for the Scottish referendum in the 1970s, which was defeated. As a result, the support for separatism did not secure the necessary figure. The Scottish people did not vote for separatism, but in any case the threshold was there as a safeguard to ensure that a small, vocal and impassioned minority was not able to drive through a fundamental change without the wholehearted consent of the Scottish people at the time.

I believe that a similar threshold should be included for this referendum to ensure that if there is a low turnout the result will not be binding. Amendment 17 proposes that the Electoral Commission should set down rules specifying that if

“fewer than 60 per cent of registered voters take part in the referendum, or the majority in favour of not remaining in the European Union comprises fewer than 40% of registered voters”,

the referendum would not be binding.

[Lyn Brown]

I am delighted that we are considering amendment 17, as the last time we had a politically generated referendum in this country—when we had the elections for police and crime commissioners—only 15% of the electorate voted. Has my hon. Friend heard any noises from the Government Benches on whether they accept his amendment?

[Mike Gapes]

The only noises I have heard from the Government Benches have not been complimentary about any of my amendments—and some of them were not made in the Chamber.

There is also a major danger that different nations or regions will vote in markedly different ways in a low-turnout referendum, with divisive consequences for our United Kingdom. Let us imagine, for the sake of argument, that next September the Scottish people vote against separatism and in favour of staying in the UK but in a referendum in 2017 a majority of the electorate votes to leave the European Union, based on votes in parts of England and with the vast majority of Scots voting to remain in the European Union. We would think that the referendum next September will settle the question of Scottish independence and separatism, but in fact the same issue could be reopened only two or so years later, even though the Scottish people voted to stay in the UK. They might say, “Hold on. We didn’t want to leave the European Union, which is part of our association with the two Unions we are part of: the United Kingdom and the European Union.” We could then have a real problem. The same argument could apply in Wales, Northern Ireland and significant parts of England.

Therefore, if we want to keep the unity and cohesion of our country, we need safeguards to avoid an extreme minority in certain parts of the country driving through, on a low turnout, a referendum result that would lead to the withdrawal of parts of the country that did not wish to leave the European Union and were not inspired by fanatics to take part in a referendum that they did not feel was particularly important.

[Wayne David]

I am not entirely convinced by my hon. Friend’s argument. Is he saying that Wales, which has a population of less than 3 million, could have an effective veto over the rest of the United Kingdom?

[Mike Gapes]

I believe that those issues would then need to come back to be considered by Parliament. I do not wish to have a binding referendum. A binding referendum is dangerous if we cannot allow for sophisticated consideration of the implications of the result—for example, if there is a low turnout or there are very diverse results in different parts of our country. The final decision would therefore have to rest with this House in legislation that we would pass afterwards. I tabled amendment 17 for that reason, and I believe that the Electoral Commission would need to take account of those factors in its report. If the Electoral Commission did not accept such points, it would say so in its recommendations to Parliament, and Parliament and the Government would then consider those recommendations in making arrangements before the referendum that might be held by the end of 2017.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I am sorry to say that I am somewhat disappointed by amendment 17. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David), who said that it will give a veto to the devolved Assemblies, which is not in the ethos of a United Kingdom. More importantly, paragraph (d) states that there is a veto in relation to European Parliament constituencies. Notwithstanding the explanation of my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) about the referendum result not being binding, the amendment refers to a decision that

“the referendum has not produced a valid outcome.”

To me, that means that the referendum would be discarded. Does the amendment mean that the Electoral Commission will raise such a matter, because the amendment does not indicate what will happen if vetoes for different geographical areas are allowed and one actually takes place?

[Mike Gapes]

I agree that amendment 17 is not perfect. I originally put forward a series of amendments, but they were tabled together as one amendment. I would have preferred to have a vote on each paragraph separately, but that is not how the process worked, so they are all together in one. I interpret the amendment as giving advice to the Electoral Commission, which would then make recommendations to the Government, at least six months and probably two years in advance of any referendum. At that point, provisions could be considered to take account of the needs of the whole of the United Kingdom, as well as the requirement for a threshold to ensure that the result of any referendum cannot be based on a small minority, as has happened in police and crime commissioner or other elections, when the decision will have profound long-term implications for the future of the whole United Kingdom.

Amendments 5 to 7, which are linked, make proposals relating to the conduct of the referendum to make sure that there is a level playing field in the provision of public information and campaigning on both the yes and the no sides. From our experience of other referendums, not least the one on the alternative vote, we know that the different sides can put in different levels of resources. We know that well-funded American citizens of Australian origin who have daily newspapers and people from other countries who have connections with lobbying companies and organisations, whether tobacco lobbyists or others, will be able to generate large amounts of publicity for one side in any referendum campaign.

It is important to have balance. We already have rules with regard to party political broadcasts on television. Amendment 6 would make provision for television referendum broadcasts for both sides, so that there are

“no fewer than six nor more than 10 broadcasts of a total time of at least 60 minutes on all television channels…at such times as are determined by the Electoral Commission”.

Given that this country has minority languages that are recognised by the devolved institutions, we need provision for broadcasts in Welsh or Gaelic in certain parts of the United Kingdom.

[Chris Williamson]

Is the thinking behind my hon. Friend’s amendment on the funding of campaigns that there should be a ceiling, with no additional funding available? Back in 1975, there was a very unequal contest between the two sides of the then referendum debate. Is he seeking to ensure fairness, with the £10 million figure specified in amendment 5 being the absolute maximum that can be spent on the campaign by either side?

[Mike Gapes]

The amendment is about state funding to ensure that both sides have a minimum level of resources for campaigning, but it does not cap the total that can be spent. It is entirely up to the Electoral Commission to propose rules of that kind. None of my amendments would introduce a cap, but I take my hon. Friend’s point. There will undoubtedly be a disparity, with well-funded—perhaps foreign—interests that want the UK to leave the European Union, because they see that as a way to help their companies have lower standards of social protection, parental rights or whatever, so there are dangers.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I do not know whether my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly and I will agree about amendment 5, as we did on the wording of amendment 17. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South intend to introduce a private Member’s Bill to make voting compulsory in this country? My impression is that what he wants broadcasters and print media to produce would completely turn off the British people by forcing politics down their throats. If anything is guaranteed to ensure that people do not vote in the referendum, it is this amendment.

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[Mike Gapes]

Of course, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would simply say that I am in favour of compulsory voting, as in Australia, but it is not in the Bill.

[Wayne David]

On amendment 7—

[Mike Gapes]

I am about to introduce amendment 7, but I thank my hon. Friend for pre-empting me. It deals with what we could call the Rupert Murdoch question: making sure that when 70% or more, by circulation, of this country’s print media is in the hands of people who do not want Britain to remain in the European Union—they will no doubt campaign vigorously, as many of them have for many months or years, with a relentless daily drip, drip, drip—their readers should have some information from both sides of the campaign.

Amendment 7 states that

“proponents and opponents of the question in the referendum are able to publish a two full page advertisement spread immediately after the front page in all national editions of newspapers published in any part of the United Kingdom, as specified by the Electoral Commission, on four dates to be specified by the Commission”.

That would ensure that the debate is conducted with some degree of fairness, and it would also save costs. There could be a higher figure for both sides of the campaign to enable them to put out more material, but we require balance in our broadcast media—the BBC and other broadcasters are supposed to show balance during election campaigns—and the amendment is about having such balance in our print media.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I took notice of your previous admonishment, Madam Deputy Speaker, when I mentioned alternative legislation. However, I want to do so again on the basis that we considered recently the complex issue of press freedom and the royal charter. Surely what is missing from amendment 7 is the word “paid”. It states that the Secretary of State will make publishers

“publish a two full page advertisement”

on these issues. Surely the word “paid” should be in there, because we would not be taking editorial control of the newspapers. The adverts would surely have to be paid for by the taxpayer.

[Mike Gapes]

It would be for the Electoral Commission to consider how best the adverts could be paid for. The payment could come out of the £10 million that is mentioned in amendment 5 or a special fund could be established for the purpose. Perhaps, out of the goodness of their hearts and acting patriotically in the national interest, the newspapers might allow both sides in the debate to be heard, rather than putting only one side of the argument, as is often the case with some publications in this country.

[Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am listening to my hon. Friend’s argument with great interest, but I am little concerned that the newspapers to which he is referring might take the taxpayer’s money with great enthusiasm and publish the pages, but use the money to publish another couple of pages that counter the arguments that are put forward in the advertisement. Does he agree that a lot more work needs to be done on that?

[Mike Gapes]

Absolutely; that is why amendment 7 says that the Electoral Commission should consider the matter in detail. We cannot go through all the minutiae of the Bill. The Electoral Commission would be responsible for looking at all the arguments, including those made by my hon. Friends the Members for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) and for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey).

[Wayne David]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mike Gapes]

No, I want to make a bit of progress because I have other amendments that I want to introduce.

[Wayne David]

It is a very important issue.

[Mike Gapes]

All right, I will give way very briefly.

[Wayne David]

I thank my hon. Friend for his generosity. I would like clarification. Amendment 7 uses the term “national”. Is he talking about the Welsh nation, the Scottish nation or the United Kingdom? What does he mean by “national”? My understanding is that, in the amendment, “national” refers to the United Kingdom. Many English voters would therefore have the Welsh language in their newspapers. Does he think that that might be slightly strange for them?

[Mike Gapes]

As I have said, the Electoral Commission needs to consider all of these aspects carefully. Publications such as the Western Mail would be regarded as national in Wales, but not in England. We have to consider such difficulties and nuances. That would be done by the Electoral Commission.

I will move on to the final two amendments that appear in my name. Amendment 16 would provide for polling stations to be open for longer. In parliamentary elections, polling stations are open from 7 in the morning until 10 at night. There were difficulties during the last general election. Some people queued outside polling stations and could not get in. The doors of some polling stations were locked and there were arguments about people not being allowed to vote. Other people were inside polling stations and were allowed to put their votes into the ballot boxes after 10 o’clock.

We must avoid such difficulties. I tabled a series of amendments on holding the referendum on more than one day. Polling stations must be open for cleaners who come back home in the early hours of the morning. They could vote at 6 am. People who work late could vote just before midnight. If, contrary to what I expect, there will be great enthusiasm for the referendum and a massive turnout, we must extend the voting period to ensure that as many people as possible can cast their votes.

[Wayne David]

I hear what my hon. Friend is saying, but the Government did eventually, under pressure, accept an amendment to the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill to solve the problem of long queues at polling stations before 10 o’clock. I think that that will be effective. That puts a question mark over the importance of amendment 16.

[Mike Gapes]

I do not expect the House to vote on all my amendments. There are some amendments that I will not press to a vote and amendment 16 is one of them. I will therefore conclude my remarks on that amendment.

Finally, amendment 61 is important. It touches on the issues of publicity, newspapers, media and different languages that we have already debated. We live in a United Kingdom that has devolved Administrations in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. It is important that there is consultation with all parts of the UK and agreement over the conduct of the referendum. I therefore hope that amendment 61 is not controversial and will not be opposed by the Government.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend has not commented on the amendments that have been tabled by those on his Front Bench, which recommend an audit of the arrangements for the referendum by the Electoral Commission once it has taken place and, crucially, that the people of Gibraltar should have their votes declared separately and, as a result, clearly so that we can see how Gibraltarians have voted. I would welcome his assurance that he is sympathetic to the merit of those two amendments.

[Mike Gapes]

Of course I am sympathetic to those amendments. I have not commented on them because they have not been introduced by the Member who tabled them. I thought that it would be better to listen and to intervene at a later stage, if necessary.

I am happy to conclude by commending all my amendments to the House. I look forward to the consideration of the amendments that have been tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) and by other hon. Members.

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

This group of amendments deals with various matters pertaining to the detailed conduct of the proposed referendum.

Amendments 52 to 55 would impose deadlines on the Electoral Commission. Existing legislation gives the commission appropriate powers and responsibilities. Particularly as we do not yet know the exact date on which the referendum will take place, it would be wrong to impose undue inflexibility on the commission, as these amendments would.

Amendment 17 would impose thresholds. The Government believe that the referendum result should be determined, as in other referendums, by a simple majority of those who vote. Thresholds should not be required in respect of turnout or anything else.

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[Chris Williamson]

I could not have put it better myself. Indeed, I was going to use the word “shameful” to describe what can only be called the Minister’s calumnies against the honourable motives of my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South. I absolutely agree that they were shameful. I hope that when the Minister has had time to reflect, he might, from the Dispatch Box, withdraw his comments and apologise to my hon. Friend, who has entirely honourable motives for asking reasonable questions and tabling legitimate amendments. On a previous occasion, I think another Minister was chided by Mr Speaker for questioning my hon. Friend’s amendments, as if in some way they were disorderly. I could not see how that could possibly have been the case, because the Chair had ruled them in order and they were before the House to be debated. I have not long been in this place, but in my time I think it is unprecedented for such a challenge to be made.

[Mike Gapes]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) for their kind remarks. I want to place it on the record that my amendments, which were selected, were ruled by Mr Speaker to be perfectly in order and specifically not “frivolous”, but I must correct my hon. Friend: it was not a Minister who said they were frivolous, but a Liberal Democrat.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes, I recall; I was in the Chamber at the time. I withdraw any inadvertent slight against those on the Government Front Bench on that particular point, but obviously my remarks just now about the Minister’s shameful comments still stand.

Despite my youthful appearance, I actually participated in the referendum in 1975. I know it is probably difficult for people to believe, but I was eligible to vote. Indeed, it was my second opportunity to vote in a national poll.

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[Chris Williamson]

Absolutely. It would clearly be completely wrong—and, indeed, anti-democratic—to impose any obligation restriction on how individuals cast their votes or for whom they cast them. That would be a matter for each individual to come to a view on. People would no doubt listen to the various campaigns for and against and come to a view. I would personally prefer it if, when elections come about, people actually took the opportunity to vote rather than stopping at home. If they do not support any particular candidate, they should go along and spoil their ballot paper. Our democracy confers a very precious right. We know that our forefathers and mothers fought and gave their lives for democracy, and we see this around the world when people continue to this day to strive, struggle and fight to get the right to exercise their vote. Democracy is a very precious thing, and that is why it is essential to maximise participation in it. I think my amendment would have the effect of achieving precisely that.

[Mike Gapes]

My hon. Friend is making a very important point about the importance of people voting in elections, but is he as concerned as I am that there appears to be a decline in voter turnout across large parts of the prosperous world, certainly in other European countries? Interestingly, this relates not just to the elections for the European Parliament, because turnout has declined even more in many countries in their national elections.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes, that is a very regrettable fact of life. My hon. Friend’s intervention reinforces the notion behind my amendment that imposing a penalty would almost certainly increase the turnout. We have seen that this is what happens in Australia, for example. Because of the importance of this particular issue, any incentive we can provide to encourage people to participate would, I think, be all to the good. I hope that, as I have said, Government Members will consider the intentions behind my amendment and support it.

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[Martin Horwood]

The principle of turnout in British elections has always been that whatever the quantum of votes, we accept the result one way or the other. I would not be happy in that situation, but it would be down to those of us who are putting the pro-European case to ensure that people turned out in sufficient numbers to defend British jobs, to defend our ability to fight cross-border crime and to defend the protection of the environment across European borders. That would be our responsibility and we will not solve it by forcing people who do not want to vote to turn out. We do not have to share Russell Brand’s variety of celebrity nihilism to believe that voters reveal important information about the health of our democracy and the levels of detachment and disenchantment when they do not turn out to vote.

[Mike Gapes]

rose—

[Martin Horwood]

I will give way once to the hon. Gentleman.

[Mike Gapes]

I do not intend to intervene again. I just want to point out that in the 1970s this House introduced a threshold for the Scottish referendum, so thresholds are not an unprecedented proposal. There might be a strong argument for it in a case of this kind.

[Martin Horwood]

That brings me neatly on to amendment 17, which seeks to impose a threshold of 60%. The suggestion that a turnout of less than 60% means that the result is not legitimate is intriguing, because if we applied that to Westminster constituencies we would have some interesting results. Let me pick one at random: Ilford South had a turnout of 58% at the last general election, and I would find it surprising if the hon. Gentleman was arguing that that meant that the result was invalid in some way. We have not applied that principle, certainly not at such a level, to previous referendums and we certainly do not apply it to Westminster votes. When the referendum comes, I hope that those in favour of remaining in the European Union for the benefit of jobs, fighting cross-border crime and protecting the environment will win it on a simple majority.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wayne David]

I shall keep my comments brief, because hon. Members want to make progress and I want the process to be expedited as much as possible.

I begin by picking up one of the last points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), who referred to the comments made a little while ago by the Minister. I take exception to the Minister’s comments. He said that a number of the amendments in the group are otiose. That might be his opinion, but we should put on record our thanks to hon. Members, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), for tabling amendments, which have allowed for a proper discussion and debate on this enormously important Bill. Regardless of whether we agree with the amendments he has tabled, had he not done so we would not have got into a detailed debate today and on other days about the Bill’s ramifications and implications. Rather than saying simply that the amendments are otiose, we should be thanking my hon. Friend.

My hon. Friend spoke eloquently to amendments 52 to 55. In essence, they are about insisting that the Electoral Commission comes forward with a proper series of recommendations for the conduct of the referendum. That is important, because all of us recognise, no matter which side of the argument we are on, that there needs to be a proper and fair discussion and debate in the country. I echo a point made by the Electoral Commission when I say that it is simply not enough to have stipulations about how the debate is conducted; information must be provided by the Government that objectively sets out the parameters of the debate to be held. The Electoral Commission says that all the research it has conducted shows clearly that the majority of the population feel that they do not have sufficient information to reach an objective decision, either for or against. It is therefore important that the Government set out objective information about the European Union. Of course, the last thing we want is the Government subjectively setting out information, in a biased and partisan way. That is why it is very important that the Electoral Commission not only sets out rules—

[Mike Gapes]

My hon. Friend will be aware that the Government—at least the Conservative party—have already behaved in a biased and partisan way with regard to the wording of the question, which is contrary to what the Electoral Commission recommended. What guarantees do we have that the Electoral Commission’s recommendations will be implemented by this Government’s Ministers?

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. We touched on that issue in our debate last Friday, and the point holds firm. We would hope that if the Bill proceeds from this House to the other place, the Government might well table an amendment, as they have done with previous legislation, to modify the question that is set, in line with the Electoral Commission’s recommendation. It is also important to stress, however, that the Electoral Commission is a neutral, impartial body respected by all sections of the political spectrum. Those in the Electoral Commission are the custodians of electoral processes, objectively and clearly defined. To go back to the point I was making about its report on the conduct of the campaign, that is why it is important that the Government take on board the Electoral Commission’s recommendations, and that it is given plenty of time to do the work and is told precisely when its reports are expected. We have had an important debate on that matter, and I am minded to favour the idea of a stipulated time for such a report from the Electoral Commission.

Amendment 7, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South, refers to the need for advertisements in national newspapers, across the United Kingdom and in the nations that make up the United Kingdom. As a Welshman, I think that that is particularly important. Although I do not speak the language of heaven—I have tried but failed—I recognise its importance, and the Welsh language must be respected. In addition, a distinct population in Wales speak the Welsh language as their first language. It is important that we do not place Welsh language advertisements in newspapers just in what is known as “BBC Welsh”, as the Welsh language varies in different parts of Wales. The Electoral Commission has done quite a bit of work on how the debate should be conducted through the medium of the Welsh language. Interestingly, GfK, the organisation contracted by the Electoral Commission to conduct the research, has said that we must be careful with the Welsh language in what we put on the ballot paper and, by implication, in the advertisements. For example, it makes the point that the phrase “Undeb Ewropeaidd”, which of course means the European Union, is not widely understood by Welsh speakers. GfK’s survey found that many Welsh speakers thought it referred to the United Nations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hague]

The right hon. Gentleman has to go right back to the 1970s, so he cannot accuse me of going back into history. Going back to 2005, when Labour gave up the rebate, is not going back very far. If he is so proud of Labour’s record on a referendum, he should be in favour of one now and in favour of establishing it in law. Labour Members do not have the courage to do so. Where they cut the rebate, we have cut the EU budget; and where they got us into eurozone bail-outs, we have got Britain out of them. We have achieved real reform of Europe’s most disastrous policy—the common fisheries policy.

[Mike Gapes]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Hague]

I will not give way to the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), whose views have been delivered at great length over many hours. He has dragged himself reluctantly and slowly through the Division Lobbies, so I do not think we need to hear from him during my speech.

We have pushed forward free trade.

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[Mr Bailey]

I cannot support the Bill because, first and foremost, it is a politically driven Bill, adopted by the Government not in the national interest, but to try to reconcile the mutually hostile and intractable positions of members of the major Conservative part of the coalition.

[Mike Gapes]

My hon. Friend mentions the Government. There are no Liberal Democrats in the Chamber—that is not unusual—and he would be right to say that of the Government Members present, only the Conservatives are here. However, the Bill is not a Government Bill. It is important to emphasis again that the Bill is a private Member’s Bill that is not supported by the Government.

[Mr Bailey]

I was coming to that point. In all my years in the House, I have never known a private Member’s Bill to be adopted so enthusiastically, which it has been by at least one section of the Government—the Conservative party and the Prime Minister. I have never known the devices that have been used to rally support for the Bill to be used before. We are told that Back Benchers have had breakfast in Downing street. The Prime Minister is trying to convince his Back Benchers either to stay in or to come out of the EU using the device of stuffing them with French croissants or, I have heard, bacon baps. Was it Danish or British bacon? I hope that those Conservative Back Benchers who are so hostile to the EU ensured that the Prime Minister stuffed their baps with British bacon to get their vote for the Bill.

On a more serious note, I want to concentrate my few remarks on a vital issue not only for the country, but for the west midlands and my constituency in particular. A lot has been said—my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) emphasised this—about the potential impact on foreign direct investment in this country arising from the uncertainty that will be created by a decision to hold a referendum in 2017. If we ask investors what the most crucial thing to ensure that they invest in a place is, they will answer, “Certainty.” If people are to invest money, they want to know on what basis that money will be used and what returns can reasonably be generated. If there is uncertainty about the scale of the market for British manufacturers, the prospect of encouraging foreign direct investment will be very much more limited.

Outside investors are not daft. When they see the Government—or the Conservative party—backing a Back-Bench Bill such as this one, they can see the way the wind is blowing and they are bound to question whether they should be investing in this country again. As my hon. Friend said, major manufacturers in this country are already questioning their long-term commitment to it as a result of the uncertainty being created by this Bill.

The Bill conflicts with the Government’s asserted priorities, too. We are told that they are reducing corporation tax to encourage foreign direct investment, but what is the point of doing that if they are at the same time reducing the potential market for the products that would be generated by that investment from 500 million people to 60 million? The two policies are totally contradictory, as outsiders with money to invest in Britain will notice.

The situation has particular importance for my west midlands constituency. It is fair to say that the recession has not had nearly as bad an overall impact as it might have had, largely because of the rejuvenation and renaissance of the motor industry, which has been centred in particular on the expansion of Jaguar Land Rover. My constituency has more foundries than any other, and they are often third, fourth or fifth-tier suppliers to the motor industry. The prospect of a reduction in investment in the key manufacturers in the motor industry is bound to have an impact on the economic prospects of my constituents.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wayne David]

I think it is fair to say that we have had an interesting few days. One reason is that the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) has not been present very often. It is a good parliamentary skill to have a light touch, but it is possible to take things too far.

[Mike Gapes]

My hon. Friend ought to be fair to the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton)—he has been present, but he has not been participating.

[Wayne David]

The hon. Gentleman has obviously been a very discreet presence; I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention.

It has also been an interesting few days because the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) tabled an important amendment—a very brave one, given the criticism from his colleagues. Unfortunately, he is not present either; I have not caught sight of him since his amendment was unsuccessful.

We should give collective thanks and praise to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) for the large number of amendments he has tabled. Many were probing amendments, which allowed us to have an effective debate and probe the central themes underlying the Bill. Above all, his amendments showed that the Bill has many profound weaknesses; I shall focus on three of those.

First, a fundamental weakness is that the Bill as it stands is an essentially unconstitutional attempt to bind a future Parliament to a decision made in this Parliament. We are well aware of the erudite comments of the constitutional expert Dicey, who said that such a thing was fundamentally contrary to the principle of parliamentary democracy. Attempts have been made to bind subsequent Parliaments to decisions, and they have all come unstuck; all have been unfortunate experiences. I very much regret that although the Government, or the Conservative element of the Government, might declare that that is not the case, there is a profound constitutional question mark over the Bill.

Secondly, as several hon. Members said, the Bill intrinsically creates uncertainty—uncertainty about our membership of the European Union. As Britain is above all else a trading nation, clarity is required about our future trading relations, and our most important trading partner is the European Union. That is a fact. It is not a subjective statement; it is an entirely objective one. Therefore, the question mark that the Bill places over our future membership is extremely damaging and debilitating to Britain’s national interests.

There is another profound weakness in the Bill: the nature of the question that would appear on the ballot paper. It is:

“Do you think that the United Kingdom should be a member of the European Union?”

There are many serious weaknesses in that question. Weaknesses have been pointed out by Members of this House, but perhaps more important weaknesses in that question have been pointed out by the Electoral Commission.

The Electoral Commission, as others have said, and which I will repeat because it is so important, is the impartial body that is charged with ensuring that elections of all sorts in this country are conducted fairly. It is profoundly concerned about the wording in the Bill. It has said that the opening phrase, “Do you think that” should be replaced with “Should”. That is a very fair comment. It also says that it would be far better that the question was more open-ended. The question currently says,

“should be a member of the European Union”.

It would be far better if it were less ambiguous and did not imply that Britain at present was not a member of the European Union. The Electoral Commission has gone a stage further and said that perhaps there is scope for Parliament to consider whether, rather than a yes or no question, two alternative statements should be put forward and Members should be able to select which statement they prefer. Sadly, there has not been an opportunity in this House to have that kind of important debate, which the Electoral Commission has suggested.

It is important to recognise that this issue exercises the minds of many in the country, but what has come through clearly from the debate during the last few days above all else is that, yes, people are interested in whether we should continue to be a member of the European Union, but they are also concerned about the lack of information in the public domain to enable them reasonably to come to a conclusion. I hope that the Government will say that there is a need to end the partisan point-scoring on this fundamentally important issue to Britain’s future, and embark upon a bipartisan, cross-party public information campaign, so that people are aware of the important issues at stake. That point is clearly made by the Electoral Commission, and I hope to goodness that in the interests of democracy the Government recognise the need for that to take place.

I very much hope that the Bill will go from this House today to the other place, where I have every confidence that there will be a sensible and rational debate and that amendments will be tabled and agreed to, and that the Government will be positive in their engagement with the other place and will respect the enormous knowledge and expertise there, particularly on European issues. If that is the case, there will be a productive period of consideration in the other place, and when the Bill finally returns to this House, it will be a better Bill as a consequence.

[Mike Gapes]

I begin by thanking the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) for giving us the opportunity to have this extensive three days of discussion of the European Union and issues relating to it. I hope that we will have opportunities later this year and next year to continue such discussions so that we can at last begin to get through the fog of distortion that unfortunately is too prevalent in our newspapers.

I am pleased that the Foreign Secretary is in his place, and I will be quite happy to take interventions from him, even though he was too frit to take one from me. I want to remind the Foreign Secretary about referendums and the Conservative party. He was a Minister in John Major’s Government, who did not give a referendum on the Maastricht treaty. Just a few days ago, John Major was quoted as saying that the Bill was not worthy of his support, and that leaving the European Union would be “folly beyond belief”. Will the Foreign Secretary now intervene and tell me whether he agrees that leaving the European Union would be “folly beyond belief”? If he does not want to respond on that issue, he might wish to comment on Lord Heseltine’s statement that the whole process, which has been instigated by the Conservative party, is “an unnecessary gamble” with Britain’s future. [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) wishes to intervene rather than shouting at me, I will be happy to take an intervention. If anyone on the Government Benches wishes to intervene rather than muttering and shouting, I will happily give way. If not, I will carry on.

The hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), who unfortunately seems to have been in some kind of retreat since he lost the vote on his amendment, will be aware, as will other Members, that I voted for that amendment. I was the only Labour Member to do so. That has caused some confusion on the UKIP website, where messages are going out praising those brave souls who voted for a referendum in 2014. Of course, that includes me, and that is a bit contradictory given some of the other messages about me on the UKIP website; but they will get their line right eventually.

The hon. Gentleman did something very important in highlighting the fact that if we are to have an in/out referendum we should not create a situation of three or four years of unnecessary uncertainty. It has been said of Nissan, but it could apply to many other companies wishing to invest in the European market, whether from South Korea, China or the United States, that potential investment could be put at risk. Such companies could choose to go to another English-speaking country in the European single market, such as the Irish Republic or other countries where they could create investment with certainty beyond 2017 and into the future.

I do not wish to delay the House for too long, but I want to make some important points about this very bad Bill. The Bill has been amended only very specifically with regard to allowing people who are residents of the British overseas territory of Gibraltar to vote in the referendum. The original proposal presumably resulted from an oversight by the Government, who forgot about Gibraltar being part of the European Union in terms of voting in the European Parliament elections. However, British citizens in other British overseas territories will not be allowed to vote in the referendum, although their relationship with the European Union is central to many aspects of their life and their future, and UK membership has big implications for them as well. A few weeks ago, a Committee considered the relationship of the overseas territories of the UK, France and others to the European Union. Our overseas territories people have been rejected by a Conservative whipped vote against one of my amendments. As a result, this message should go out very clearly to British overseas citizens: “The Conservative party does not have your interests at heart—it doesn’t support you.”

Similarly, 1.4 million British people live elsewhere in the European Union. Many of those people—I have received e-mails from some of them—have been living in other European countries for more than 15 years and are therefore unable to register to vote in a European election or any other election in this country. They are excluded from the terms of this referendum, and their future could be put in jeopardy. If someone is living in Spain and suddenly their home country is no longer part of the European Union, and their citizenship is then of a non-EU state as opposed to an EU state, there could be huge implications for their future in Spain or in any other EU country. We are denying those people democracy.

Some people are claiming that I am being undemocratic because I am trying to subject—[Interruption.] Yes, some of them are over there on the Conservative Benches. These are the same people who voted against the right of British people living elsewhere in the European Union to have a vote in the referendum. That is what is undemocratic. Conservative Members do not believe that British people living elsewhere in Europe should have a say in this referendum. Only 20,000 people are currently registered as overseas voters, and therefore more than 1 million British people would not be able to take part in this process. Frankly, that is a disgrace.

There are other anomalies such as the situation of people who are married to citizens of other EU countries and living in Britain, with their children in schools or universities here. Those people have an intense interest in the relationship between the United Kingdom and the rest of the European Union. Yet, although we allow them to vote in European Parliament elections, we are to take away the right of those new Europeans to vote in a referendum on the relationship between the EU country from which they originally came and that in which they now live. That is another democratic disgrace. It is typical of the Conservative party. Instead of caring, it has decided to follow the little UKIP tail, which is now wagging the dog that is the Conservative party.

My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) has highlighted how the question has been drawn up for party political reasons. The Daily Mail revealed a few months ago that the original wording had been changed in order to make it more friendly for the Eurosceptics. Frankly, that is typical of this whole exercise. This Bill is not about democracy or giving the British people a choice; it is about the internal mechanics of the Conservative party and managing its internal divisions.

As has been said, this Parliament cannot commit a Parliament that will be elected in 2015 to doing something. The people behind this Bill and the Ministers involved know perfectly well that it is the decision at the 2015 general election that will make the difference. This is a political ploy to try to assuage the Europhobic wing of the Tory party and to keep them on board. The Foreign Secretary and other Ministers are playing a game with their colleagues.

I will not vote against this Bill today, because I believe that the House of Lords now has to subject it to the scrutiny that we have only been able to touch the surface of. The House of Lords needs to take up the issues in greater detail than we have been able to, look at the inadequacies of this woeful Bill and expose its contradictions. I do not know how long it will take the House of Lords to do that—this House might get the Bill back at some point—but it needs to do its job properly and not be bounced or have closure motions pushed on it to prevent it from properly scrutinising the provisions.

I am pleased to have played a small part in trying to ensure that this Bill has received proper scrutiny in this House, which is what parliamentary democracy is about. The day we move to plebiscitary democracy will be the day we undermine the rights of Members of Parliament, and that would be terrible.

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend is making a very important point. Does he agree that it is disgraceful that the Europe Minister dismissed out of hand the excellent points my hon. Friend has made and the excellent amendments he has tabled in order to facilitate this and previous debates?

[Mike Gapes]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s remarks.

In conclusion, I want to get to the heart of the issue and consider what the terms would be of any renegotiated settlement relevant to a 2017 referendum. We do not know when that will happen; it might happen during the British presidency, but the situation, like many other things in the Bill, is ambiguous. A few months ago, the Foreign Affairs Committee, which is a cross-party Committee with a wide spectrum of views on the issue of Europe, produced a report on which we agreed unanimously, in which we said that

“we are clear that UK proposals for pan-EU reforms are likely to find a more favourable reception than requests for further ‘special treatment’ for the UK. We are sceptical that other Member States would renegotiate existing EU law so as to allow the UK alone to reduce its degree of integration, particularly where this could be seen as undermining the integrity of the Single Market. The Government must reckon with the fact that the body of existing EU law is a collective product in which 27 countries have invested. Our sense is that other Member States want the UK to remain an EU Member. However, we do not think that a UK Government could successfully demand ‘any price’ from other Member States for promising to try to keep the UK in the Union.”

That is the essence of the point. The Government—at least the Conservative party—are trying to sell us a pig in a poke; they are trying to sell us a blank sheet of paper and they have not defined their terms for renegotiation. Indeed, the Foreign Secretary told the Foreign Affairs Committee that that process would not even start until after the general election.

The Bill is a disgrace; it should not be supported, and I hope that the House of Lords will do justice to it and amend it significantly.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.