Mental Health Bill [HL]

Lord Meston Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 31st March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 34; I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for adding her name to it. I am grateful too to the Minister for beginning, by way of the government amendments, to ensure that the Mental Health Bill does not conflict with orders of the family court under the Children Act.

Amendment 34 would ensure that the AMHP—approved mental health professional—appointing the nominated person for a child who lacks competence must appoint either the special guardian, when the family court has ordered one, or the parent with whom the child lives under a child arrangements order. His Majesty’s Government’s amendment reflects the current position under Section 37 of the Mental Health Act, and this amendment merely reflects the current position under Section 38. Under the Bill, however, the nearest relative becomes the nominated person and moves from a “must” in the Mental Health Act to a “should” in a code of practice.

According to the Government’s policy paper, His Majesty’s Government wished to give the AMHP the discretion to appoint someone other than that special guardian or the parent with whom the court has ordered that the child resides. Both those court orders affect parental responsibility. A special guardian takes all effective day-to-day decisions for the child and, according to the Children Act 1989, parents are left only with consent to a change of name or if the child is to leave the jurisdiction.

A kinship carer or foster carer is given parental responsibility by way of a court order after a report that has to be produced by the local authority to the court. Under a child arrangements order, the matter of who the child lives with or sees is determined, again, by a court order. A matter that is usually part of parental responsibility decided between the parents is now the subject of a court order. Breaching that order is, in fact, contempt of court—or a breach of a court order, as is normally said.

Many of these admissions of sick children who have no capacity are in the evenings or at weekends. That is what I was informed last Thursday by Dominic Marley of the AMHP Leads Network, whose clear view is that it does not want to be foisted with the discretion that His Majesty’s Government offer them. Why? It is because, quite simply, AMHPs are not equipped, unlike the family courts, to assess that there is now no risk of harm to a child, or to appoint someone other than the special guardian or the parent with whom the child resides.

How can AMHPs assess, at 10 pm on a Saturday night, that the daily life of a child is no longer what was outlined in the special guardianship order, or if the child now lives with that parent without a problem, even though that parent may have a history of not being able to care for them due to illness, or a history of violence, but has now recovered or reformed sufficiently? How can AMHPs assess that the parent who was ordered not to have contact after a week-long trial of the evidence in the family court is, in fact, safe to have contact with the child as the nominated person? AMHPs are simply not equipped to delve into complex family issues that have already been determined by the family court—nor, when they are trying to do a mental health assessment of a sick child, do they want to be distracted by this.

The remedy, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, outlined, is to enable the reformed parent in either of those cases to go to the county court under the nominated persons process, which, indeed, often hears cases within 24 hours. There is, of course, also the remedy to go back to the family court, but that would take longer. It is for that court to assess, we hope with a family judge, what the position is and whether that parent is now safe to be involved in the child’s life as the nominated person. It is unfair to put that responsibility on AMHPs, who see only a small number of Children Act cases each year. Also, as these cases are not straightforward—by definition, they have been subject to an order in the family court—AMHPs would almost certainly need His Majesty’s Government to provide out-of-hours specialist legal advice across England and Wales to help them do this. That matter would, obviously, be open to litigation.

AMHPs and the staff of a unit should not have this responsibility or discretion. What if a father who has a no contact order is given access as the nominated person and harms the child? Even if that does not happen, I cannot help wondering, can the mother go to the family court and say that the dad is in breach of the no contact order or in contempt of court by seeing the child as the nominated person? And would the dad defend that breach and say, “I need to call the AMHP to the family court”? This seems to be getting rather expensive and complicated. Family court orders should be respected, so who the AMHP must appoint as the nominated person should again be on the face of the Bill. Most importantly, this would eradicate the risk of harm to a child from a parent, who has been found by a court to be a risk to their child, getting contact with them, or getting access as the nominated person until another court determines otherwise. Court orders are amended by court orders, not AMHPs.

After eight years of looking at the Mental Health Act to reform it, we are now at Report stage and there are still significant conflicts between this Bill and the Children Act. I am left wondering why. Sadly, despite the considerable engagement that other noble Lords have mentioned by the Minister, which I know is appreciated, as of last Thursday, His Majesty’s Government have not met with the lead AMHP network that I have outlined, which represents over 90% of local authorities in England and Wales and has been in existence for over 20 years. The network is not aware of any other professional network being in existence. It was promised by the last Government that, before a Bill was produced to Parliament, it would be met with. As of last Thursday, His Majesty’s Government have also not consulted with the British Association of Social Workers, which has a special interest group of AMHPs. Why not? Will the Minister please outline precisely whether any AMHPs have been met with and, if so, tell us who are they are and make them known? The network I have spoken to is very concerned about this discretion.

The Minister has immunity while being a servant of the Crown; AMHPs and the staff of a secure mental health unit do not. All the AMHPs are asking for is what is indeed reflected in Whitehall. The DHSE has responsibility for the Mental Health Act and DfE for the Children Act. This is not their expertise. I do hope I will not be attaching this Hansard to a letter to a coroner, a CQC inquiry or any other inquiry if, God forbid, a child is harmed or killed in a secure unit by a parent.

Governing is about deciding. Without Amendment 34, His Majesty’s Government have, in my view, decided to take an unnecessary risk with the safety of some of our sickest children. As noble Lords may be aware from how I have outlined this speech, I intend to divide the House if necessary—but I hope the Minister will concede the point.

[Lord Meston (CB)]

My Lords, I would like to support both the amendments of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the amendment just spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge. It seems to me that, in the potentially complex and fluctuating family situations with which mental health professionals may find themselves having to deal, it is absolutely fundamental that they identify and consult those who have parental responsibility. It would be quite wrong, even in a hasty or urgent situation, for such people to be marginalised.

So far as the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, is concerned, I likewise entirely agree that the practical realities of operative family court orders, which may or may not be relevant, will certainly need to be understood and properly looked at before any urgent decisions are made. They will also need to be fully considered later when more measured decisions have to be made. For that reason, I would certainly wish to support her amendment.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I shall comment on this important group of amendments. I have real sympathy with the amendments that have been tabled. I join others in thanking the Minister for the helpful and constructive conversations that we have had since Committee in a number of areas, including this one.

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[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I will be brief, bearing in mind the time. I have tabled these amendments again on Report, regarding the appropriate tribunal to hear the nominated person’s claims. I am very appreciative of the information given earlier to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, that parents would be able to go to the tribunal. I am also very grateful for the letter that the Minister wrote to me.

The only point on which I wish to have clarification is that there is a difference between the Mental Health Act tribunal and the county court in relation to funding. A parent who goes to the county court will be subject to means testing for Legal Services Commission funding. That is not the case for the Mental Health Act tribunal. So, bearing in mind the importance of the county court to parents, will the Minister outline whether there are any proposals to enable parents to access Legal Services Commission funding?

[Lord Meston (CB)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for bringing this point up again. I mentioned it in Committee. The reference to the county court, currently in Schedule 2 to the Bill, is the only place in this jurisdiction where the county court is given anything to do. It seems to me now to be an anomaly and an anachronism. It is simply carrying forward the use of the county court from the 1959 Act and the 1983 Act, which provided for that court to deal with applications to displace nearest relatives.

I do not believe that, if the mental health legislation was now being started afresh, it would refer to the county courts. The county court is, in any event, now greatly overburdened, but that is not the only reason to replace it. A mental health tribunal, or indeed the Court of Protection, would be better equipped to deal with these cases, having specialist expertise and judiciary.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I support this amendment and, in particular, what the noble Lord, Lord Meston, has said. He has considerable experience of the county court, which I do not have, excepting when I used to appear before it.

What concerns me is that, if a case is sent to the county court, to a judge who is not a family judge, there will be considerable difficulties for that judge. I support the idea that it should be either the mental health tribunal or—as I would prefer, and as the noble Lord, Lord Meston, has suggested—the Court of Protection. The judges of the Court of Protection are judges of the High Court, Family Division, of which I was president. That would be the right court. If it is said by the Government that they are not prepared to move on this issue, and I suspect they might not be, could they at least put in the court code of practice that, if it is sent to the county court, it will be dealt with by a family judge in the county court? The county court sits also as a family court. That would at least ameliorate the situation.

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Meston, does indeed know what is going on—I agree. I cannot answer the noble and learned Baroness’s question directly, but I would be pleased to look into that point in order to do so. Maybe the noble Lord could help me.

[Lord Meston (CB)]

Perhaps I can relieve the Minister. I can tell her who has to deal with it: it is whoever is available at the time, and these applications tend to come in really quite urgently.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord.