Care Bill [HL]

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I support the creative thinking of my noble friend. The truth of the matter is that we certainly did not have enough time to go into the kind of detail that he has done, which he has explained very clearly. I have to confess that we were not aware of the nursing allowance. Perhaps we should have been. If we had been, I think that we would have justified the scrapping of it by saying that that would be used to help to finance our mainstream proposals.

Also, we said in our report that we thought that the Government should look again at the personal expenses allowance. We thought that it was extremely mean. In a way, it has not kept pace with inflation over the years and it now seems a rather derisory amount. Therefore, anything that could be done to improve that without increasing the cost of public expenditure would seem to us a good idea.

I commend my noble friend for his creativity. I hope that the Government will take his amendment away and look at it seriously to see whether something can be done with it, because I think that it is an improvement on our recommendations.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I, too, have a great deal of sympathy for the core of my noble friend’s proposal to change the means test to increase personal allowances to support people so that they have enough money for what he described as “small treats”. Like my noble friend Lord Warner, I should be interested in the noble Earl’s response to that point.

I also sympathise with my noble friend’s second proposal to help those with modest assets by making the means test less severe. It is clear to most of us that the benefits of Dilnot will go to the better off. I think that one must be sympathetic to my noble friend’s aim of trying to spread the benefits more widely. Of course, that comes with a cost, and my noble friend’s answer to that is the proposal to abolish the nursing care allowance or to phase it out. Perhaps the term is grandparenting; I am not sure of the phrase but the Lords reform proposals come to mind—the transition.

Whether that is the right approach must of course be subject to some debate, and I would certainly need some convincing about the phasing out of the nursing care allowance. However, I think that my noble friend has done us a service and I hope that we will have further discussions on it between now and Report.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)]

My Lords, on one level I sympathise with the intention of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, to redistribute funding between health and care and support so as to increase the personal expenses allowance and local authority support for those in residential care. However, we need to face the reality of the current economic climate. One important aspect of our reforms is that the greatest support will go to those with the greatest need, and that is surely the policy aim that we need to keep most closely in mind in this context.

Currently, the NHS funds nursing homes to support the provision of registered nursing care. This reduces the burden on the NHS of having to provide NHS nurses in residential care homes. Removing this funding would risk increasing costs elsewhere in the NHS, but it would also breach a serious point of principle. If we were to stop people in residential care homes from being eligible for NHS-funded nursing care, it would undermine one of the founding principles of the NHS, which is that it should be a service free at the point of delivery. I am sure that noble Lords would agree that we would not like to see that.

I understand why the noble Lord seeks to increase the personal expenses allowance. If someone is contributing to the costs of their residential care from their net income, for example from their pension, the personal expenses allowance is the amount people can retain to spend as they wish. This is currently set, as he rightly said, at £23.90. The amendment would increase it to £32.75. When living at home, people pay for their food and heating from their income. It is right that people should continue to contribute towards these costs in residential care. The personal expenses allowance reflects the fact that for most people these costs represent a large proportion of their income, but it allows people to retain some of their income for other uses. The reality is that spending additional resources on the personal expenses allowance would reduce the resources available to provide support to those with the greatest needs.

I heard what the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, said about the loss of the attendance allowance meaning that people would be worse off. Local authorities should support people to maximise their income. If a given individual would be better off receiving the attendance allowance, the local authority should support them to achieve this. We will bear this in mind as we draw up the regulations.

I turn now to Amendment 91, which relates to financial assessments. One of the problems the Dilnot recommendations attempt to tackle is the cliff edge between being a self-funder and being supported by the local authority. By extending the means test for people in residential care, we aim to avoid a situation where a small change in a person’s capital results in a large change in what they pay for care.

From 2016, the maximum tariff income for someone with £118,000 in assets will be £404 per week. If we reduced the rate at which people contribute toward their care costs from their assets to £1 per week for every £500 of assets, the contribution for someone with £118,000 in assets would become £202 per week. This means that an individual facing a typical care home fee would be over £200 per week better off if they had assets of £117,000 than if they had assets of £119,000. This would reintroduce the cliff edge that surely none of us wants to see.

I believe that our plans represent a fair balance between the individual and the state. People with care needs will receive additional support with care and support costs through the extended means test, safe in the knowledge that health services will remain free at the point of use and that they are protected by the cap from unlimited care costs. I hope the noble Lord will see that there is method in the Government’s proposals. While I totally understand much of his rationale, I think our proposals have a better balance. I hope that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I intervene on this to talk very briefly about what the Dilnot commission said on this issue. I will quote just two sentences from page 22 of our final report, which are worth putting on the record. We said very clearly:

“The state-funded care element will be based on a local authority care package, but people will be free to top up from their own resources, should they wish. If someone moved to a different local authority, they would take with them a record of their contributions to date”.

That is a very clear statement of what our policy was. When we were taking evidence, there was not a lot given to us about the extent of top-ups.

If I fast forward to my time on the Joint Select Committee with other Members of this House, the issue of top-ups seemed to have changed quite significantly between the time when the commission reported, having considered all this, and the time that the Joint Select Committee was working on it. There were not good data, other than that many of us have been increasingly learning that the top-up levels have been quite considerable in some homes. There is clearly a problem with the cross-subsidising of people who are state funded from self-funders. The issue is now complex and I do not know how good the Government’s data are on the use of top-ups. We were clear that you could count towards the cap only what the state-funded element of that payment was, which would be determined by what the local authority would pay in its area for the care being provided. If we depart from that principle, we will end up in chaos—and probably end up with a much higher public expenditure bill.

There is an issue here that the Government need to think about, but in principle we should do nothing to stop people topping up if they and their family are prepared to provide for a higher level of care. The present rules were drawn up for a different time and on top-ups, the world has moved on. We need to get this straight before we finish this Bill.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I, too, would welcome a debate about top-ups and the Government’s present position and response to the Dilnot proposals, as enunciated by my noble friend Lord Warner. It would also be helpful if the noble Earl could give us a little thinking about how the Government expect this to work out in practice.

We start with the fact that a local authority has to have an assessment to add to the baseline to set the clock running, so as to get to the £72,000 cap. We have already discussed transparency and the problems arising where self-funders find that they have in fact been subsidising those people funded by the local authority. I would be particularly interested to know from the noble Earl what calculations have been undertaken by his department about the impact on self-funders when responsibility is taken over by the local authority once the cap has been reached. Has any work been done on the extent to which those self-funders will be forced to move home because the local authority will not fund them at the rate that they have been self-funding, while the home itself is requiring those people to move?

My noble friend Lord Lipsey referred to the general experience—we have seen it in the health service—that when very frail elderly people are forced to move from one care setting to another their life outcomes are very poor indeed. Clearly, it would be wholly unsatisfactory if, as a result of bringing in the £72,000 cap, we had the perverse incentive of forcing a lot of movements by frail, vulnerable people that would have a deleterious effect on their health and life outcomes.

That brings us to whether removing the top-up restriction would be an appropriate response. My noble friends have put forward a persuasive case. It is important that the Government should enable the House to come to a view on these matters, having made an assessment of how the introduction of state support for self-funders who have reached the cap is going to work in practice.