European Union (Referendum) Bill

Lyn Brown Excerpts

Friday 29th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mike Gapes]

As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I always take your advice, having listened to it very carefully.

Amendment 52 is probably the most important amendment in the group. We have now voted for the referendum, if there is one, to take place by the end of 2017. Other proposed amendments to clause 3 have not been agreed to. Specifying the date of 1 March 2015 would oblige the Electoral Commission to present its proposals and recommendations about the conduct of the referendum not just well before the general election—which might be pertinent, because any incoming Government could bear in mind any difficulties that the Electoral Commission had highlighted—but at a time that would allow proper consideration and preparation, including legislation or any other measures that the Government might wish to take, to begin up to two and a half years before the referendum, given that, although we do not know the exact date of the referendum, we have been told that it must take place by the end of 2017.

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

I wonder whether my hon. Friend was as surprised as I was that his proposals were not already included in the Bill.

[Mike Gapes]

I tabled these amendments for many reasons, but the most important reason is that the Bill is inadequate. It has many flaws, and if it leaves the House of Commons unamended, the other place will have to give it proper consideration and try to remedy the failure of this place to improve it.

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[Mike Gapes]

Apart from the Minister, only two Conservative Members are present, namely the promoter of the Bill and his hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Simon Kirby), along with one Liberal Democrat. Oh, I am sorry: I forgot the Whip. Whips are almost anonymous, so I never notice them.

[Lyn Brown]

What?

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[Mike Gapes]

I have received several e-mails and letters from British people living in other European Union countries—indeed, there are websites for them—and they are outraged by the idea that they will have no say. Some have been living in France or Italy for more than 15 years but will be unable to register as overseas voters. As I pointed out on a previous Friday, of the millions of British citizens living abroad, only 20,000 are registered as overseas voters. It is a serious flaw in the Bill that British citizens in other parts of the European Union will not be able to participate, but we will consider that under another set of amendments.

I will make some progress. Amendment 17 is fundamentally important. As Members will recall, this House introduced a threshold for the Scottish referendum in the 1970s, which was defeated. As a result, the support for separatism did not secure the necessary figure. The Scottish people did not vote for separatism, but in any case the threshold was there as a safeguard to ensure that a small, vocal and impassioned minority was not able to drive through a fundamental change without the wholehearted consent of the Scottish people at the time.

I believe that a similar threshold should be included for this referendum to ensure that if there is a low turnout the result will not be binding. Amendment 17 proposes that the Electoral Commission should set down rules specifying that if

“fewer than 60 per cent of registered voters take part in the referendum, or the majority in favour of not remaining in the European Union comprises fewer than 40% of registered voters”,

the referendum would not be binding.

[Lyn Brown]

I am delighted that we are considering amendment 17, as the last time we had a politically generated referendum in this country—when we had the elections for police and crime commissioners—only 15% of the electorate voted. Has my hon. Friend heard any noises from the Government Benches on whether they accept his amendment?

[Mike Gapes]

The only noises I have heard from the Government Benches have not been complimentary about any of my amendments—and some of them were not made in the Chamber.

There is also a major danger that different nations or regions will vote in markedly different ways in a low-turnout referendum, with divisive consequences for our United Kingdom. Let us imagine, for the sake of argument, that next September the Scottish people vote against separatism and in favour of staying in the UK but in a referendum in 2017 a majority of the electorate votes to leave the European Union, based on votes in parts of England and with the vast majority of Scots voting to remain in the European Union. We would think that the referendum next September will settle the question of Scottish independence and separatism, but in fact the same issue could be reopened only two or so years later, even though the Scottish people voted to stay in the UK. They might say, “Hold on. We didn’t want to leave the European Union, which is part of our association with the two Unions we are part of: the United Kingdom and the European Union.” We could then have a real problem. The same argument could apply in Wales, Northern Ireland and significant parts of England.

Therefore, if we want to keep the unity and cohesion of our country, we need safeguards to avoid an extreme minority in certain parts of the country driving through, on a low turnout, a referendum result that would lead to the withdrawal of parts of the country that did not wish to leave the European Union and were not inspired by fanatics to take part in a referendum that they did not feel was particularly important.

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[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

This group of amendments deals with various matters pertaining to the detailed conduct of the proposed referendum.

Amendments 52 to 55 would impose deadlines on the Electoral Commission. Existing legislation gives the commission appropriate powers and responsibilities. Particularly as we do not yet know the exact date on which the referendum will take place, it would be wrong to impose undue inflexibility on the commission, as these amendments would.

Amendment 17 would impose thresholds. The Government believe that the referendum result should be determined, as in other referendums, by a simple majority of those who vote. Thresholds should not be required in respect of turnout or anything else.

[Lyn Brown]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Lidington]

No, I am going to make progress.

Amendments 5 to 7 and 84 propose arrangements for the referendum that would either duplicate or complicate arrangements that are set out clearly in existing primary legislation, namely the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.

Amendments 16, 64 and 65—

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[Chris Williamson]

Yes, that is a very regrettable fact of life. My hon. Friend’s intervention reinforces the notion behind my amendment that imposing a penalty would almost certainly increase the turnout. We have seen that this is what happens in Australia, for example. Because of the importance of this particular issue, any incentive we can provide to encourage people to participate would, I think, be all to the good. I hope that, as I have said, Government Members will consider the intentions behind my amendment and support it.

[Lyn Brown]

I find myself in the unique position of disagreeing with my hon. Friend on his amendment. I jib at the idea of forcing people to vote. Has he thought of any other mechanisms that might increase the vote, without being so prescriptive—electronic voting, for instance? Would that not achieve what he intends, which is to increase the number of people participating in this election?

[Chris Williamson]

That is certainly a valid point. As I was saying in my opening remarks, I understand that some people may feel a little uncomfortable about the notion of compelling people to vote. I think electronic voting is a worthy innovation that should be considered, and other options need to be considered in order to increase awareness and participation. It is really a matter for political parties to look at how their message is being communicated and how they can engage effectively with the electorate to encourage people to participate.

Let me come back to my central point. The proposition for a referendum could have fundamental implications for the United Kingdom. In these circumstances, even people such as my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown), who is a little uneasy about the notion of compulsory voting, need to consider it carefully, along with some of the other issues that she has identified.

Let us look at the Australian example, where I believe compulsory voting was introduced in 1924. Turnout in federal elections is never less than 90%. In the 2013 election, turnout was 93%. I would certainly hope that, if this referendum went ahead, we got a turnout of that order. If we were to achieve a turnout of 90%, or even 80%, we would certainly know that the British people had spoken. Whatever the British people decided, we would know that it had the confidence of the majority of the electorate in our country.

[Lyn Brown]

I hear what my hon. Friend says, and I have some sympathy with it. Does he not believe, however, that in the PCC elections the British people spoke volubly when they did not turn out to vote? The amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), which specified a turnout threshold to be reached, would suffice to reach the position sought by my hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) in his amendment.

[Chris Williamson]

I hear what my hon. Friend says. I shall come on in a few moments to comment briefly on the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South, particularly the one identified by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham. What she suggests would certainly be a safeguard, but I am not sure that it would be a strong enough safeguard. I generally support the amendments of my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South, and I am going to speak about them in a few moments.

The difference between the PCC election, in which as my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham pointed out the British people spoke volubly by their lack of participation, and the referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU is that the latter is absolutely fundamental and potentially irreversible. If on a turnout of, say, 15%, it was decided that the UK withdraw from the EU, the impact on the remaining 85%—actually, it would be more than 85% because I would assume that the 15% who participated would not have all voted the same way, making it potentially 90%—could be devastating. All those people could have their lives literally turned upside down by a tiny rump, a tiny proportion, of the British people—10%, say, if the turnout were that low. That is why I come back to the point that making it compulsory for people to vote would overcome the scenario that I have just outlined.

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[Lyn Brown]

I was going to take my hon. Friend back to the original premise of his amendment and ask whether he thought that, given how difficult it is for some of our press to deal with this issue in an even-handed way, if we did introduce compulsory voting, those of us who are on the vote no side might get blamed for that. The whole thing might backfire against those of us who wish to keep Britain firmly in the European Union.

[Chris Williamson]

I hope it does not. I believe that the force of our argument is so strong that it will convince a majority of the British people. I want to ensure that we get a strong turnout at the referendum and a very clear mandate from the British people. I am absolutely convinced that that mandate will be overwhelmingly to remain inside the European Union, because it is in the United Kingdom’s best interests to do so. We do not want a situation in which workers have their rights thrown on the bonfire. We do not want to see consumers losing their protection or millions of workers losing their jobs as a result of not having access to the single market.

[Lyn Brown]

May I just press my hon. Friend? Can he not see the headline in one of our nationals that says, “Europe forces you to vote now or lose £500.” We know how such things get inflated.

[Chris Williamson]

Indeed. I was just about to correct my hon. Friend’s figure.

[Lyn Brown]

Exactly.

[Chris Williamson]

I was thinking, “Hold on, did I put another zero in my amendment?” I clearly did not. There is a danger of the figure being inflated, so I accept what my hon. Friend says, but none the less I feel that it is important to give this incentive to the British people. Having heard all the arguments, I think that most people would want to participate in any event. The penalty would not be imposed on people who have a valid reason not to participate.