Public Service Pensions Bill

Lord Sharkey Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Sharkey]

34: Clause 5, page 3, line 8, leave out subsection (1) and insert—
“(1) Scheme regulations for a scheme under section 1 must provide for the establishment of a board, at least one third of whose members must be members of the scheme or their representatives, with responsibility for assisting and making recommendations to the scheme manager in relation to the following matters.”

[Lord Sharkey]

My Lords, this amendment has two purposes. The first is to put into the Bill the requirement that pension boards have at least one-third of their members who are members of the underlying scheme. The second is to make certain that these pension boards universally have some influence and are not entirely to be emasculated by the scheme regulators. The drafting of the Bill leaves the exact powers and responsibility of the boards to be defined by the scheme regulators, saying only that the boards are to assist the scheme manager. As I said at Second Reading, the word “assist” is virtually meaningless in this context and that is why this amendment also gives a board the explicit power to make recommendations to the scheme manager.

The question of scheme members being members of their scheme’s pension board should not be controversial; as the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, mentioned a moment ago, recommendation 17 of the report of the noble Lord, Lord Hutton, says explicitly that every public service pension scheme and individual LGPS fund should have a properly constituted, trained and competent pension board with member nominees. The Government agree with this principle. In Committee in the Commons, the Minister said that Lord Hutton recommended that each pension scheme local board should have a pension board and the board should include member representatives. We agree.

Lord Hutton, on pages 125 and 126 of his report, explains what factors led to this recommendation. He notes that there are currently boards where members are sometimes not formally represented. He notes with approval that the majority of local authorities have some form of member representation in their governance arrangements. However, he also noted that it seemed that only a very small minority of member representatives had full voting rights. He quotes evidence given to his commission by UNISON that,

“by 2009 only seven of the 89 England and Wales Fund authorities had allowed voting by scheme members of pension committees”.

That is not representation, that is tokenism. It is still tokenism even after Government Amendment 40 in this group. All this amendment does is to require that members of a scheme must be represented on the scheme’s pension board. It is entirely silent about the size of this representation.

This whole issue of size of member representation on pension boards was discussed in some detail at Committee stage in the Commons. There, Chris Leslie proposed an amendment that would have resulted in one-third of pension board members being scheme members. The Government declined to agree. The Minister said:

“There is no objection in principle to having scheme-member-nominated representation on pension boards. That is our policy. Our objection is to applying a private sector standard to the public sector schemes without considering whether that is appropriate given the different structures and contexts of public schemes. Unlike the private sector, the public schemes span large work forces and multiple employers”.—[Official Report, Commons, Public Service Pensions Bill Committee, 8/11/12; cols 267-68.]

This refers to a provision in the Pensions Act 2004; Section 241 of this Act requires pension boards in the private sector to have at least one-third of their members to be members of the underlying scheme. The Minister’s arguments, that what the private sector is forced to do by statute is not appropriate as a statutory provision for the public sector, seems to me to be on very weak ground. I would specifically ask the Minister to explain in detail why we can happily have a one-third rule in statute for private pension schemes but not for public pension schemes.

In the Commons, in Committee, the Government attempted to resolve the argument over the size of member representation in part by saying:

“I can tell the hon. Gentleman that for various schemes, there is already extensive work going on draft schemes and draft policies … Once he sees that, he will see that a lot of the concerns that he understandably has about representation will be addressed”.—[Official Report, Commons, Public Service Pensions Bill Committee, 8/11/12; col. 269.]

The Minister said he was happy to release some of those drafts. Could I ask the noble Lord the Minister to make those drafts also available to this House to help us in our deliberations? It may be that, as Sajid Javid said, these drafts will in fact help. But until we can see and discuss them, I think that the Minister must explain from first principles why it is wrong to guarantee significant member representation on pension boards by writing this requirement on to the face of the Bill. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn)]

My Lords, if this amendment were to be agreed I could not call Amendment 35 due to pre-emption.

--- Later in debate ---

Amendment 38 would also give a pension board in an unfunded, pay-as-you-go public service pension scheme a role in the scheme’s financial management. Schedule 4 already extends legislation to require appropriate internal controls on the financial management of scheme assets and payments to the public service schemes. These matters are already within the scope of pension boards by virtue of Clause 5(2). These responsibilities represent an appropriate role in the financial management of the schemes. In our view, it would not be appropriate for a pension board to have a wider role in the finances of public service schemes. For these reasons, we feel strongly that this amendment is inappropriate. I hope that the noble Lord will be content, therefore, to withdraw it.

[Lord Sharkey]

I thank the Minister for the promise to give us sight of the draft scheme regulations; that might be very helpful. I continue to believe that it is a mistake to leave the number of member representatives to the scheme regulations. Who protects the interests of the scheme members as the regulations draw up the plan for these boards? Consultation does not do that. Consultation is very well and fine and should take place, but it does not necessarily protect the interests of the scheme members.

I also wonder what mechanisms will prevent or cure the non-voting tokenism identified in evidence by the noble Lord, Lord Hutton. I find that I am unconvinced, on the whole, by the Government’s responses on this issue. It is clear, however, that there is substantial concern in the Committee about this whole area and I expect that we shall return to the question on Report. In the mean time I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 34 withdrawn.