Football Governance Bill [HL]

Lord Jackson of Peterborough Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 4th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I understand the point that both the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, are making, but I am always hesitant to say that something “must” happen. I speak here as someone who spent many years as a personnel/human resources director, acting as the final stage of appeal in disciplinary matters. As the noble Lord implied, I know that there is a debate in legal fields, because nowadays lawyers generally do not like being bound by something that tells them that they “must” act in a certain way.

It does not seem to be appropriate to insert “must”. The noble Baroness said that there would be a presumption—and I think so too. As the noble Lord said, these are very serious offences, but until one is confronted by a set of circumstances, I hesitate to bind anybody to a certain decision. There may be special circumstances where one is found guilty of only one of the categories and circumstances, so I am not convinced that “must” should be inserted in place of “may”.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I want partly to echo what my noble friend Lord Hayward said. Given that the individuals concerned will be non-executive directors of a de facto non-departmental public body, they would be covered by the existing code of conduct for non-departmental public bodies, which I think dates from June 2019. It may have been updated by the previous Government; I do not think that the current Government have looked at it. Equally, they are governed by the Nolan principles, with which we are all very familiar—I am as familiar as anyone else, having been a special adviser and currently being a non-executive director of two non-departmental public bodies.

My point is about the restrictive nature of this wording. This is quite an unusual situation, where the individuals responsible for bringing disciplinary issues to the attention of the appropriate authorities in the independent football regulator will have no leeway whatever under this legislation. If it passes the threshold of criminal activity in civil law, legal representatives—the judiciary, magistrates and others—would have no leeway on this. Therefore, you would circumscribe the existing internal procedures.

Those of us who have a role in non-departmental public bodies know that there is a proper process. You would have a verbal warning. I also have a master’s degree in human resource management and have been an HR manager in my time—there are almost as many of us in this place as there are lawyers.

[A noble Lord]

No.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

Okay, maybe not. My point is that employment lawyers are very wary about something as definitive as this, which involves disciplinary procedures. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, made a very valid and fair point that, at the very least, we need to know the potential scenarios and circumstances that may arise. That would allow us, without any concern, to accept this in the Bill. At the moment, it is overly restrictive, and it could give rise to unfairness and onerous intervention directly by Ministers. On that basis, at the very least, we need to have more information about this before Report. Like my noble friend Lord Hayward, I feel deeply uncomfortable about having such prescriptive wording in primary legislation.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the thought that noble Lords have given to the amendments in this group and to the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, for tabling them so that we can consider them. As the noble Lord, Lord Addington, rightly said, one of the first things that people do when they receive a new government Bill is to go through it and look for the “mays” and the “musts” and consider why they have been put there and what the counterargument would be if the other word were used.

I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Hayward and Lord Jackson of Peterborough, who have brought their professional and personal backgrounds and their qualifications to the scrutiny of this. Like them, I think that we must be careful of being too prescriptive here and of limiting the role of the professionals we are appointing, particularly as this is an independent regulator. We want it to act independently and have a bit of professional discretion. However, the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, have an important point that motivated them to bring the amendments, which would limit the discretionary ability of both the independent football regulator and its chief executive officer in cases of misconduct or where an individual is not able to perform his or her duties, whether they are a non-executive director, an executive director or a member of the expert panel.

Clearly, if this new regulator is to enjoy the support of fans and the businesses and clubs that it regulates, it must uphold and be seen to be upholding the very highest standards. It is good to pose the question of whether this discretionary power should be written in the Bill as it is. The discretionary power as written would allow the independent regulator the ability to keep an individual in place, even in cases where he or she is guilty of misconduct, has a conflict of interest, has failed to provide appropriate information to the chief executive or is unfit, unwilling or unable to carry out his or her functions. That is quite a serious list of reasons, so I can see why the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, have posed this question to the Committee. While I share some of the scepticism that my noble friends have set out, I am more sympathetic than might be expected.

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[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to support the three amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Parkinson.

On Amendment 45, it is very important that we have Chinese walls around media interests and that we preclude, if possible, any potential conflict of interest. We are not talking about a corner shop; we are talking about very serious big business and huge amounts of money for broadcasting rights. The information that will be contained within this regulator and the expert panel is phenomenally important in terms of its commercial confidentiality. Therefore, it is appropriate to put in the Bill a protocol which precludes the possibility of any interference from those who have a vested interest in media, and particularly in the workings of the expert panel.

We can look at models across the world whereby you have to keep secret from many people confidential information that is market-sensitive and may affect stock and share prices. Some of the information in the United States’ Securities and Exchange Commission would fall into that category. This is not quite as lucrative, but it is very big business. Therefore, we need to protect individual clubs that do not have economic heft, and bigger clubs that may be affected by a leak of information or inappropriate use of information from the expert panel.

Amendment 47 strikes a balance on the ability to pay an expert the appropriate amount of money. You want someone who has accumulated knowledge, skills and experience of football on the expert panel, but you do not want to pay them more than, for instance, the Prime Minister is paid. You want to have a set amount, and I think it is appropriate to put it in the Bill, in primary legislation. We know that £91,346 is pretty much two and a half times the average salary. It is a decent amount of money for the services that will be provided by the members of the expert panel.

The amendment I support most strongly is Amendment 49 because, as Judge Louis Brandeis, a Supreme Court judge in 1913, said, daylight is the best disinfectant. That was not said by a British historian, as people think, but by a Supreme Court judge. He was absolutely right about this in all the ways government is conducted. This gets the balance right, because there will be Chinese walls between different functions within the independent football regulator. This is light-touch transparency. It would not divulge the intricate proceedings of the expert panel within the IFR, but it would allow people to make a value judgment on how key decisions had been reached and who had made them. There would be accountability and transparency, as you would know not only who was making a case but the reasons why they did not support a decision. It is right that we would not include detailed minutes of the deliberations of the expert panel, because that would not be in the interest of the game and good governance, but it would be important to understand how decisions were made.

If you put that together as a complementary mechanism, with parliamentary oversight and scrutiny of the independent football regulator as a whole, it is a very useful amendment for making sure there are key checks and balances. It would make sure that certain clubs are not dominating and certain other clubs are not being pushed out, and that everyone has an opportunity to have empirical evidence, data and proper facts put before the expert panel. Ultimately, the panel will be accountable, first, to the IFR, then to Parliament and then to the wider public, including the fans.

I am not saying that the IFR is exactly the same as the Securities and Exchange Commission, but, for those reasons, I think there is a framework here that can be used to make sure that we deliver a decent and effective IFR—but in a fair and equitable way that is open, transparent and, above all, accountable to the taxpayers and people of this country.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly. The middle two of these amendments are effectively a rehash of arguments we have already had—fair enough, so I will not comment on them. But, on the first one —about the numbers on the panel—and Amendment 49, what are the Government’s plans? Do they have any idea what would be a top number, or have they ever given this any consideration? That would be helpful to know—20 would seem to be a reasonable figure.

On the transparency of decision-making, the Government must have some idea, at the very least, about reporting, because it is almost impossible not to have some plan for reporting. If they have a standard or are thinking about one, it would help if we heard it now.

A couple of these amendments are well worth discussing, particularly the one on transparency. But I suspect that the Government have a plan for this—if they do not, they should have—and I look forward to being reassured by the Minister.

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Moved by

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough]

50: Schedule 2, page 94, line 26, leave out paragraph 36
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment removes the Secretary of State’s power to provide the IFR with financial assistance.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, every time I see a new enabling power, I think it cannot get any more egregious, but this is probably the best of the best so far—or the worst of the worst, as my noble friend Lord Hayward says from a sedentary position.

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[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

Perhaps noble Lords would allow me to continue, as it has been quite a long evening. I am getting close to the end of my response to the debate on this group.

I turn to the issue of litigation costs being passed on to all clubs through the levy, as opposed to being taken from financial penalties of non-compliant clubs. It does not seem fair or proportionate, particularly for those clubs that have complied with regulations, for the costs incurred as a result of those that have not complied to be charged to all clubs. For the reasons I have set out, I therefore hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, just to concede the point from my noble friend Lord Hayward, he is absolutely right about the cost being accumulated and passed on to clubs. I did not make it clear that, effectively, the point I was making was that this is an open-ended financial commitment for the IFR, rather than another way of ignoring the cost on the clubs. The point I was making is that it is axiomatic that, if you have a clause that says there is unlimited cash available to a body, it will take advantage of that and there will be carte blanche.

At this late hour, I just leave your Lordships with my observation of Parkinson’s law—not my noble friend Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay but C Northcote Parkinson. He wrote an essay in 1955 for the Economist, saying that

“work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion”—

or, in public services and government, the number of people grows regardless of the work to be done. The point I am making is that if you give an unlimited blank cheque to this body, you are encouraging mission creep and encouraging that body to move into ultra vires areas, not just regarding transitional costs but on a long-term basis in the Bill. For that reason, we need to come back to this and maybe redraft the Bill.

Incidentally, I found the Minister’s answer quite helpful and informative, for which I thank her. I know that it has been a long evening. We have had an eruption from mount Watson—the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie—and all I would say is that it is a constitutional principle that no Parliament can be bound by its predecessor. We are in a new Parliament with a new Government and a new piece of legislation, and we are doing our job of scrutiny and oversight. With that in mind, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 50 withdrawn.