Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Knight of Weymouth Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Wednesday 4th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, as I have often said in this House, I will accept nothing less than a compromise, but it seems that this Government are refusing to act on the wisdom, knowledge and experience of this House. My heart is broken to think that the Government could be so irresponsible and not see the damage being done to our creative industries. I declare my interests as set out in the register.

I will tell the House a personal story about something that happened to me the other day. I was in the supermarket discussing with my husband which apples to buy, when a woman standing nearby said, “I would recognise that voice anywhere. You’re Floella. I’m one of your ‘Play School’ babies”. I smiled, happily posed for a selfie and gave her my autograph. However, it made me realise that my voice is linked to my character and legacy and is also an asset. This is the perfect example of how many people in my creative industry rely on their voices to earn a living.

The deep concern is that AI models could replicate an actor’s or presenter’s voice and distinctive vocal style, almost perfectly, and use it in an advert or voiceover without their knowledge or permission, without payment, and without care or moral conscience—and in such a cavalier fashion. This is why people in the creative industries are so frightened about the consequences of an AI free-for-all where transparency and copyright law are non-existent.

I once again speak in support of the intrepid noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and stand shoulder to shoulder with her to make sure that we keep fighting to prevent the livelihoods of thousands and thousands of people—their lifeblood—being stolen. Yes, it is a shame that we have to be involved in ping-pong in this way, but I do so because, at the end of the day, I cannot face my friends and colleagues in the creative industries knowing that I did not do the right thing and make a stand. I can now look them in the eye and say, like many other noble Lords across this House, “I stood up for you and the future of your creative industries, and for the benefit of our children’s future, as I have always done”. They will be excluded from being part of the creative industries as we know them, and from forging careers in this exciting, adventurous, creative, highly respected world.

I do not see this as a party-political matter, and, in years to come, we will suffer the consequences of this error of judgment and the mental anguish it has caused. In my 15 years in this House, I have been assured many times by Ministers, “We will make changes later”, only to realise that “later” never comes. So, we are standing up for the creative industries and their fight for survival and fairness—now, not later. I urge all Members of this House to show strength of support, stand together with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and send a clear message to the Government that we are not accepting this on our watch. The creative industries deserve better and must be saved.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)]

My Lords, I have yet to vote with the Government on this issue. We all owe a great debt of gratitude to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for the way in which she has championed the interests of the creative sector against the daylight robbery of its rights by big tech to train its models. She has given another powerful speech today. But I have decided that today, I will support the Government, to the disappointment of her and my friends alongside me, for three reasons. First, I accept we are not there yet, but we are perilously close to losing an important Bill that is needed to secure data adequacy with the European Union, to give coroners access to social media companies’ data, and to secure the offences relating to deepfake porn championed by the noble Baroness, Lady Owen.

Secondly, constitutionally, it is now time to listen to the elected House on a Bill that has been through the Commons three times and this House twice, more or less, and was a manifesto commitment. Thirdly, we now have some modest movement from the Government in their amendment, reflecting more urgency and a commitment to comprehensively dealing with the issues of AI and copyright together.

This issue has been appallingly dealt with by the Government. I am not referring to my noble friend the Minister, because some things are out of her hands; but I hope that, as a result of ping-pong, the Government now understand this House better, that they understand the passion and power of the creative sector better, and that they deliver on their promises to legislate comprehensively on the issues of AI and copyright as quickly as possible, and based on the need for transparency. On that, I will work with anybody else to hold their feet to the fire.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Knight, misses one or two points. My noble friend Lady Kidron has made it clear that this is her last stand, so nobody is suggesting that noble Lords are going to try to defeat this Bill. Indeed, I do not think any of us would want to do that.

The Government have said that there is no change to copyright law—I think that is correct—and that copyright law will be upheld. So far, so good. But if we cannot see how copyright is being transgressed, how can we enforce the law? How can we take people to court to get back our royalties? I should mention my interests as listed in the register. In order, it would seem, to appease the American big tech companies and quite possibly President Trump himself, what we have actually done is locked the front door of our creative mansion but left the back door wide open. That is why, in a nutshell, the creative industries are up in arms. It is why I will support the noble Baroness, should she decide it wise to seek the opinion of the House, and I will support her on behalf of all those writers, artists and musicians who stand to lose out through this lack of transparency.

I know many composers, writers, painters and film-makers who earn a pittance from copyright—£2, £3, £50, £100. But however small it is, it is an acknowledgement that they created something, and that that intellectual property belongs to them and should be rewarded.