Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill

Lord McColl of Dulwich Excerpts

Friday 13th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taverne (LD)]

My Lords, I want to put the argument in a wider context for a moment. The reason why theocratic states are not democratic is because they have no separation of church and state. The reason why the success of the Muslim Brotherhood led to suppression of democracy is because it did not separate church and state. In the progress of history, the progress of democracy has been linked by the separation of church and state. In Britain, this is not complete but there is a formal continued existence of the role of the Church of England, which is an anomaly. I say that with great respect to the admirable work done by the Bishops in this House, who are very progressive and enlightened in their views. The intrusion of religion into political debate should, as far as possible, be avoided.

This Bill is particularly anomalous at a time when the Church of England is no longer the majority religion. Most people in this country do not go to church and have to deal with a multiplicity of faiths. The Bill is a step in the wrong direction. The influence of politics and religion should be kept apart through the separation of church and state, and the Bill does not do so.

[Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con)]

My Lords, many of your Lordships will remember the late Lord Orr-Ewing. He had a relative in the West Country who was a consultant at the local hospital. He was chairman of its medical executive committee and chairman of the local parish council at the same time. He got a bit tired towards the end of his time and forgot where he was, just for the moment. When opening a meeting of the medical executive committee he thought he was in the parish council meeting, and said: “Well, gentlemen, it is time to open the meeting. Shall I do so with a word of prayer?”. The consultants were all rather surprised at this but, to give them their due, they bowed their heads and there was an effective prayer. It turned out to be one of the most peaceful, constructive meetings that they had ever had.

[Baroness Perry of Southwark (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps I may reply briefly to the point that my noble friend Lord Taverne made. It is historically not the case that the progress of democracy has been linked to the separation of church and state. The most egregious examples of the lack of democracy have been where religion or, indeed, its lack has overtaken the state and replaced it. This is what ISIL is trying to do—to replace the state by its religion. The aggressive atheism of the Chinese communist state and the Russian Soviet communist state are two potent examples of how democracy cannot thrive without a decent place for religion within a country.