Football Governance Bill [HL]

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 4th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

Okay, maybe not. My point is that employment lawyers are very wary about something as definitive as this, which involves disciplinary procedures. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, made a very valid and fair point that, at the very least, we need to know the potential scenarios and circumstances that may arise. That would allow us, without any concern, to accept this in the Bill. At the moment, it is overly restrictive, and it could give rise to unfairness and onerous intervention directly by Ministers. On that basis, at the very least, we need to have more information about this before Report. Like my noble friend Lord Hayward, I feel deeply uncomfortable about having such prescriptive wording in primary legislation.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the thought that noble Lords have given to the amendments in this group and to the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, for tabling them so that we can consider them. As the noble Lord, Lord Addington, rightly said, one of the first things that people do when they receive a new government Bill is to go through it and look for the “mays” and the “musts” and consider why they have been put there and what the counterargument would be if the other word were used.

I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Hayward and Lord Jackson of Peterborough, who have brought their professional and personal backgrounds and their qualifications to the scrutiny of this. Like them, I think that we must be careful of being too prescriptive here and of limiting the role of the professionals we are appointing, particularly as this is an independent regulator. We want it to act independently and have a bit of professional discretion. However, the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, have an important point that motivated them to bring the amendments, which would limit the discretionary ability of both the independent football regulator and its chief executive officer in cases of misconduct or where an individual is not able to perform his or her duties, whether they are a non-executive director, an executive director or a member of the expert panel.

Clearly, if this new regulator is to enjoy the support of fans and the businesses and clubs that it regulates, it must uphold and be seen to be upholding the very highest standards. It is good to pose the question of whether this discretionary power should be written in the Bill as it is. The discretionary power as written would allow the independent regulator the ability to keep an individual in place, even in cases where he or she is guilty of misconduct, has a conflict of interest, has failed to provide appropriate information to the chief executive or is unfit, unwilling or unable to carry out his or her functions. That is quite a serious list of reasons, so I can see why the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, have posed this question to the Committee. While I share some of the scepticism that my noble friends have set out, I am more sympathetic than might be expected.

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Moved by

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay]

42: Schedule 2, page 90, line 16, after “six” insert “or more than twenty”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment limits the number of members of the Expert Panel.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 42 and to speak to Amendments 45, 47 and 49, which are grouped with it. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Markham who has put his name to them. These amendments seek to provide greater guidance on the operation of the expert panel that will be established under the Bill to ensure that those who are involved in the panel and its work are limited in number, do not have any broadcast interests, are limited in pay and must exercise their functions transparently. These amendments reflect our commitment to ensuring robust, transparent and impartial governance for football to safeguard the integrity of the game. I will speak now to Amendments 42 and 45 and say a bit more about Amendments 47 and 49 in my winding speech.

Amendment 42 would limit the number of members on the expert panel to no more than 20. The Bill already specifies no fewer than six, but the amendment would insert the words “or more than twenty”. It is in our view a sensible and pragmatic measure. Governance structures function best when they strike a balance between having diversity of experience and opinion and having operational agility and efficiency. By setting this range between six and 20, we think we can help to ensure that the panel is large enough to encompass a breadth of expertise while avoiding the pitfalls of having an unwieldy and bureaucratic decision-making body.

We have heard about a lot of the similarities between this Bill and its predecessor that was looked at in another place in the previous Parliament, but this is another instance where the Government have decided to make some changes to the Bill. When I was going through it comparing the previous version to this one, this change perplexed me more than others. When the Bill before the previous Parliament was introduced by the Conservative Government, we capped the membership of the expert panel at 20. Will the Minister explain the policy rationale behind making this change to the Bill and removing the cap?

In football governance, clarity and focus are surely paramount, so this amendment that in effect takes us back to the previous Bill is, as noble Lords might expect, in keeping with Conservative values of efficient, streamlined and effective governance and will ensure that the expert panel is equipped to make sound decisions without succumbing to the inefficiencies of an excessively large committee. I hope these arguments will resonate with noble Lords whatever their political allegiances.

Amendment 45 echoes the debate we had previously on conflicts of interest relating to the chairman of the panel and would prohibit individuals with current media interests relating to football serving on the expert panel much in the same way as my Amendment 36, which we looked at earlier. I do not think we need to rehash the philosophical arguments behind that. I hope that the Minister will dwell a little on the need to make sure that we ensure impartiality for members of the expert panel just as much as we would for the chairman.

Football is a sport that attracts passionate commentary and debate, particularly across the media. While, as we heard previously, live perspectives are invaluable in their own right, the work of the expert panel must remain beyond reproach. Again, I worry slightly that people with active media roles could risk stumbling into conflicts of interest or, at the very least, the perception of them, which could undermine the important work of the panel and its credibility.

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[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, at the beginning, I said I would speak to my Amendments 47 and 49 in my winding-up speech, but I said what I wanted to say about them then, so I shall not elaborate on them now. I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Hayward and Lord Jackson of Peterborough in particular for their support, and obviously to my noble friend Lord Markham, who signed the amendments.

To pick up what my noble friend Lord Hayward said, this is not intended to be perfect wording—this is a probing amendment. He is absolutely right to refer to adding timescales as an important matter of consideration. My noble friend Lord Jackson gave another argument in our useful discussion about the dangers of having somebody with a current live media interest serving in different capacities in these roles. If they are privy to sensitive information about the leagues and clubs, which are multi-million pound businesses in many cases, a careless word or an evasive answer in an interview or on a TV show panel could give the game away—all too literally.

I simply reiterate the questions that I put to the Minister in my opening speech: whether she sees a role for a cap on salaries at all, and whether the Government intend to publish their expectations for remuneration, even if they do not set out a figure. We would be grateful to hear an explanation of the reason for the change between the last Bill and this one, on the removal of the upper limit.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, for tabling these amendments on the expert panel. The regulator’s independent expert panel will be responsible for making various important decisions across the regulator’s regime when and where it is appropriate. It is important that the panel has a range of expertise and experience to reflect this. The number of members of the expert panel is to be determined by the chief executive officer in response to the operational need. The Government do not want to restrain the effectiveness of the expert panel by introducing an arbitrary cap on the maximum number of its members. In our view, the regulator needs the flexibility to react in the event of high workload for the panel. The regulator would still need to deliver value for money, and has a regulatory principle encouraging this, so we do not believe that the CEO would appoint and maintain an unnecessarily large panel.

The Government acknowledge the intent behind Amendment 45 and other similar amendments to fortify the provisions in the Bill for dealing with conflicts of interest. It is essential that the regulator can deliver its regime free from undue influence and vested interests. I would like to reassure noble Lords that the Bill, supported by public law principles and non-legislative measures already in place, already sufficiently makes certain that the regulator will be free from conflicts of interest. For example, the Bill already places an onus on the chief executive officer to check for conflicts of interest at the point of making an appointment to the expert panel, and on an ongoing basis from time to time. In addition, the Bill sets out that the chief executive officer must ensure that the expert panel has the relevant range of skills, knowledge and experience.

It is possible that this amendment would limit the ability of the chief executive officer to do this, as it would restrict the pool of potential members of the expert panel. This, in turn, could hinder the IFR’s ability to fulfil its objectives. All in all, we are confident that these are comprehensive safeguards to examine and manage conflicts of interest appropriately. As noble Lords discussed earlier in relation to the composition of the board, we do not think it is appropriate to arbitrarily rule out specific sectors or sector interests.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, for Amendment 47. The Government very much appreciate the importance of ensuring that the regulator offers value for money. The regulator will be required to lay its annual accounts before Parliament and the Comptroller and Auditor-General for scrutiny. The regulator will also be subject to pay remit guidance in the same way as central government departments ensure that pay rises are justifiable. This will ensure value for money to taxpayers and operational flexibility for the regulator. Having a maximum salary in legislation would leave the regulator potentially unable to adapt to inflation and market changes. This could leave it without the expertise necessary to make critical decisions that allow the regulator to effectively deliver its remit.

Finally, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, for tabling Amendment 49 on the transparency and accountability of the regulator. The Government very much agree that it is vital that the regulator is transparent and able to be held accountable by Parliament and others. Therefore, there are already a number of provisions in the Bill that ensure this. The exercise of the regulator’s functions will be reviewed in the regulator’s annual report. The Secretary of State and Parliament will be able to scrutinise these reports, which will be laid before Parliament. On the expert panel, the legislation already sets out a number of requirements to publish decisions and the reasons for them.

On this point, it is important for noble Lords to focus on the fact that transparency in decision-making is hugely important, but it is also really important that individual panel members can act without fear or favour, and that ultimately the regulator as a whole stands behind the decisions it makes. In my view and the view of the Government, it will also be necessary, in some instances, for details to remain private for commercial, personal or other sensitive reasons. For the reasons I have set out, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister for her responses to the points raised here. I am a little perplexed by the answer she gave on operational need, and her dismissing the argument for having an upper limit to the panel. It is not a party-political point. I said earlier that I was perhaps most perplexed by this change from the previous Bill to the current iteration. This is not a partisan point; there must have been some further thinking by the Bill team that worked on both versions, but I am confused as to what operational needs might mean that a panel of 20 could not do it. I will take that away and reflect on it and, if she has anything further to say, I am sure that in one of the meetings we have or in a future letter she can set it out.

On the salary point, I take what the Minister says about not carving it in stone and being limited to inflation, but there are other ways around it, such as pegging it to an equivalent salary in an equivalent profession. There might be ways around doing it so that there is flexibility for salaries to increase as inflation demands without them spiralling in a way that could undermine the work of the panel. In dismissing all these amendments as a group, we could end up in a situation with a potentially infinite number of panel members being paid a potentially infinite sum of money, so we are keen to probe where the limits of good sense are. We might come back to this issue with a bit of further thought, but in the meantime I am grateful and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 42 withdrawn.

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[Lord Moynihan of Chelsea (Con)]

I would almost have concluded in that space of time.

Once the method for determining the levy is agreed and the amounts are fixed, most surely the regulator should be prevented from spending any more than that. I thank noble Lords for their attention.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Mann, is right that we have had extensive discussion on the issue of cost, but if there has been lengthy dialogue on this point then it is because the answers have not been forthcoming in the way that the Committee has wanted.

I am particularly grateful to my noble friend Lord Hayward, who is doing an invaluable service not just for this Committee but for the smaller clubs on whose behalf he has spoken this evening, and in the way that he has gone through the impact assessment to try to get to the bottom of the cost implications for them in particular. I am glad that he will continue to keep at this important point, and I hope he gets some better and more detailed answers from the Minister as he does so.

My noble friend mentioned a letter that the Minister had sent him. Again, she has been kind in responding in writing to individual points that noble Lords have raised, but I ask her to share those letters with the whole Committee when the team sends them through. I think they are coming through to the individual noble Lords who have raised those points but they are not always being shared, and it would be a benefit to the whole Committee if we could all see those letters when they come. However, I am grateful to her, as I know those noble Lords are, for the speed with which she is responding in writing to the points that they have raised.

I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Jackson of Peterborough and Lord Markham for tabling their amendments in this very important group, which concerns the state funding of the regulator. That is a big issue that is worthy of debate, and I support the way that they have drafted them. I put my name to my noble friend Lord Markham’s Amendments 171 and 253, but I am happy to associate myself with my noble friend Lord Jackson of Peterborough’s Amendment 50 as well, which was the one that began this group.

My noble friend’s amendment seeks to strip away the broad powers that could be granted to the Secretary of State to provide financial assistance to the independent football regulator as she sees fit, subject to conditions deemed appropriate by her. Amendment 50 from my noble friend is an important amendment in seeking to safeguard the integrity and independence of the independent football regulator. We would like to think that one of the core purposes of the new regulator is to serve as a neutral body overseeing the governance and financial management of football clubs in this country. By granting the Secretary of State the power to provide it with financial assistance, there is a real and present risk that the independent football regulator’s independence could be compromised.

As with any independent regulator, it is crucial that the independent football regulator operates free from any external pressures, particularly from the Government. The role of the regulator should be to assess the game on its own merits without any concern about political influence or the priorities of the Government of the day. If we were to allow the Government to fund the regulator, we would be introducing the potential for at least the appearance of government influence over the regulator’s work and its activities.

Even if that influence were not overt or immediate, the mere existence of government funding could lead to the perception, and possibly the reality, that the regulator would become beholden to future Governments. That is a danger we must seek to avoid, as it would erode the public’s trust in the new regulator, undermine its effectiveness and hamper its impartiality. The Government have rightly made much of the changes they have made to the Bill in order to guarantee the independence of the regulator in the eyes of international bodies that have paid attention to the Bill, so I am sure that is something they want to avoid in this instance as well.

I hope the Minister will agree that the provision as it stands is concerning in the way that it gives the Government the power to impose conditions on how the regulator uses its funds. The consequences of that are worth considering. The Government could impose restrictions or directives on the work of the regulator, such as mandating certain areas of focus or influencing the scope of its investigations. It could lead to the independent football regulator neglecting crucial issues or, even worse, aligning its work with the agenda of the Government of the day. That sort of shift would diminish the regulator’s ability to act in the best interests of football clubs, players, fans and the broader football ecosystem which the Government and all of us are mindful of protecting.

The existence of that sort of conditional funding could set a dangerous precedent for other regulatory bodies. If government assistance became contingent on adhering to political agendas or priorities, then the independence of other regulatory bodies could be called into question, further eroding public trust in oversight.

I would like also to support my noble friend Lord Markham’s amendments in this group, Amendments 171 and 253. Amendment 171 restricts discretionary licence conditions to include only “internal financial controls”. In Clause 22, the Government allow discretionary licence conditions to relate to “internal controls”. It is important that, in a Bill such as this, the Government recognise the details of the Bill and make clear that the provision refers to financial controls as opposed to solely internal ones.

As my noble friend set out, “internal controls” is broad and open to wide interpretation. Without his amendment, the regulator could potentially impose conditions that extend beyond the presumably intended focus on financial oversight. That surely creates a risk of the sort of regulatory overreach that the Committee has been very concerned about, whereby the regulator might intervene or interfere in areas unrelated to the core objectives of this Bill, such as operational decisions or non-financial activities within football clubs.

If we were to insert “financial” as my noble friend suggests, we would ensure that the discretionary licence conditions relating to internal controls are focused exclusively on financial governance. This refinement would make the regulator’s powers more precise, ensuring that its interventions are effective, proportionate and fully aligned with its mandate to oversee the financial health of football clubs. We have heard, repeatedly and rightly, that the financial sustainability of English football is what the Government are most concerned about and what has led to the Bill that is before the Committee.

The non-financial resources threshold requirement as outlined in the Bill is designed to ensure that clubs have adequate resources, financial and otherwise, to operate sustainably, but the specific mention of internal controls as part of this framework needs to be carefully defined to prevent unintended consequences. Without this amendment, the regulator could use its powers to impose conditions on internal controls that have little or no connection to financial matters. That could include operational areas such as staff management, logistical decisions or club culture, none of which falls under the regulator’s core responsibility to ensure financial sustainability.

By explicitly tying internal controls to financial matters, my noble friend’s amendment reinforces the Bill’s focus on financial governance, while respecting the operational independence of football clubs. They are of course complex organisations operating in—

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I have bit my tongue for the last hour as I have watched the charade from the Benches opposite, all using up their entire allocation while interrupting each other, repeating themselves and slapping each other on the back. This is meant to be a debate. I raise it when the noble Lord is standing up not because I disagree with the fact that they are serious about what they are arguing. But had Mr Sunak waited until November and not called his election in July, the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, would have been here with the same Bill in front of him, other than the issues that we heard have been changed so far—not the issues that we have been discussing for the last two hours or so. They would have been exactly the same. He would have been defending that Bill and now there is confected displeasure, if not outrage, with the way that the Bill is. Is that not hypocrisy?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I am happy to use the time before the Committee to return to this issue but, as my noble friends behind me have said repeatedly, and as I have agreed to each time they have, I know that they would have been raising these points with me had I been at the Dispatch Box opposite. I know that because they were already raising them with me when I had the privilege of being the Minister, and I would be in the position of seeking to persuade them of the merits of the Bill. But I have also been clear, from Second Reading and all the way through, that we want to see this regulator established. We want to see it doing its work and doing so effectively, but we also see before us a Bill that is different, because of the election that was called and the result that happened.

We are interrogating particularly closely the changes that the Government have made to the Bill, of which there are many, and we have more concerns on these Benches, from my colleagues behind me, than we did before the election about the way we do it. As I have said before, the result of the election also puts us in a position on this side of the House to fulfil the duty that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Twycross and Lady Blake, dutifully fulfilled before the election: of making sure that government legislation is properly scrutinised. I make no apology for the fact that—

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I have never filibustered a Bill to which my party had committed in a manifesto and to which all parties had committed. While the noble Lord is correct that I would scrutinise legislation when I was sitting on those Benches, I have never sought to filibuster a Bill to which my party had committed and which my party had laid before Parliament, intending to filibuster it to the point of getting us stuck in treacle.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I much regret the tone that the noble Baroness has adopted and what she says. That is not what we are doing. I sat here and bit my tongue, like the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, when I saw the Government Chief Whip asking one of his Back-Benchers not to move an amendment in order to try to proceed.

One of the great strengths of this House is the way in which we go through Bills in detail. We unearth issues, as we did in the debate on the group that we started today’s debate in Committee with. Neither I, as the prospective Minister in this House for the Bill in the last Parliament, nor the Minister opposite me was aware of the issues about hybridity until we got into the weeds of the Bill as we have in this Committee. That is the strength of the work of this House. I do not call that filibustering; I call it legislative scrutiny and, as we look at the workings of this House and the way it does that, we should do that with great pride.

I do not want to be distracted from the matter at hand by points that have been raised opposite. I want to address the amendments in this group so that we can carry out that duty. I associate myself with the amendments that my noble friends have tabled. I was speaking about my noble friend Lord Markham’s Amendment 171, and I agree with it.