Lord Judd
Main Page: Lord Judd (Labour - Life peer)“Reduction of landfilling of organic waste
The Secretary of State must, as soon as reasonably practicable, set out a plan and timeframe for the reduction and eventual elimination of landfilling of organic waste in order to make it available for 100% renewable energy generation and other appropriate uses consistent with the waste hierarchy as defined in The Waste (England and Wales) Regulations 2011.”
Lord Judd (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 76 would insert a brief new clause after Clause 58. I declare an interest in that I am a member, supporter and honorary officer of a number of environmental and related NGOs working in this sphere. There is a considerable and significant consensus among a growing number of organisations that the approach put forward in the amendment is overdue. Prominent among those organisations is the Green Alliance—which really has done a great deal of important research—to which I personally am very grateful. I thank it for having very much prompted me to put forward the amendment. However, it is not just the Green Alliance. For example, the Committee on Climate Change noted in its recent report of 26 June that,
“further consideration should be given to banning specific types of biodegradable wastes, such as food waste, from landfill”.
I am glad to see that the noble Lord, Lord Deben, is in his place because nobody knows more about these things than he does. I was interested to be reminded that on 12 February this year he asked in this House whether it was not time that we banned this material—food waste—from landfill. As I recall, he argued that it was seriously dangerous to create methane. Banning it would enable us to insist upon wider recycling of what is wasted. Commenting on WRAP research into the feasibility of landfill bans, Liz Goodwin, chief executive officer, said:
“This piece of research shows that we could make some significant financial and environmental savings if we stopped sending certain types of rubbish to landfill”.
Tamar Energy and the PDM Group, both large AD investors, have called for food waste landfill bans. The Renewable Energy Association has also produced highly relevant supporting arguments.
During the first day on Report last Monday, proponents of the decarbonisation target amendment, backed by an impressive coalition of businesses, investors and civil society groups, powerfully argued that such a target would provide businesses with the certainty that they needed to invest. The target in their view would have lowered the cost of borrowing, the benefits of which would have filtered to consumers in the form of lower energy bills. A speedier move from a carbon-based energy system, which is becoming progressively more expensive, to a low-carbon system with high investment in energy efficiency would have guaranteed comparatively lower energy prices in the long term. In addition, the certainty of a target would have encouraged development of low-carbon supply chains and associated jobs in the UK.
Like the decarbonisation target amendment, this amendment would provide investors with greater certainty so that we can end the dumping of a substantial renewable energy source in the form of organic waste into landfill. This will benefit business and consumers, and help the UK to meet carbon and renewable energy targets. There are four key benefits. First, it will help the UK meet its renewable energy and climate change targets. Waste emissions, mostly from organic waste in landfill, represent about 3% of total UK emissions. Secondly, it would reduce the amount of waste going to landfill. As recently as 2009, the UK was still land-filling nearly 21 million tonnes of organic waste. Thirdly, the diversion of food waste from landfill would drive at least £693 million of feedstock to anaerobic digestion each year. Diverting this food waste from landfill would also save over £500 million in disposal costs. This is well demonstrated in valuable research by the Green Alliance. Fourthly, it would reduce risk. AD plants are not being built because of concerns about feedstock. Of Tamar Energy’s 40 proposed AD plants, 25 are at risk due to difficulties in sourcing food waste. Investment in these plants, which is already secured, represents the single largest clean-tech capital deal of 2013.
It was claimed in Committee that AD does not require targets because these would risk the creation of new compliance burdens for business and local authorities. However, the amendment would offer certainty to business. For example, as I have just outlined, Tamar Energy recently called for a ban on food waste to landfill. Feedstock risk is currently a major contributor to financing problems for the AD industry: banks are simply not lending to incineration plants without guaranteed feedstock arrangements with local authorities. It was recently reported that 25 of Tamar Energy’s 40 proposed AD plants are at risk due to difficulties in sourcing food waste, and that a landfill ban and separate food waste collections would address this problem. Indeed, PDM Group also supports a landfill ban for food waste as this would underpin investment in AD plants.
What is more, it is worth noting that the lack of concern in official quarters about feedstock risk for anaerobic digestion contrasts poorly with the strong concern about feedstock risk for conventional gas generation. In July 2012, the Chancellor announced £500 million in tax breaks for new oil and gas field development to give,
“investors the long-term certainty needed to make decisions on investment in … gas”.
In 2013, he halved the tax rate for onshore gas production. This contrast surely needs to be addressed. If the amendment does nothing else, it enables us to address it.
The Earl of Erroll (CB)
My Lords, I am flailing around slightly but I want to make a different point. The noble Lord’s point is well taken: there is no point in food waste unnecessarily going to landfill. It can also be composted in the right mixture with other green waste, and so on. That is an alternative, because it then makes a very good soil improver. The only problem is that the regulations around the mobile plant SR2010 No. 4 permits that you have to get can hold things up. They can be quite difficult to get and there is sometimes quite a backlog. The other thing is that you do not really know how much they are going to allow you to put on. Instead of trusting your agronomist to get your fertiliser recommendations right, the Environment Agency insists on trying to do it some time ahead. I am not quite sure why.
The Environment Agency seems to think that farmers are trying to poison their soil. A sensible farmer is not trying to poison their soil. They will have a proper agronomist giving recommendations. That would be much easier to manage, because you have to start putting the waste onto heaps during the year. You cannot suddenly get, in our case, 12,000 tonnes out of a composting operation in one month. You can only put it on in that gap when you are harvesting, before you cultivate the next year. You are expected to incorporate it within a day, because if anyone complains about the smell they come down on you like a ton of bricks—even though there can be other farmers spreading slurry and all sorts of manures around the place, so the smell could easily be coming from them.
At the moment, those who are trying to avoid food waste going to landfill are sometimes having a difficult time. It might be nice if the Environment Agency looked slightly more kindly on it at times. So far we have not had any real problem, but I can see it building up. Last year we suddenly had the amount that we could put on reduced, which caused a certain amount of chaos to our planning because we buy fertiliser a long time in advance, and so need predictability. It would be far better to leave it to our agronomist.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for prompting further debate on the setting of targets for the landfilling of waste. Amendment 76 is designed to require the Secretary of State to set out a plan and timeframe, as soon as is practicable, for reducing and eventually eliminating the landfilling of organic waste. It would make it available for renewable energy generation and other appropriate uses, consistent with the waste hierarchy as defined in the Waste (England and Wales) Regulations 2011.
The Government support the minimisation of organic waste going into landfill and are sympathetic to the aims of this amendment. When we debated this matter in Committee, I outlined the considerable progress made in minimising organic waste entering landfill by the reduction of food waste and the increase in the number of anaerobic digesters generating energy from food waste. We very much agree with the points that the noble Lord made during that debate about the value of avoiding emissions of greenhouse gases from landfill. Preventing food waste is the most effective approach in carbon-saving terms: compared to landfilling, each tonne of food waste prevented means 4.2 tonnes of CO2-equivalent emissions are avoided.
We have worked very successfully with industry to reduce supply chain food and packaging waste by nearly 10% over the past three years, while the Waste and Resources Action Programme’s “Love Food Hate Waste” campaign helps consumers to make informed choices on reducing food waste. Household food waste is down by 13% since 2006, and we expect a 20% reduction to be achieved during the three phases of the Courtauld commitment that all the major supermarkets have signed up to. These results show that the voluntary approach can deliver real reductions in waste while allowing businesses to be more efficient and competitive. We want to build on this work with businesses rather than impose targets or restrictions. When food waste cannot be avoided, anaerobic digestion is currently the best option that we have, because it produces renewable energy and a valuable fertiliser. Over the years, we have provided a range of support through WRAP for anaerobic digestion, including £11 million in grant funding.
The substantial increase in the number of anaerobic digesters generating energy from waste continues. We now have more than 100 megawatts of capacity for waste and, together with the long-standing use of anaerobic digestion in the sewage treatment sector, this gives us capacity to generate 1.5 terawatt hours annually. In the Government’s anaerobic digestion strategy to tackle barriers to anaerobic digestion, we estimated that there was a potential to generate 3 terawatt hours to 5 terawatt hours of electricity by 2020. With another 300 megawatts of capacity consented or being built, the industry is well on its way to delivering that potential.
Most of the actions in our anaerobic digestion strategy are now complete. The Government published a second progress report in August and it is now for industry to use the outputs to ensure that the barriers they identified are removed. I hope the noble Lord will be reassured that we can continue to reduce organic waste entering landfill by encouraging food waste prevention and supporting a growing anaerobic digestion industry without introducing further targets to those set out in the EU landfill directive. I also add that current evidence suggests that further statutory targets would have an impact on businesses and local authorities in compliance and monitoring, risking additional cost burdens on business. It is likely that these additional cost burdens faced by industry and local authorities would be passed on to the consumer, which means that consumers could risk facing higher costs if additional statutory landfill bans were introduced.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked about reporting on a reduction of landfill. Landfill tax is the main form of reducing organic waste from landfill. Defra is encouraging food waste prevention and encouraging the use of anaerobic digestion; the Environment Agency monitors emissions under the industrial emissions directive. Under the permitting regulations, the Environment Agency also monitors the air quality.
We are mindful of the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, around this sector, but I hope that I have been able to satisfy the noble Lord that the actions that we are taking and our encouragement of industries such as anaerobic digestive generators to make use of waste will help him to decide to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Judd
I thank those who have participated in this short debate. I particularly thank my noble friend on the Front Bench for his rather double-edged intervention. I do not doubt his good will, but I have anxieties about his complacency—and I hope that he forgives me for putting it so bluntly. I am afraid that goes for the Minister as well.
What we have not heard from either Front Bench is any kind of response to what is already in evidence: that those who are responsible for developing the industry in this sphere are already running into difficulty. It is all right coming here and telling us, “We have got a trend and it is going well”; the warning signals are there: they are not attracting the money they should be attracting for investment. The reason for this is uncertainty over key supplies. Surely we do not wait until the whole thing collapses. That is not a very sensible approach to political management. If the warning signs are there, this is the time to take action. I sometimes find it quite extraordinary. In quite a number of countries in Europe it is absolutely taken for granted that this is the way to approach it; for example, Flanders, the Netherlands, Germany, Austria and Sweden all have compulsory arrangements in this area.
We say that we want to ensure that this change takes place and that we are very glad that it has proved itself as something that can develop. We do not, however, want it to dry up. I ask the Minister to go away from this brief exchange—perhaps I might very gently suggest that my Front Bench does the same—and look at what is actually happening now; not the trends in the past, but what is happening now. It is because of that that action is necessary.
I shall, of course, at this stage withdraw the amendment, but I hope that it is not just a matter of the Minister coming and reporting to my noble friend, “Ah, I’m afraid it has all dried up; it is not happening”. It is a matter of looking at it, saying what the warning signs are and taking action. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, I apologise that I was unable to play much of a role in Committee on this important Bill because of a clash with other work here. When one is in a party of one, or one and a quarter at best, it is difficult to spread oneself around. I have a considerable interest in the question of nuclear energy and I am not in the mainstream of my party’s opinion. My party has tended to be anti-nuclear on the basis of fearing consequences if accidents of the sort we have seen in Japan and elsewhere were to happen. I did a degree in physics at Manchester University which contained a large element of nuclear physics; I worked for a time building the Trawsfynydd nuclear power station; and the Wylfa nuclear power station is also within the old county of Gwynedd, my home area. Therefore, I was most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for introducing the amendment in a broad context, bringing in the environment, because the environmental consequence of nuclear decisions is central to the public perception.
We are expecting the go-ahead, in Anglesey, for the Wylfa B station, something that I am very much in support of, as is a majority of opinion within the county of Anglesey. There are, however, many people who have worries about safety. As the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, mentioned, those worries have to be taken on board and have to be central to the thinking of the structures we are dealing with here. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, a moment ago, saying that there is sometimes the danger of going for the extra step of safety at a disproportionate cost. Obviously, there is a risk that has to be taken at some point, but the communities are only happy to support the nuclear industry when they think that that risk is very small indeed, that all steps can be taken to minimise those risks and that structures are being put in place to do that.
In the context of this part of the Bill and this amendment, one aspect of the environmental impact that arises from nuclear energy is the environmental impact associated with decommissioning. The Minister may recall that I raised this question at Question Time not so long ago: it is a matter of some concern. The new generation of nuclear power stations have easier and faster decommissioning built into them—one is very much aware of that. It is not the same decommissioning process as was necessary for the previous generations. One thinks of the Trawsfynydd nuclear power station which stopped generating electricity 20 years ago and is still being decommissioned, with 700 people still working on site on the decommissioning and another three years at least of work for those 700. That is an enormous cost. One accepts that, with luck, the costs of decommissioning will be less when the technological needs of decommissioning have been more appropriately designed into the original design of the nuclear power station, but there are always uncertainties.
The question that I put to the Minister on the back of the amendment, which deals with the environment—and it is an environmental consequence—is what if those who are involved in the construction and running of nuclear power stations and who are charged with the internalising of the costs of decommissioning into the overall cost package were to go bankrupt? What if that company goes to the wall? What happens to the steps needed to ensure safe decommissioning with regard to the impact on the environment if it is not properly handled?
I understand that at the point of negotiating contracts with companies such as Hitachi and the others, the Government clearly want to make sure that the companies that may make profit out of this pay the costs that are consequential on the work they are undertaking. Of course, it is right that this should be so, but there still needs to be some guarantee, at the end of the road, that the communities that are hosting this new generation of nuclear power stations cannot, under any circumstances, be left with a nuclear hulk the cost of decommissioning of which nobody is willing to take on. I believe that assurances along these lines are needed in order to make it easier for those, such as myself, who are in favour of nuclear power, to be able to argue the case. It is a worry and I have not heard how it will be addressed in those unfortunate, unlikely but still possible circumstances that could arise at some date in the future.
Lord Judd
My Lords, after the slight wobble with my Front Bench a moment ago, I am very glad to find myself 300% on board with them. I think that the amendments are absolutely right; I hope that they press them hard and that the Minister will find the opportunity to respond positively.
I always get a bit worried about what is happening with climate change in the sense that I am never quite sure that the principles with which I grew up still apply, but if the prevailing wind in Britain is still south-westerly, I live 12 miles north-east of Sellafield so I obviously take these arguments very seriously indeed. I am in favour of the next generation of nuclear energy: there is no argument about that, and obviously we in Cumbria will play our part in one way or another. That is given, but this is highly dangerous, lethal engineering of which we are speaking and it seems to me that we cannot have anything but the highest standards. I was very glad to find myself sympathising with a great deal of what the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, was saying, but I could not quite buy his total argument that very, very, very safe was perhaps too much. I think that the developments have to be as safe as they can be.
As we go into this new generation of construction we have heard quite explicitly from the Government—it has been repeated tonight—that we have not got the necessary expertise. This is a very hazardous development. I think that we need some very specific, concrete plans from the Government for bringing the preparation of our own engineering capacity up to date and I urge my own colleagues in opposition to take this seriously too. I do not like the prospect of our being dependent upon foreign expertise in the area of safety: I do not think that it is in any way an ideal situation.
The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, made the point about, “What if?”. I do not think that one can ask too many such questions when we are going into this very important new development. The basic issue is that we have an engineering deficit in terms of our own capabilities and we are putting ourselves into the hands of foreign engineers. Everyone will know that I am an internationalist second to none, but it seems to me that we need to be very clear about how we are going to generate the expertise in this country and very fast indeed.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am slightly wary of the amendment including the environment in the duties of the ONR. The only reason for that is that I think that it confuses the issue. My noble friend Lord Jenkin was absolutely right: the environment should be with the Environment Agency and design should be with the ONR. If we give the ONR the environment as well, I think that there will be more confusion than light and that would be an unhappy situation.
The noble Lord, Lord Judd, talked about the importance of having our own people on the safety and security standards. Have we not blown it, from being world leaders to having to rely on overseas firms? Not that I am against that, but to have lost the world lead that we had is one of the great tragedies of the past 50 years. I am particularly sad that the fast breeder reactor at Dounreay, just down the road from my home, is not flourishing but is being decommissioned.
One of the reasons why we lost our world lead is that we did not take public opinion with us. This is a crucial issue and Amendment 78A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is perhaps more relevant in that regard. When the ONR and the Environment Agency look at these plans they have to be able to say that this has the seal of approval under the highest standards and quality that are right for Britain. If that does not happen, we will lose the support of public opinion again. It will be back to not just square one but minus five on the scale. That would be a sadness.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, reminded us that there are different designs. That is a concern and I wish that we would stick to one design in the competition. If you can replicate that design, you are going to lower costs. My noble friend Lord Jenkin referred to my noble friend Lord Ridley’s article of not so long ago in the Times. One of his arguments was that we should have a number of smaller nuclear plants, all identical. You could then set the safety standards right at the beginning, replicate the plants and have in-house expertise. Although I am a great proponent of and believer in competition, there is an argument here for saying that, having reached this stage, we ought to stick with one design and replicate it because that will help lower costs and help us get the relevant expertise into this area. If you have to have one set of expertise for what you are building at Hinckley, another for Anglesey and another for elsewhere, that might stretch us too far. I would therefore welcome anything that my noble friend can say on that.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I take the noble Lord’s concerns very seriously. It may be helpful if he would allow me to write to him in further detail about the decommissioning plans that we have in place. I will try to reassure him that the independents with these funds in place are away from the operators, and we are keen to make sure that the funds are met. However, since I have not reassured him enough, I think it may be helpful to write to him.
My noble friend the Duke of Montrose asked if the ONR will regulate ongoing operations of power stations. The ONR will continue to regulate and monitor installations as they are operating and beyond. It will continue to work closely with the Environment Agency and, of course, the other, separate agencies of the devolved powers to ensure that the effects of nuclear power generation on the environment are monitored and action taken where necessary.
My noble friend Lord Caithness said that we should have a single design for reactors. The Government’s position has always been clear in that we encourage diversity in reactor design but of course, as with all things, they have to meet the highest standards that we expect of them.
Lord Judd
Frankly, I am a little confused, and I wonder whether the Minister could put me right. She said earlier in her response that of course these things were up to the company to perform as required. Of course, this is all happening as a result of a tough political decision by the Government. We cannot walk away, as a nation or a Government, from our ultimate responsibility. What some of us are concerned about is having systems in place that ensure that companies are indeed performing as expected. In this context, we come back to what we were discussing earlier, that we cannot be certain that everything is being done as it should be because we ourselves say that we have not got that expertise. Can the Minister address these issues? There really is a credibility gap.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I recognise that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, talks about the resources and the capabilities that we require going forward. We are mindful of that, and so is the ONR. There are a range of measures that the ONR is already engaged in to replace a depleted number of experts. I reassure the noble Lord that in saying that it is for companies to build and operate does not detract from the ONR’s main business, which is to ensure that reactors meet the highest standards of safety. We are measuring two things together, including the fact we have got the resources and capabilities in place, which the ONR is very aware of, as are the Government.
This is a historical vacuum that we are filling—the ONR is well aware of it—but there are a great deal of measures that the ONR is taking to ensure that we have those ongoing capabilities coming forward. We know, and take seriously, what the noble Lord is asking.
Lord Judd
I really am grateful to the Minister because she is trying very hard to reassure me and I always find myself being seduced when she is at the Dispatch Box with her arguments. However, I hope that she will agree with me that it is an aspiration on our part; as a nation, we have not got the means to be certain that what we are aspiring to, and exhorting people to do, is in fact being done. That is why it is so incredibly urgent to close this engineering expertise gap and to make sure that the credibility is foolproof.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, the noble Lord’s amendments go too far. We are talking about only five non-executive members who are going to be appointed by the Secretary of State. One must have regard to the main purpose of non-executive directors of a board, which is, broadly, to hold the executive to account. I have been a chairman of a board, although only part-time, in a totally different environment, and found the non-executive members of that board extremely useful. They assisted me in holding the executive members of the board to account—not because of their expertise in a particular area in which an executive director would be operating, but because they had wider experience and could look at the activity of the executive in a wider context.
That is obvious in the provision in the Bill for at least one non-executive member to have responsibility for the security aspects of the ONR’s job. I do not know whether this is the Government’s intention but it seems to me that what is wanted is not somebody who is expert in nuclear security, but who has wider experience of the whole of the national security position and can bring that background knowledge and perspective to the particular issues that arise in the nuclear field.
If that is right, it is entirely understandable that the Government should want to see that in the schedule. On the question of safety, however, I do not understand what, exactly, a non-executive member’s role would be. This is essentially a management matter. A non-executive director would want to be sure that the right procedures were being followed, particularly when it is a question of appointing someone who will have some executive responsibility in this. You want somebody with the experience of being able to do it, but to have a specific safety non-executive person would be very difficult. I am not sure where it leaves the professional management. Is it constantly being second-guessed? That is not what you want from a non-executive board. It should not second-guess the management but satisfy itself that the management is approaching the problem in the right way and has made sensible decisions.
To some extent, that is equally true of labour, staff relations and so forth. I would not expect a non-executive director who had come straight from a human resources job to say, “I’m going to tell the human resources director exactly how to do his job”. That is not the way in which non-executive members of the board should be expected to operate.
The amendments mistake the purpose of having non-executive directors. The Bill has the right approach because having someone with a wider experience of national security could be extremely useful, and nuclear security could be looked at in that context. However, I would not want to take it further and I would be very much opposed to the amendments proposed by the noble Lord.
Lord Judd
My Lords, with great respect, I do not follow the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. We are not talking about a chocolate factory or even a motorcar manufacturer: we are talking about highly sophisticated, advanced, cutting-edge science. It has the potential to adversely affect staff and the wider public acutely. It is not either/or; it is a matter of having people with wider experience. The noble Lord is right: that is the purpose of a non-executive director. However, there must be people on the board who know what they are talking about, if they talk about it, when we come to the specific issues of this special, advanced and potentially very dangerous new form of energy generation.
This is not, incidentally, just limited to the nuclear sphere. I remember very vividly many hours toiling home to the north-west finding myself isolated on Preston station in the small hours. Railtrack had built up a great record of property development and all the rest, but it was suddenly realised after Hatfield that it had neglected the very special knowledge about how to run the railways and what that is about. It is not just any industry: it is about having the knowledge and background to ask whether management is taking this or that into account. It is not an either/or.
In the case of the railways, with that awful Hatfield incident, we had reached a stage where virtually nobody knew where the danger spots were on the track across the country. If we take those experiences seriously, it is a matter of getting the right combination of knowledge and expertise. I realise that when you use the word “expertise” you are beginning to go down a questionable road, but there has to be enough real knowledge of the special tasks and hazards, together with the wider experience to which the noble Lord rightly referred.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)
My Lords, I support the amendment, especially subsection (3)(b) dealing with,
“representation of employees in health and safety”.
That is so important. I worked at a power station myself. It was not a nuclear power station, but it was a power station. I was also secretary of the local advisory committee. I therefore have some experience of how essential it is that working people are taken into account regarding management of a plant.
Those advisory committees, incidentally, both at national and local level, were set up under the electricity and gas Acts of, I think, 1949 and 1950. There was a statutory duty to provide opportunities for employees to be consulted, at least, not only on matters of health and safety but on the broader workings of power stations and other installations. Indeed, it is necessary for employees to have those powers because it is helpful to management to ensure that working at ground level is safe. Managers cannot know everything that goes on, but most of the employees do. I support the amendment simply and solely because the question of employee consultation should appear somewhere in the Bill.