Lord Wigley
Main Page: Lord Wigley (Plaid Cymru - Life peer)
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, I apologise that I was unable to play much of a role in Committee on this important Bill because of a clash with other work here. When one is in a party of one, or one and a quarter at best, it is difficult to spread oneself around. I have a considerable interest in the question of nuclear energy and I am not in the mainstream of my party’s opinion. My party has tended to be anti-nuclear on the basis of fearing consequences if accidents of the sort we have seen in Japan and elsewhere were to happen. I did a degree in physics at Manchester University which contained a large element of nuclear physics; I worked for a time building the Trawsfynydd nuclear power station; and the Wylfa nuclear power station is also within the old county of Gwynedd, my home area. Therefore, I was most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for introducing the amendment in a broad context, bringing in the environment, because the environmental consequence of nuclear decisions is central to the public perception.
We are expecting the go-ahead, in Anglesey, for the Wylfa B station, something that I am very much in support of, as is a majority of opinion within the county of Anglesey. There are, however, many people who have worries about safety. As the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, mentioned, those worries have to be taken on board and have to be central to the thinking of the structures we are dealing with here. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, a moment ago, saying that there is sometimes the danger of going for the extra step of safety at a disproportionate cost. Obviously, there is a risk that has to be taken at some point, but the communities are only happy to support the nuclear industry when they think that that risk is very small indeed, that all steps can be taken to minimise those risks and that structures are being put in place to do that.
In the context of this part of the Bill and this amendment, one aspect of the environmental impact that arises from nuclear energy is the environmental impact associated with decommissioning. The Minister may recall that I raised this question at Question Time not so long ago: it is a matter of some concern. The new generation of nuclear power stations have easier and faster decommissioning built into them—one is very much aware of that. It is not the same decommissioning process as was necessary for the previous generations. One thinks of the Trawsfynydd nuclear power station which stopped generating electricity 20 years ago and is still being decommissioned, with 700 people still working on site on the decommissioning and another three years at least of work for those 700. That is an enormous cost. One accepts that, with luck, the costs of decommissioning will be less when the technological needs of decommissioning have been more appropriately designed into the original design of the nuclear power station, but there are always uncertainties.
The question that I put to the Minister on the back of the amendment, which deals with the environment—and it is an environmental consequence—is what if those who are involved in the construction and running of nuclear power stations and who are charged with the internalising of the costs of decommissioning into the overall cost package were to go bankrupt? What if that company goes to the wall? What happens to the steps needed to ensure safe decommissioning with regard to the impact on the environment if it is not properly handled?
I understand that at the point of negotiating contracts with companies such as Hitachi and the others, the Government clearly want to make sure that the companies that may make profit out of this pay the costs that are consequential on the work they are undertaking. Of course, it is right that this should be so, but there still needs to be some guarantee, at the end of the road, that the communities that are hosting this new generation of nuclear power stations cannot, under any circumstances, be left with a nuclear hulk the cost of decommissioning of which nobody is willing to take on. I believe that assurances along these lines are needed in order to make it easier for those, such as myself, who are in favour of nuclear power, to be able to argue the case. It is a worry and I have not heard how it will be addressed in those unfortunate, unlikely but still possible circumstances that could arise at some date in the future.
Lord Judd
My Lords, after the slight wobble with my Front Bench a moment ago, I am very glad to find myself 300% on board with them. I think that the amendments are absolutely right; I hope that they press them hard and that the Minister will find the opportunity to respond positively.
I always get a bit worried about what is happening with climate change in the sense that I am never quite sure that the principles with which I grew up still apply, but if the prevailing wind in Britain is still south-westerly, I live 12 miles north-east of Sellafield so I obviously take these arguments very seriously indeed. I am in favour of the next generation of nuclear energy: there is no argument about that, and obviously we in Cumbria will play our part in one way or another. That is given, but this is highly dangerous, lethal engineering of which we are speaking and it seems to me that we cannot have anything but the highest standards. I was very glad to find myself sympathising with a great deal of what the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, was saying, but I could not quite buy his total argument that very, very, very safe was perhaps too much. I think that the developments have to be as safe as they can be.
As we go into this new generation of construction we have heard quite explicitly from the Government—it has been repeated tonight—that we have not got the necessary expertise. This is a very hazardous development. I think that we need some very specific, concrete plans from the Government for bringing the preparation of our own engineering capacity up to date and I urge my own colleagues in opposition to take this seriously too. I do not like the prospect of our being dependent upon foreign expertise in the area of safety: I do not think that it is in any way an ideal situation.
The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, made the point about, “What if?”. I do not think that one can ask too many such questions when we are going into this very important new development. The basic issue is that we have an engineering deficit in terms of our own capabilities and we are putting ourselves into the hands of foreign engineers. Everyone will know that I am an internationalist second to none, but it seems to me that we need to be very clear about how we are going to generate the expertise in this country and very fast indeed.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Grantchester, and the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for their amendments. I also thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this important debate on the nuclear regulation clauses in the Bill. My noble friends Lord Jenkin and Lord Caithness, who have a great deal of experience and knowledge in these matters, are right to point out that there could be some confusion if we were to take these amendments as they are laid out.
Amendment 76A seeks to expand the ONR’s nuclear safety purposes to include responsibility for the environment. As my noble friend Lord Jenkin pointed out, a regulatory framework is already in place to protect the environment and the relevant agencies—the Environment Agency, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and Natural Resources Wales—are well placed to carry out this role. The interim ONR has a strong working relationship with these regulators, which will continue once the ONR becomes a statutory body.
I understand noble Lords’ interest in the regulation of the environment but it would not be appropriate to expand the ONR’s purposes to overlap with those of established regulators. This would create conflict between two different regulators in the same field and place additional regulatory burdens upon members of the regulated community. As I said earlier, it would create confusion.
Amendment 78B seeks to include a new clause in the Bill concerning the design and construction of nuclear installations. It places a responsibility on the ONR, in conjunction with the Environment Agency, to regulate the design and construction of installations. The amendment also requires that the ONR alone is responsible for ensuring not only the highest technological and safety standards but that the most cost-effective measures are taken.
First, I reassure noble Lords that the regulation of the design and construction of nuclear installations is firmly within the ONR’s purposes and that the organisation, through well established legislation such as the Nuclear Installations Act 1965 and the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 will continue to do this. Secondly, the ONR has a strong working relationship with the Environment Agency in its generic design programme, and this will continue to be in place. To place such a duty in the Bill is therefore unnecessary. It would also be inappropriate to place the ONR under a duty to require the industry to use the most advanced technology available. The role of the ONR is to ensure that the design and construction of nuclear installations meet safety standards. This may involve the use of new or advanced technology. However, the focus is rightly on achieving the highest possible safety standards.
I reassure noble Lords that in undertaking its function with respect to the design and construction of nuclear installations, the ONR will work to ensure that these plants are designed and built not only to be safe but to make use of appropriately advanced and proven technology. It would be grossly inappropriate to place a duty on the safety regulator to regulate the cost efficiency of the construction of these installations. Such a requirement risks diverting the ONR’s attention away from its crucial safety role and placing potentially conflicting requirements on its regulators.
I agree with the sentiment that nuclear installations must be designed, built and operated to deliver value for money. However, I do not believe that this should or can be achieved by placing the safety regulator in the position where it must ensure that this is the case. It is for companies such as EDF to build and operate new nuclear power stations and make decisions about which reactors they use. It is important that any reactor used is safe and effective in its design, and the UK has a strong regulatory regime in place to ensure that that is the case. I understand that we need to have value for consumers, but it is not the role of the ONR to involve itself in the cost of design. The central role for the ONR is to ensure that we have the highest standards of safety in place.
My noble friend Lord Jenkin asked whether the ONR was expecting too much in terms of safety. The ONR expects nuclear installations to reduce risk as far as is reasonably practical. That is an established tenet of health and safety law and the nuclear industry is comfortable working within this regulatory framework.
The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, asked what would happen to the decommissioning costs if an operator became bankrupt. Under the funded decommissioning programme, operators of new nuclear power stations will be required to meet agreements from the Secretary of State to ensure that costs of waste management and decommissioning are met from day one for operators. These arrangements will need to be independent of the operator and will therefore take account of the operator going bankrupt.
Lord Wigley
I am very grateful to the Minister. I have no doubt that there will be a funding process that ensures that there is a pool of money to meet what is foreseen as the decommissioning costs. However, what happens if the standards, as they develop over a lifetime or 20 or 30 years, change in a way that leads to additional costs, or if the economic circumstances of the company disintegrate, for whatever reason, and it is not able to top up that pool as it goes along? What, then, is the safeguard that she and the Government can give to communities that there will be somebody who will step in and not leave them with a nuclear hulk, with all the implications that that could have? Those assurances are needed by the communities that are going to be welcoming these nuclear installations.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I take the noble Lord’s concerns very seriously. It may be helpful if he would allow me to write to him in further detail about the decommissioning plans that we have in place. I will try to reassure him that the independents with these funds in place are away from the operators, and we are keen to make sure that the funds are met. However, since I have not reassured him enough, I think it may be helpful to write to him.
My noble friend the Duke of Montrose asked if the ONR will regulate ongoing operations of power stations. The ONR will continue to regulate and monitor installations as they are operating and beyond. It will continue to work closely with the Environment Agency and, of course, the other, separate agencies of the devolved powers to ensure that the effects of nuclear power generation on the environment are monitored and action taken where necessary.
My noble friend Lord Caithness said that we should have a single design for reactors. The Government’s position has always been clear in that we encourage diversity in reactor design but of course, as with all things, they have to meet the highest standards that we expect of them.