National Security and Russia

Madeleine Moon Excerpts

Monday 26th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. As I said earlier, those expulsions have taken place not just as a sign of support for the United Kingdom, but because it is important for the national security of those countries. The action will have an impact. The expulsion of 23 undeclared intelligence officers, which we have already undertaken here in the United Kingdom, will have a major impact on Russia’s intelligence network here in the UK, which I will make reference to later in my speech.

I said a little earlier that Russia has meddled in elections. It has hacked the Danish Ministry of Defence and the Bundestag, among many others. It is seeking to weaponise information, deploying its state-run media organisations to plant fake stories and photoshopped images in an attempt to sow discord in the west and undermine our institutions.

During his recent State of the Union address, President Putin showed video graphics of missile launches, flight trajectories and explosions, including the modelling of attacks on the United States, with a series of warheads impacting on Florida. Of course, Russia used radiological substances in its despicable assault here in London on Mr Litvinenko. Russia is also failing to honour its responsibilities in the international community as a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

At the NATO Parliamentary Assembly this weekend, the right hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) issued a statement to members. We had 100% support from all the NATO alliance parliamentarians for what happened and for our stance in relation to the blaming of Russia. One matter was raised: some of the members were concerned that Britain has very good chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear capability to investigate, but that many of them would not if such a thing were to happen on their soil. Does the Prime Minister agree that, if another NATO ally were attacked in this way, we should provide them with the capability that we have and that we have demonstrated so well?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Lady raises an important point. It is clear from the European Council that, within the EU, we will be looking at the whole question of enhancing our ability to deal with potential CBRN attacks. Regarding the wider group of countries to which she refers, I understand that the NATO summit this summer will be looking at the question of sharing capabilities. We recognise that certain countries hold certain capabilities and expertise, and it is important that they can be put to the use of others when necessary.

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[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

I spent last weekend at the NATO Parliamentary Assembly gathering for the spring session in Vilnius. There was a statement from the right hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon). We then discussed the attack that had taken place in the UK. I take great pleasure in telling Members that, from across political parties and across the nations of the Parliamentary Assembly, there was complete unanimity in condemning the attack and in recognising the source of the attack as coming from Putin’s Russia. The solidarity of the NATO alliance was wonderful to see.

This is not the first chemical weapons attack in the UK. We know of at least one other, and, yet, here we are again, deliberating on how we will look at our defence and security in the light of such attacks from Russia. We must understand that these attacks are part of ongoing hybrid warfare—not peace, but not war. They are a challenge to NATO states, and a threatening message to those within the Russian dissident community that their lives are at risk if they oppose the Putin Government.

This is Russian hybrid warfare in action. The aim is to sow insecurity, distrust and disinformation, to influence, to confuse, and to demoralise. According to Russian defence doctrine, this practice is called IPb—information confrontation. Its aim is to provide both information and psychological effects, neutralising political opposition and diffusing recognition of Russia’s interference in business, banking and politics. Typically, the information contains a mixture of true and false information. The majority of the information is true. That builds a trust in all of the message, which means a vulnerability to the lies and the influence messages being sent out. The messages often fit with the pre-existing world view of the intended audience, so they are easier to accept. We know that this is happening, and I cannot say how much I disagree with the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) in his belief that we are immune to such attacks; clearly, we are not.

Across the alliance, we have seen a growth of cyber-enabled psychological operations, compromising networks gathering intelligence information that can be used to embarrass, discredit or falsify information that is leaked to the media. German troops serving in Lithuania have had phone calls, telling them that their wives are having affairs. Those calls are an attempt to destabilise those troops defending Lithuania.

NATO parliamentarians have received phone calls from apparent friends asking them for their views and opinions on political matters. The voice sounds just like their colleague, but, in fact, it is someone impersonating their colleague. The conversation is then relayed on Russian media.

Since 2010, Russia has been building what it terms “information confrontation”—a holistic concept ensuring information superiority both during peace and war. It consists of hacktivists and CyberBerkut—false persona carrying out denial-of-service attacks against NATO, Ukrainian, German, US and Estonian sites, among others. These people leak documents to demoralise and embarrass. Trolls are online commentators who seek to change the narrative of a story to turn it in Russia’s favour. The Russian Internet Research Agency blogs and tweets on behalf of the Kremlin. Bots are automated pushers of content on social media. They drown out unwanted content or push a specific message, sometimes overwhelming the information space, drowning out real information and facts.

Interestingly, Russia does not believe in a free internet for its own subjects. It has laws curbing domestic media and increasing control of technology and content; it bans websites; monitors online activity and limits news media ownership. During a Defence Committee visit to Russia, we took evidence about the intimidation and murder of journalists and the constant harassment and intimidation of political figures.

We must wake up. The west is being attacked. Systematic information warfare is being waged against us. We should not see the attack in Salisbury as simply a chemical attack; it is part of a concerted attack. I urge the Government to establish an independent Russia commission to examine the role that Russia is playing in our social media and in our financial, business, political and legal spheres. We need to educate our public, as the Lithuanians have done, in how to recognise these cyber-enabled psychological operations.

The public needs to know that there is a campaign to destroy and disrupt NATO command, control, communications and intelligence capabilities. This is all very real to the 800 British soldiers heading up the forces in the enhanced forward presence in Estonia. They are there to protect Estonia and to enhance Euro-Atlantic security. The men and women of the Royal Welsh are providing the alliance’s combat-capable infantry force. Estonia is now Britain’s eastern border, so an attack on the Baltic states is an attack on Britain. We must recognise that and understand that our forces are now our frontline.

Distrust, disinformation and disregard sum up the Russian approach towards the latest, and arguably most serious, situation we are witnessing towards our country and our allies. Our allies and our people require us to stay strong and to acknowledge the threats that are being sent in our direction.

Salisbury Incident

Madeleine Moon Excerpts

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

As my hon. Friend will know, we are one of the limited number of countries in NATO that maintain the commitment to spending 2% of GDP on defence. As I am sure he also knows, the modernising defence programme is currently being undertaken alongside the national security capability review. It is important for us to be able to deal with the variety of threats that we face. However, I must say to my hon. Friend, as I have said to other Members, that as we look at how we deal with those threats, not all of them will be dealt with in a way that would conventionally be considered a matter for the Ministry of Defence.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister has rightly said that the attacks in Britain have been part of an ongoing contempt for Britain, contempt for the rule of law and contempt for our values. There has also been a contempt for our alliances, both political and military. Will the Prime Minister work with those political and military alliances, so that together we can bring about a root-and-branch removal of Russian interference in our political, educational and financial institutions? Let this be a marker: no more. Now they will fear what we will do to hit back at the interference that they have shown us.

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the hon. Lady for the commitment that she has shown, as a parliamentarian, to the alliance that we have through NATO, which is very important to us It is the bedrock of European defence. I can certainly say that we will continue to work through those alliances to ensure that we are sending a very clear message that this is not acceptable.

Contaminated Blood Inquiry

Madeleine Moon Excerpts

Monday 29th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Chloe Smith]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that question. I shall pass it to my colleagues in the Department of Health and Social Care who remain responsible for the policy on victims and the funding, as it operates today. The inquiry, about which I am answering today, is about how the situation came about and the more historical nature of things, but I shall ensure that her questions, which are of course in the minds of many hon. Members in relation to constituents who are suffering now, are heard by the Department, as it might be able to provide her with an answer.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

The Minister must be tolerant if there is a cynicism about the “shortly”. An urgent question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) brought us here in July, when we asked urgently for the inquiry to be moved into the orbit of the Cabinet Office, but that took four months to do. We were promised a judge in December, but we are still waiting. Given that we are now at the end of January, does “shortly” mean before the end of February? Can we at least give ourselves some hope that we will not need another urgent question from my hon. Friend to bring us back here again, nagging for a decision?

[Chloe Smith]

Mr Speaker, I do not think we will need to trouble either you or hon. Members for another urgent question. I do expect us to be able to return promptly to the House with an update—the update that the House rightly asks for and our constituents and the victims of this scandal rightly require. We are working hard and fast so that victims come first and can be served by a judge as quickly as possible.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Madeleine Moon Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Monday 4th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies]

Absolutely. My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Of course, the Government’s whole purpose is to ensure there is a single market within the United Kingdom. We cannot have a situation where different nation states within the United Kingdom go off and do their own thing. If that were to happen, we would have exactly the problem that some Opposition Members complain will occur when we leave the European Union. That is what we are about today.

If one judges the Government by their actions, rather than on the words of Opposition Members, one can see that, actually, this Government and this Conservative party have, over and again, given extra powers to the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Welsh Assembly. Sometimes they have been rather more enthusiastic in doing that than I would choose, but we saw it happen in 2011 and we are about to see a huge tranche of extra powers being handed over to the Welsh Assembly on 1 April 2018. The Conservative party has shown it is very willing to give extra powers to the devolved Parliaments and, to some extent, I suppose I agree with that approach. I sometimes think it is happening a bit too quickly, but it will certainly happen again. So I completely support what the Government are doing here today. They are doing what all those on the other side of the House are calling for: bringing about Brexit in a stable and controlled fashion that allows us to move forward with certainty. It is inevitable that this will lead to further powers going to the devolved Parliaments—it may not happen straightaway, but it will happen. Not one single power is coming back to London as a result of these measures; there is not one single thing that can be done by the Scottish Parliament or the Welsh Assembly today that they will not be able to do once this Bill is passed.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman was a Member of the Welsh Assembly for some considerable time. Is he saying that if he were still there he would not be arguing in Wales, in the Welsh Assembly, for the powers in the 140 distinct policy areas that have devolved responsibility, many of them in relation to the environment, to come back to the Welsh Assembly? Would he be happy for the Westminster Parliament to make those decisions on behalf of Wales?

[David T. C. Davies]

I can say to the hon. Lady that that is exactly what I am saying to her. May I remind her that in 2003 I had an election leaflet that had the headline “No more powers for the Welsh Assembly” and I was given one of the biggest majorities of anyone in Wales? That is something to think about. So “yes” is the answer to that question.

This Government are doing a superb job. All sorts of people and the commentators will once again be, in the newspapers tomorrow trying to find little reasons to undermine this process. It is quite a complicated process, but I say from the bottom of my heart that I think these Ministers are doing a superb job, and they are being supported not just by their Back Benchers or all those who voted to leave the European Union, but by a majority of people in Wales, who also voted to leave the EU and are not being respected by the Labour party, Plaid Cymru and whatever is left of the Liberal Democrats. More power to them, and I look forward to joining them in the Lobby tonight.

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[John Lamont]

I will speak to the measures that relate to Scottish devolution, particularly clause 11, which we have heard so much about during this debate. However, before I do so, I want briefly to talk about my role in this process, and indeed that of other Scottish Conservative and Unionist Members here and in the Scottish Parliament. Our job is to ensure that the Bill is in a form that will ensure that the Scottish Parliament can give its approval through the legislative consent procedure. It is fair to say that without a legislative consent motion, the Brexit process will shudder to a halt and create a constitutional crisis. It is therefore imperative that the consent of the Scottish Parliament is achieved.

[Mrs Moon]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way.

[John Lamont]

No, I just want to make a little bit of progress.

Although I do not support the amendments proposed by the Scottish and Welsh Governments—I will try to outline my reasons why—I do think that the UK Government need to do more to find a way forward with the devolved Administrations. The leader of the SNP here, the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford), completely misjudged the tone of the debate. Peddling lines about “power grabs” when the complete opposite has clearly been stated to be the case really was staggering. Moreover, I was astonished that the hon. Members for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) and for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) seemed to be supporting the Scottish Government’s amendments, which would do so much harm to the integrity of the UK internal market and to Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom, given that so many of their voters voted overwhelmingly for Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom in 2014.

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[John Lamont]

It is my colleagues on the Government Benches who have made the Scottish Parliament as powerful as it is today. The Scottish Secretary has given a guarantee that, after Brexit, the Scottish Parliament will have even more powers. The problem with the amendment that the hon. Lady intends to support is that it goes too far. It would harm the internal market of the United Kingdom and undermine Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom. I do not believe that that was what the voters of Edinburgh West or of Edinburgh South voted for when they voted for their MPs, with their Unionist credentials, back in June.

[Mrs Moon]

I just find this debate absolutely ironic. We talk about the power of the devolved Assemblies at a time when one individual, in a quick phone call with the Prime Minister, can scupper the whole policy and the whole plans for devolution. Nobody from the Democratic Unionist party is in the Chamber to argue their case. DUP Members will go into the Lobby to vote, but they will not come here to argue their case. That is the shame of this debate. There is no parallel between what is happening in Northern Ireland, and what is happening in Scotland and Wales.

[John Lamont]

The hon. Lady should perhaps look at last week’s discussions between the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Deputy First Minister for Scotland about how powers should be divided between this place and the Scottish Parliament. I believe that genuine progress is being made, but we should not rush it.

European Council

Madeleine Moon Excerpts

Monday 23rd October 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising an important point. It is indeed our intention to be able to ensure that during the implementation period we are able to conduct negotiations so that, when we reach the end state of our future partnership, we can open those trade arrangements with other nations around the world.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

There are two sets of documents that it would be helpful if the Prime Minister released to the House while we consider the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. Is she willing to release the impact studies showing how Brexit will impact across Departments and across the UK, and also the legal advice on the powers that the House will assume for the devolved Administrations, many of which feel the House has no responsibility for subjects that are within their purview? Will she release those documents, please?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Lady talks about devolution and the arrangements with the devolved Administrations. We have been very clear about the issue, and we want to ensure that, when the powers that are currently with Brussels are brought back to the UK, we have a discussion and negotiation about those areas where we need to ensure we have UK frameworks in place. Her party’s Front Benchers suggest that, in fact, the powers should be devolved immediately to Northern Ireland—when there is an Executive—Scotland and Wales. Of course, that could lead to the break-up of the UK internal market, which is of most importance to those devolved Administrations.

Oral Answers to Questions

Madeleine Moon Excerpts

Wednesday 1st March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I think both Philip and Sally are very reassured by what the Prime Minister has just said.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

Along the M4 corridor in south Wales, over 1,000 families woke up this morning deeply worried about potential job losses at Ford in Bridgend. Families in Ogmore and Bridgend are particularly frightened—frightened that Ford is not going to be able to bring new contracts into the factory, with the uncertainty of Brexit ahead. Can I have an assurance from the Prime Minister that she will arrange for her Ministers to meet Ford and Unite the union to see what can be done to support Ford to ensure continuity of engine production in the Bridgend plant?

[The Prime Minister]

Can I reassure the hon. Lady that our automotive sector is one of the most productive in the world? We want to see it going from strength to strength. That is why Ministers in this Government have been engaging with various companies within the automotive sector, including Ford and other companies. Ford is an important investor here; it has been established here for over 100 years. We now account for around a third of Ford’s global engine production, and Bridgend continues to be an important part of that. We have had, as I said, dialogue with Ford; we will continue to have a regular dialogue with Ford about the ways in which Government can help to make sure that this success continues.

UK's Nuclear Deterrent

Madeleine Moon Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Yes. The whole point of a deterrent is that our enemies need to know that we would be prepared to use it, unlike the suggestion that we could have a nuclear deterrent but not actually be willing to use it, which seemed to come from the Labour Front Bench.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

I am sure the Prime Minister is aware that Russia has 10 times the amount of tactical nuclear weapons as the whole of the rest of NATO. On a recent Defence Committee visit to Russia, we were told by senior military leaders that they reserved the right to use nuclear weapons as a first strike. Should that not make us very afraid if we ever thought of giving up our nuclear weapons?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. As I pointed out earlier, Russia is also modernising its nuclear capability. It would be a dereliction of our duty, in terms of our responsibility for the safety and security of the British people, if we were to give up our nuclear deterrent.

We must send an unequivocal message to any adversary that the cost of an attack on our United Kingdom or our allies will always be far greater than anything it might hope to gain through such an attack. Only the retention of our own independent deterrent can do this. This Government will never endanger the security of our people and we will never hide behind the protection provided by others, while claiming the mistaken virtue of unilateral disarmament.

Let me turn to the question of our moral duty to lead nuclear disarmament. Stopping nuclear weapons being used globally is not achieved by giving them up unilaterally. It is achieved by working towards a multilateral process. That process is important and Britain could not be doing more to support this vital work. Britain is committed to creating the conditions for a world without nuclear weapons, in line with our obligations under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

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[Dr Murrison]

My hon. Friend is right, and the speech by the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) was also extremely powerful.

The redundancy proposition holds that advancing technology will make the continuous at-sea nuclear deterrent redundant. It is supposed—despite all evidence to the contrary—that unmanned underwater vessels will appear and render our oceans transparent, but that is pure supposition. We cannot approach our defence on the basis of what might happen in the future. History is usually a guide in these matters, and this year we mark the centenary of the introduction of tanks into the battle space. We could have said then, “We must not develop this technology because of the possibility of sticky bombs and tank traps”, but we did not.

[Mrs Moon]

One lesson from history must be from Nye Bevan, who said as Foreign Secretary that he should not be sent

“naked into the conference chamber”.

What sort of emperor in new clothing would go into a conference chamber with President Putin, for example, and say, “I don’t have nuclear weapons—well, I have some nuclear-powered subs, but there are no weapons on them”?

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Lady is right. I am enjoying the consensual nature of this debate—it is the House of Commons at its very best. In 1929, J. F. C. Fuller said that tanks would make infantry redundant. In a sense he was right, but his timeframe was completely wrong, and the infantry was adapted rather than abolished. The imminent end of manned fighters was confidently predicted in a 1957 Government White Paper. The important point, which the hon. Lady was trying to make, is that we cannot base our defence on what we imagine might happen.

The threat of cyber and of unmanned underwater vessels should invigorate our countermeasures and our attempts to detect and potentially disrupt aggressors. Nevertheless, just as the Lightning II joint strike fighter may have only half a life before it is rendered obsolescent, we must be open to the possibility that the Successor submarine may at some point over its long life be made obsolete. However, I do not think that a sufficient argument to deploy against the decision we will make today.

The second proposition that I want to touch on is that of reputation theory. The argument is that unilateralism will in some way raise our standing internationally, but that is hopelessly naive. Try saying that to people in Ukraine; try waving the Budapest memo at them. Many will say that had Ukraine not given up its share of the USSR’s nuclear armamentarium—about a third of it—when it became independent, its territory would now be assured and it would not have been invaded by Russia. I do not want to take that argument too far, because others will make counter arguments about the wisdom of Ukraine having nuclear weapons—personally, I am pleased it does not—but from the perspective of a state that is trying to face down an aggressor, that is a powerful argument.

Some say that if we cut our nuclear arsenal others will follow, but there is no evidence to suggest that that is the case. We have cut our arsenal dramatically in recent years, yet other states have increased theirs.

Finally, in this atmosphere of Brexit, when we are re-forging our links with other international organisations and operating in an outward-facing way that I find refreshing, we must think about our permanent membership of the UN Security Council. That membership is contingent on this country offering something. It may pain some right hon. and hon. Members to ponder this, but in large part our membership of that body is down to our continued possession of this terrible weapon.

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[Ruth Smeeth (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)]

I am a proud member of both the GMB and Unite trade unions and I stand here today to make the case for our national security, both in terms of the role of the deterrent in an increasingly turbulent world, and for our domestic defence manufacturing capability.

Our country is at a crossroads. Just weeks ago we voted to leave the European Union and to forge our own destiny, but we must do this as part of the family of nations and the global community, embracing our responsibilities as a permanent member of the UN Security Council and as a founder member of the NATO alliance, not running away from them. To be clear, I view the renewal of our continuous at-sea deterrent as a necessary evil. I, like all of us in the Chamber, would like to see a nuclear-free world, but this can be achieved only by international co-operation and be negotiated only from a position of strength.

To disarm ourselves unilaterally would not just be to abandon our responsibilities to our international allies, but would leave us at the mercy of other nuclear powers and would send us, in the words of Nye Bevan, so ably quoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon),

“naked into the conference-chamber”.

At a time of unprecedented global turmoil, it would be utter recklessness to abandon a fundamental element of our national security in the name of some abstract ideological objection, however well meaning.

[Mrs Moon]

Should we not get this into some sort of perspective? By 2020 the UK’s stockpile of nuclear weapons will be no more than 180, with only 120 operationally available, whereas Russia, China and North Korea have between 6,500 and 8,500 between them.

[Ruth Smeeth]

My hon. Friend ably outlines the threat we really face.

The horrific attacks in Nice last week were just the latest reminder of the risks we face. We are living through a period of extraordinary global turmoil, with threats coming from not just international terrorist networks but a resurgence in tensions between state actors—not least Russia, as the Defence Committee outlined only this month. Not only should Russian actions in Crimea, Ukraine and the Arctic give us pause for thought, but the Russian nuclear doctrine has also changed radically, and for the worse, since the end of the cold war. Not since the fall of the Berlin wall has our deterrent been so critical to our national security. Russia, with its use of increasingly hostile rhetoric, is lowering its nuclear threshold. This is, therefore, no time for Britain to abandon our nuclear capabilities or our commitments to our friends and allies.

Our military is rightly widely admired as the best in the world, and we in this place owe it to the members of our military to ensure that they are provided with the resources and support they need to ensure that our country is prepared for any scenario. However, we must also look closer to home—to the security of our communities and our economy. On that basis, the argument for our deterrent is unquestionable. Tens of thousands of jobs depend on our commitment to the Successor programme.

Outcome of the EU Referendum

Madeleine Moon Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I made a pledge to hold a renegotiation and a referendum. I kept that pledge, and we carried it through in this House. I am sure that we have all got lessons to learn, but all I can say is that I threw absolutely everything into that campaign. I believed head, heart and soul in what I was saying. I was absolutely convinced of the merits of my case, and I did everything I could to get it across. But, in the end, if you hold a vote like that and you lose, you have got to accept the view of the British people. In my view, accepting it means that you have also got to accept that it is time for someone else to take the leadership of this great country forward, and that is why I have done what I have done. We have all got, I am sure, lessons we have learned and all the rest of it, but I am proud of the action that I took and the fact that I fought as hard as I did.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

Forty-eight per cent. of the country wake up sick at heart and angry every day. Now, large numbers of people who actually voted for Brexit are also waking up sick and angry when they find out they were lied to about money for the NHS and about immigration. How does the Prime Minister hope to build unity in this country with a Government who may well include people who misled the British public in this referendum?

[The Prime Minister]

We now have to come back as one Government who have accepted the will of the British people to leave the European Union, and we have to find the best way for our country as we do that. That should be the focus. There is no point refighting the campaign. We have had the campaign and we have had the decision, and now we have to make it the best we can for our country.

ISIL in Syria

Madeleine Moon Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sir Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con)]

As all of us are trying to show responsibility and duty, I do not think there is anybody on either side of the House who in any way relishes the decision we are being asked to take today. It is not straightforward, like the response to the invasions of Kuwait and the Falklands. It is a very difficult decision we are being asked to take, and in taking it we must have two issues at the forefront of our thinking: first, the security of our own country and, secondly, the desperate need to restore stability in the middle east.

But rather than rehearse all the arguments, I would just like to emphasise a few points which I would ask the House solemnly to consider. The question of whether to commit our armed forces has over the last few years become seriously muddied both by the painful experience of past decisions and by the complexity of the unfolding disorder across the Arab world. The experience of Afghanistan in part—to which the Leader of the Opposition referred—and of Iraq more significantly, has led to growing reticence, and indeed distrust, in this House and outside it about any proposal for military action. So the first point I would like to emphasise is that we must take the decision today based on the merits of today; we must base it on today’s facts and not on yesterday’s mistakes and regrets.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Alan Duncan]

Before giving way quickly, may I politely point out to the Stop the War Coalition that when it comes to Syria, stopping the war is exactly what we want to do.

[Mrs Moon]

I absolutely agree that what we need are facts and greater clarity about our capability to take on the task that is ahead of us. Yesterday we were told there were between 20,000 and 30,000 Daesh across Syria and Iraq, but I could not be given a number as to how many Taliban we were fighting in Afghanistan, to get a comparator, when we had 10,000 of our troops and 30,000 Americans fighting them. I could not get that, and I could not get an answer as to how often we had used our Brimstone missiles and how many more planes we would be flying. Don’t we need those questions answered?

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am sorry, but interventions must be brief; they must not be mini-speeches, however well intentioned.

Syria

Madeleine Moon Excerpts

Thursday 26th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is right. That is one of the reasons we are saying that we are going to refashion the budget to ensure that half of it focuses on fragile and conflict-bound states.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

Thirty per cent. of ISIL-held land in Iraq has been retained, but 70% remains in its hands. Why is it not right for us to help our allies by clearing the problem of Daesh in Iraq, building a pluralistic state in which Sunnis see a potential future that they can support, and taking the commitment to Iraq before we move on to Syria?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Lady has asked a very good question, to which I think there are two answers. First, I do not think it is possible to complete the work in Iraq without dealing with Daesh in Syria; it does not recognise a border and we are recognising it. Secondly, although ISIL is a threat to us wherever it is, the head of the snake—the biggest part of the threat—is around Raqqa, which is in Syria.