Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill

Lord Taverne Excerpts

Friday 13th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, like the right reverend Prelate, I also have a declaration to make. I am a Christian—a very fallible Christian—but I find the Prayers at the start of your Lordships’ business extremely helpful in setting the tone and putting everything in context. The only part of the Prayers with which I have a problem is that concerned with setting aside prejudice. As a rather lapsed politician, I balk at that a little. When I served on a local authority, I also found that the prayers set the tone.

What we are seeing in the amendments, which have clearly been helped by the National Secular Society, is something that I do not accept. Many people here attend these Prayers because of the spirit and principles that come from them, even though they may not be believing Christians or indeed part of any other group. I take issue a little with the number of bodies that the noble Lord has included in the Bill—I think we should have a degree of proportionality—but local authorities should certainly be included. We have here in your Lordships’ House a precedent. I am sure that some of those who attended Prayers today do not have a belief but find them helpful in setting the tone for the proceedings which come. But I am confident that even those who were outside and came in later did not feel excluded in any way; nor would those in local authorities or smaller parish councils who stand outside and go in later feel themselves as part of the generality to feel excluded.

It is a part of our tradition that we should cherish. It sets a proper tone and principle. Perhaps we should look again at proportionality, but I—I am sure in common with many Christians and people of other beliefs and non-Christians—find our own service here to be something of value. Perhaps that may be next in line for those who wish to consider excluding from the public space any reference to our Christian traditions. Indeed, I do not find, as my noble friend Lord Cashman said, that Christianity is taking a larger slice, a larger share, of our public space. I find that many Christian traditions are indeed on the defensive. Many Christians are finding it increasingly difficult to express their faith, and there is a multitude of examples of that. Let us return to the status quo ante and recognise the proud traditions—the Christian traditions—of this country, but also embrace new faiths and recognise that many of us find something of immense value here in your Lordships’ House. It is something that those who serve in other councils would find of equal value.

[Lord Taverne (LD)]

My Lords, I want to put the argument in a wider context for a moment. The reason why theocratic states are not democratic is because they have no separation of church and state. The reason why the success of the Muslim Brotherhood led to suppression of democracy is because it did not separate church and state. In the progress of history, the progress of democracy has been linked by the separation of church and state. In Britain, this is not complete but there is a formal continued existence of the role of the Church of England, which is an anomaly. I say that with great respect to the admirable work done by the Bishops in this House, who are very progressive and enlightened in their views. The intrusion of religion into political debate should, as far as possible, be avoided.

This Bill is particularly anomalous at a time when the Church of England is no longer the majority religion. Most people in this country do not go to church and have to deal with a multiplicity of faiths. The Bill is a step in the wrong direction. The influence of politics and religion should be kept apart through the separation of church and state, and the Bill does not do so.

[Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con)]

My Lords, many of your Lordships will remember the late Lord Orr-Ewing. He had a relative in the West Country who was a consultant at the local hospital. He was chairman of its medical executive committee and chairman of the local parish council at the same time. He got a bit tired towards the end of his time and forgot where he was, just for the moment. When opening a meeting of the medical executive committee he thought he was in the parish council meeting, and said: “Well, gentlemen, it is time to open the meeting. Shall I do so with a word of prayer?”. The consultants were all rather surprised at this but, to give them their due, they bowed their heads and there was an effective prayer. It turned out to be one of the most peaceful, constructive meetings that they had ever had.