Care Bill [HL]

Lord Warner Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Lords Chamber

I would not recommend abolishing this allowance immediately, and not just because of my mum—that would be too much. It is not a good idea to take away benefit from people who are already getting it. They make far more noise than people who gain from the benefits they receive as a result. The people who are having them taken away feel their pockets have been picked, and the people who are receiving the benefit think that they are not getting anymore than they were due anyway. However we do not need to abolish it. We simply bar, as my amendment would, new claims from April 2016. Since most recipients of the benefit are old, and not in a good state, their life expectancy is not good. I hope, of course, my wonderful mother is an exception. Therefore, in a few years’ time—probably three or four years—the total cost of the benefit will be saved. Through that, we will provide enough to pay for the less severe tariff and enough to pay for increased personal requirements allowances, while leaving more than £200 million over to fill part of the black hole in the provision of services to older people. What is not to like about that?

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I support the creative thinking of my noble friend. The truth of the matter is that we certainly did not have enough time to go into the kind of detail that he has done, which he has explained very clearly. I have to confess that we were not aware of the nursing allowance. Perhaps we should have been. If we had been, I think that we would have justified the scrapping of it by saying that that would be used to help to finance our mainstream proposals.

Also, we said in our report that we thought that the Government should look again at the personal expenses allowance. We thought that it was extremely mean. In a way, it has not kept pace with inflation over the years and it now seems a rather derisory amount. Therefore, anything that could be done to improve that without increasing the cost of public expenditure would seem to us a good idea.

I commend my noble friend for his creativity. I hope that the Government will take his amendment away and look at it seriously to see whether something can be done with it, because I think that it is an improvement on our recommendations.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I, too, have a great deal of sympathy for the core of my noble friend’s proposal to change the means test to increase personal allowances to support people so that they have enough money for what he described as “small treats”. Like my noble friend Lord Warner, I should be interested in the noble Earl’s response to that point.

I also sympathise with my noble friend’s second proposal to help those with modest assets by making the means test less severe. It is clear to most of us that the benefits of Dilnot will go to the better off. I think that one must be sympathetic to my noble friend’s aim of trying to spread the benefits more widely. Of course, that comes with a cost, and my noble friend’s answer to that is the proposal to abolish the nursing care allowance or to phase it out. Perhaps the term is grandparenting; I am not sure of the phrase but the Lords reform proposals come to mind—the transition.

Whether that is the right approach must of course be subject to some debate, and I would certainly need some convincing about the phasing out of the nursing care allowance. However, I think that my noble friend has done us a service and I hope that we will have further discussions on it between now and Report.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lipsey]

This is another piece of arcanery, I am afraid, for the House. It is a genuinely probing amendment.

Not everyone may know what top-ups are, any more than everyone knows what nursing care allowances are. They arise for people who are not paying in full for their own care but want a better standard of care than the local authority is prepared to pay for. There are a quite a lot of these people. There are about 350,000 people in care homes and about 50,000-plus of them get care allowance. If a local authority claims a person’s needs can be met in a home costing £400 a week and the old person or their family prefers one costing £500 a week, they get the means-tested support as if they were in a £400-a-week home and the family finds £100 from their own pockets.

However, there is a strange twist. As long as a third party—usually the old person’s family—is prepared to dip into their pockets for the extra £100, there is no legal problem. They can do so under LAC circular (2004) 20, which derives from the National Assistance Act 1948. But if the old person wants better care, they can top up out of their own pocket only in very limited circumstances. They can do so only if they are subject to the 12-week disregard—which is the period you can be in a care home to see whether you get better and come out—or if they have a deferred payment agreement with the council, when the council may make top-up payments on their behalf. In theory, people cannot top up their own home fees but these can be topped up by other people.

As a historian of the Treasury, I can sort of see how this might come about. The Treasury would not want those whose means-tested contribution is offset by the tariff, as has been discussed, running down their assets to pay for better care, thus throwing more of the burden on the state. However, those in the know say that the restriction is widely ignored, often with the connivance of councils that do not want to get into an argument about whether the accommodation they will provide within their own limits is adequate for the old person. As a result, they allow the old person to chip in for their own care—perhaps he or she puts the money into a son’s bank account, the bank account pays the home and we do not know what goes on.

In parentheses, it is perfectly clear that local authorities know very little about what is going on with top-ups. I refer to the report due to be published by the charity Independent Age tomorrow, which analysed this after doing a freedom of information request on all councils. Out of the councils they asked, only 30 or so can be reckoned to have best practice or a good system for keeping account of top-ups. The rest are either bad or worse.

These mysterious top-ups go on, otherwise the old people would have to move out of the home they are in and into a local authority home. As noble Lords know, if you move old people from the home they are in to another home, what frequently happens, I am afraid, is that they die. This strange top-up mess is more difficult in the post-Dilnot world. Because of the extension of the asset limit for means tests, many more people will be receiving means-tested support, and anyone who is receiving means-tested support cannot do a top-up; that is the law. Many more people will therefore find themselves limited in what they can do if they stick by the law—which, as I say, they often do not.

Secondly, because the deferred payments scheme will be made available to everybody, more people will escape through the loophole in the current regulations that allows those on deferred payments to top up—you can do it if you have a deferred loan from the local authority but you cannot if you do not. The injustice between those who can and do defer and those who do not is made worse—the former can top up but the latter cannot. That will be a growing problem and a huge incentive for people to take out deferred payments, because they can legally top themselves up that way.

Thirdly, and potentially more importantly, let us suppose a person is self-funding and in a home where the fee exceeds what the local authority will pay. They reach the cap, having spent their £72,000. What will happen then? The state will meet that part of the cost of the home that they are in which is equivalent to what they would pay if they were in the home selected and provided by the local authority—their limit. If the home costs more than that—£600 a week not £400—where will the rest of the fees come from? Perhaps their family does not have any money for a top-up or is unwilling to provide it. Who is going to top it up? I am afraid that the crude reality is that some people will persuade the council to pay the higher fee while others will be moved—and, as I have already said, people who are moved will as a result, on average, die considerably younger. That is not a side-effect that Dilnot planned for but it is a side-effect of the way it is going to work out. Nothing much has been said by the Government about what happens if you reach the £72,000 cap and are in a home costing more than the local authority is prepared to pay. Until we get reassurances on that, the reality must be that they will be moved out to another, poorer, home and that this is going to be a tragedy.

The irony is that these are not poor people falling back on the state. They may well have assets and might be very willing to put in a bit extra to ensure that their last years are comfortable, but they are prevented by law—if they obey it—from doing so. Either they decide to opt out of Dilnot and fund their care in full, in which case they will not benefit from the cap and Dilnot, for them, amounts to nothing, or they go through the business of moving to the inferior home and we will have inflicted that disaster on them.

This area has not been much explored but there is a simple way of dealing with it, which is incorporated in this amendment. It is simply to end the ban on residents topping up their own fees. I do not think the cost would be very much but if the Minister has some other way of dealing with it, he should tell the Committee now before we endorse a policy which could lead to the mass eviction of old people from the residential homes in which they have long lived, in sharp contravention of all we are aiming to do in this Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I intervene on this to talk very briefly about what the Dilnot commission said on this issue. I will quote just two sentences from page 22 of our final report, which are worth putting on the record. We said very clearly:

“The state-funded care element will be based on a local authority care package, but people will be free to top up from their own resources, should they wish. If someone moved to a different local authority, they would take with them a record of their contributions to date”.

That is a very clear statement of what our policy was. When we were taking evidence, there was not a lot given to us about the extent of top-ups.

If I fast forward to my time on the Joint Select Committee with other Members of this House, the issue of top-ups seemed to have changed quite significantly between the time when the commission reported, having considered all this, and the time that the Joint Select Committee was working on it. There were not good data, other than that many of us have been increasingly learning that the top-up levels have been quite considerable in some homes. There is clearly a problem with the cross-subsidising of people who are state funded from self-funders. The issue is now complex and I do not know how good the Government’s data are on the use of top-ups. We were clear that you could count towards the cap only what the state-funded element of that payment was, which would be determined by what the local authority would pay in its area for the care being provided. If we depart from that principle, we will end up in chaos—and probably end up with a much higher public expenditure bill.

There is an issue here that the Government need to think about, but in principle we should do nothing to stop people topping up if they and their family are prepared to provide for a higher level of care. The present rules were drawn up for a different time and on top-ups, the world has moved on. We need to get this straight before we finish this Bill.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I, too, would welcome a debate about top-ups and the Government’s present position and response to the Dilnot proposals, as enunciated by my noble friend Lord Warner. It would also be helpful if the noble Earl could give us a little thinking about how the Government expect this to work out in practice.

We start with the fact that a local authority has to have an assessment to add to the baseline to set the clock running, so as to get to the £72,000 cap. We have already discussed transparency and the problems arising where self-funders find that they have in fact been subsidising those people funded by the local authority. I would be particularly interested to know from the noble Earl what calculations have been undertaken by his department about the impact on self-funders when responsibility is taken over by the local authority once the cap has been reached. Has any work been done on the extent to which those self-funders will be forced to move home because the local authority will not fund them at the rate that they have been self-funding, while the home itself is requiring those people to move?

My noble friend Lord Lipsey referred to the general experience—we have seen it in the health service—that when very frail elderly people are forced to move from one care setting to another their life outcomes are very poor indeed. Clearly, it would be wholly unsatisfactory if, as a result of bringing in the £72,000 cap, we had the perverse incentive of forcing a lot of movements by frail, vulnerable people that would have a deleterious effect on their health and life outcomes.

That brings us to whether removing the top-up restriction would be an appropriate response. My noble friends have put forward a persuasive case. It is important that the Government should enable the House to come to a view on these matters, having made an assessment of how the introduction of state support for self-funders who have reached the cap is going to work in practice.