Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 23rd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I echo what has been said and warmly second the list of thanks that was offered so well—especially as I was included in it. In addition to those listed, I thank my noble friends Lord Rooker and Lord Hunt. We heard wonderful disquisitions from the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and I know there will be many more in the future. I have already welcomed the noble Baroness to her post and I very much look forward to working with her, but: she must be very careful in that job because, if she looks to her right, she will see what just might happen to her.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness to her role. This is a very happy and really unusual moment in this House, in that we have something that we all agree on. I encourage everybody to, first, apply for tickets, and, secondly, to look to sponsor another big sporting event soon.

Football: Racism

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for that response. What contrasting images, on two successive days, between typhoon-struck Japan on the rugby field and these disgraceful exhibitions of racism on the football field in Sofia. Of course, the vocabulary available to us for condemning this must be used properly and powerfully. I wonder whether it is not the outbreak of something that lurks beneath the surface and is therefore much more widely worrying than simply what happens on the football field. That gives a sense of urgency to our need to respond. I note that the Bulgarian Prime Minister has spoken out and that, subsequently, the president of the Bulgarian Football Union has resigned. Clearly, within Bulgaria there is feeling about this too. Perhaps we should try to keep our diplomatic channels open and our arms outreached to embrace the positive side of Bulgarian society, as well as being critical of the damning and damnable incidents that we have all been witness to.

[Baroness Barran]

I thank the noble Lord for his reflections. Like him, we welcome the positive action that was taken so promptly by the Bulgarian Government last night and note the resignation of the president of the Bulgarian FA. The noble Lord is right that there are wider forces at work here. We have worked for a long time to try to stamp out racism in all parts of our society, but particularly in football, and we continue to be vigilant.

Professional Football

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran]

I empathise with the noble Lord’s concerns and absolutely acknowledge the crucial role that football clubs play in their communities, both large and small, but the Government are clear that it is the responsibility of the football authorities to undertake any review. The Government are committed to supporting that if that is what they decide to do but are equally committed to making sure that lines of accountability should not be blurred.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness and welcome her to her present responsibilities—living proof, if one needs one, that the profits of capitalism and social awareness and justice can coexist. I look forward to exchanges with her over time. I also take this opportunity to congratulate—at least, I think I want to congratulate—her predecessor on his promotion. Bury Football Club is not just a place where 22 people play the game of football. It is really—the words were used but recognition is more than words—a whole town coming together, a culture and community centre. I would like to hear the noble Baroness commit the Government to supporting the local Member of Parliament, the supporters’ clubs, the local authorities and politicians from various backgrounds in their efforts to persuade the Football League to admit the precedent of readmitting Bury. Precedents are in the news at the moment. The Government seem ready to experiment with them; perhaps in this instance they might do so again.

[Baroness Barran]

I thank the noble Lord for his generous words. Like him, I look forward—who knows for how long—to debating these issues with him and other noble Lords across the Dispatch Box. He will be aware that the Sports Minister has been very vocal in his concern about what happened at Bury and nearly happened at Bolton. I share his concerns but, equally, the decision about whether clubs should be readmitted or not is for the English Football League, and is one where the Government can share their experience and act as a sounding board but not where we can get directly involved.

Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Wednesday 24th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Redesdale]

The noble Lord will be first in the queue. I understand it is hard in the hospitality sector at the moment and we should not underestimate the problems that many hotels which have pubs are facing. A number of pubs are going out of business at the moment. It is a seasonal trade and you have to put prices up in the summer—especially in my pub because for two weeks the year before last it was cut off by snow and there was no income whatever.

While the idea of localised taxation is good in principle, we have to be careful that it is not seen as a blunt tool. Small providers who might find a few pounds the difference between making a profit, breaking even or making a loss should be considered carefully.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, it has been an interesting debate that has been not without its entertainment, as we have enjoyed over the past few minutes. I shall speak to Amendment 7.

In Michael Heseltine’s recent report Empowering English Cities, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, reference was made to the West Midlands joint authority, and the Birmingham Games of 2022 figure as a part of what will generate economic activity in the next five years in that area. It is on the list of the authority and I am glad to refer to it.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, I was merely referring to the fact that this tax was not mentioned in the report.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port]

I am glad to have that intervention, which does not affect what I want to say in the slightest.

The thin-end-of-the-wedge argument interests me. I was once an academic. I do not know who remembers Microcosmographia Academica by FM Cornford. In academic circles, the thin-end-of-the-wedge argument was one sure way that nothing would be done. Let us remind ourselves that the wedge is not always a bad thing. In my house it does considerable work with uneven floors. So, let us take things as we find them. I heard the proper arguments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and from the Liberal Benches, and I also heard the proper arguments from our Benches. We have been debating this for 31 minutes and 17 seconds. The report to the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Hospitality took its time—considerably more than 31 minutes and 17 seconds—and all the arguments that have been rehearsed on behalf of the business community were heard and are properly registered. All the arguments that were put for the possibility of such a tax have been rehearsed and are part of the argument. Having heard both sides in detail, we get to the recommendation that has already been mentioned—forgive the poor cataract-less ancient Peer putting his glasses on:

“The All-Party Parliamentary Group for Hospitality is calling for greater examination of the potential impact of a tourist tax on consumers, businesses and the economy before taking any decisions on the principle of introducing one”.


The question is open; evidence is needed. A project to find some evidence would not be a bad thing so that we can take 32 minutes and 24 seconds in a year’s time to say that the study has been done, the respective arguments have been seen and weighed and we can now with some confidence recommend either that this goes forward for a two-year period so that we can see what happens and evaluate it carefully, or that the evidence is conclusive and we had better drop it. That is where the APPG left things after a lot of consideration. I have listened to it very carefully. The arguments against and for are valid, and the conclusion is uncertain. Something is needed to give us more certainty when we look at the matter again. I suggest that Amendment 7, which I tabled, might do that. It is provisional, time-limited, place-limited and linked to the Commonwealth Games. Where is the wedge in that? It is specific. It has a shape. It is not pointed to be rammed in further later, but has a definite geometrical shape.

I have heard from the council in Birmingham. It tells me that it has had discussions with DCMS during the bidding process and since about alternative funding streams, including a hotel occupancy tax. It was given assurances by DCMS that it would assist the council in talking to the Government about those alternative funding streams. The council’s argument goes on to the points we have heard already. So, the DCMS Minister is facing me and DCMS has had some discussions and made a commitment to talk to the Government about the possibility of achieving an object rather like the one we are putting forward now. Perhaps the Minister can tell us what the substantive remarks and commitments referred to in the document were. I cannot see what we have to lose.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

I am following the noble Lord’s argument as carefully as I can, and I shall go away and read the book he recommended, with gusto, I am sure. Will he address the point I made about imposing a tax, even in the circumstances of Birmingham, making us less competitive and the fact that hotels are potentially facing staff shortages and 20% VAT, which they mention every time I see them?

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port]

I am grateful for that intervention. It allows me simply to give the assurance that in the findings of the committee to which I have referred those specific points have been considered, with figures identical to those that have been mentioned. The business side of things needs to be heard. VAT at 20% in this country compares with 12%, 6% or 7% in other European countries, and it loads the tax base here much more than there. It puts this country’s hotels at a disadvantage compared with those overseas. I am not denying these important considerations at all; I am simply saying that, by approving this measure, we could have a specific, properly looked at piece of work that would allow us to take all these factors into consideration and come to a conclusion that would be justified evidentially rather than simply being based on a feeling at this particular moment—on the last day but one of a Session, when, as noble Lords can see, sartorially I am dressed for other occasions.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I did not expect to enjoy a debate on raising tax but it was very entertaining. I thought that the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Griffiths, put their case very persuasively. I was going to mention the thin edge of the wedge but it has already been mentioned several times. The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, made a new suggestion about taking advantage of the absence of a Chancellor of the Exchequer. There might not be a Minister soon, and it would guarantee that there would not be a Minister if I did that. I am also grateful for the support of my noble friends.

Perhaps I might say something about the state of Birmingham’s finances and what Birmingham City Council is doing. As I mentioned in Committee, Birmingham and the West Midlands region will benefit, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, from a £778 million investment to stage the 2022 Commonwealth Games, with Birmingham City Council and a number of its key partners providing funding of £184 million—25%—of the Games budget.

Birmingham City Council has publicly committed to meet its financial obligations for the Games, and approved a four-year council budget at a full council meeting on 26 February this year, stating that there are sufficient reserves to cover the city’s share of the costs. It has already explained how it will meet its obligations without impacting on existing services. I refer noble Lords to Birmingham City Council’s publicly available Financial Plan 2019-2023. This states that,

“resources have been identified for this purpose that will be sufficient to meet these funding liabilities as they fall due”.

It might interest noble Lords to know that the Government have already committed to working constructively with Birmingham City Council, to the extent that there was correspondence on 7 December 2017 from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to Birmingham City Council on reviewing existing legislative powers and listening to requests for new powers, should the case for additional funding be made.

As the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, said, we are in frequent dialogue with Birmingham City Council but, to date, no detailed case has been put forward to evidence the need for an additional power. However, I understand that Birmingham City Council is now undertaking detailed work, with expert advice, on various options for revenue-raising to offset the costs of the Games, including the use of existing powers or the introduction of a new tax, such as a hotel tax. We and Her Majesty’s Treasury await the conclusion of that analysis and stand ready to look at the details of any proposals put forward by the council.

My honourable friend the Minister for Sport and Civil Society—I have her full title right this time—has spoken to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury about this. As I stated previously, matters of taxation are for HM Treasury to consider, with appropriate evidence, consultation and assessment of impact—for example, on tourism—as my noble friends Lady McIntosh and Lady Neville-Rolfe mentioned. I am grateful to my noble friends for their support.

We consider that these amendments are not an appropriate measure for the Bill, which, I remind your Lordships, is focused on providing the temporary operational powers required to deliver a successful Games, and they would pre-empt the outcome of the work already being undertaken by Birmingham City Council.

Social Media

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Thursday 11th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been such an interesting debate. At the heart of the online harms White Paper, there is a declared statutory duty of care; it is at the heart of the thinking and outworking of the principles contained within that White Paper.

This is such a week for us to have this debate. Reference has been made to events in Washington, which show the way in which the online facilities can be used. My worry is that such extravagant, Wild West uses of the technology are rapidly becoming normal. The normalising of such uses worries me. It plays well with something the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford said about the moral maze. There is within all of us that which can be appealed to by good and by what is not good. We should take note of that.

Some Members of our Benches have felt the need to resign the Whip. I heard about the amount of abuse one of them received in one week via these same social media. To have this debate in the context of happenings of that kind adds a dimension to the thinking required of us.

There was a great event in our home over the weekend. For the first time, my middle son entrusted his son to my wife and me. It is amazing how our three children think we are novices in the art of bringing up children. We brought them up, but we had to pass all kinds of tests before Thomas was allowed to come home to us. What a remarkable young man he has turned out to be: “May I leave the table, grandpa? Can I help wash up the dishes? You do not need to come and help me in the bathroom; I will call when I need you”. He was exemplary. It proves that a good upbringing with good teaching at home can achieve all kinds of things. I happen to know that that child was quite wilful when he was younger. All three of my children were. I know that a lot of parenting is about harnessing the energy that can express itself harmfully, and somehow using that same energy for outcomes that are altogether more beneficial. That is where we are at home—a little domestic story with which to begin.

I believe that human nature is much more malign than the Church of England seems to think, but Methodists have always have had a more severe doctrine of humanity than the Church of England does. Natural optimism does not come to us, because we have to fight against the establishment for our basic rights. It is scriptural too that all men are sinners,

“and fall short of the glory of God”.

I can give noble Lords the biblical references if they want. Yes, I know it is Romans.

Addressing questions of behaviour and ethics requires us to take an appropriate view of the nature of humanity and that inbuilt insecurity that drives us to want more, to master more, to achieve more and, sometimes, all of that at any expense. The internet is a tool for that basic instinct of human nature that, left untrammelled, can be dangerous for society. I fear the worst. This statutory duty of care is to be safe, respectful, kind, honest and take responsibility. Why did the Church of England stop at nine when, biblically, it should be 10? We heard the 10 commandments mentioned, and the noble Lord, Lord McNally, provided what might be a 10th: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. I prefer the negative form of that golden rule: do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you. It is a more honest place to start for human natures that, by their biological conditioning and the insecurity that comes from that, want more and to master more. That, like my grandson Thomas, somehow must be educated and channelled. We need to turn the “Titanic”—perhaps that is an unfortunate example; I should say the tanker—in midstream. It has travelled a long way and will take a lot of curbing.

I chime with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, who said that, as well as applying rules to human nature, we should think of how to turn them back on the platforms that provide them with the tools that they also need to know how to handle. I am 15 seconds short of the time, and all I can say is that a statutory duty of care requires us to identify our neighbour and do our best to help them, as well as us, to do better.

Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Tuesday 9th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem]

My Lords, I may be hypersensitive, but I inferred from something that the noble Baroness said that she might have understood me to suggest that I was in some way opposed to the principles that the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, set out. I am of course not opposed to those: there is no more enthusiastic supporter of the obligation of human rights in the Chamber than myself, I venture to suggest. All I was at pains to do was to point out, as I think has already been agreed, that these are rather demanding obligations and I am anxious to ensure that there are the necessary resources to ensure that they will be met.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a most instructive debate right at the outset of our consideration of the Bill. It might well be worth while for all of us to read in Hansard the many detailed, specific and informed remarks that have been made from varying angles. I thank all who have taken part thus far and I invoke the name of my noble friend Lord Hunt, simply because his absence today really was unavoidable and he will certainly want to take part in the future evolution of this debate. I thought if I mentioned that right now, noble Lords could take that into account. Much of the thinking, as my noble friend Lord Rooker said, was initiated by him.

These amendments, in their totality, ask us to look at a number of things. It is true, as has been said, that the wish list on the legacy amendment is long and, as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said, could be longer. I will concentrate on two things my noble friend highlighted: the question of housing and the alchemy—if that is what it is—that turns houses into communities. A proper legacy would not only build a certain number of houses and have a certain percentage of them for this, that or the other category of use, but would leave us with schools that children could go to and places where they could play. Some of the very desirable things mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan—activity, sport and so on—could be done within the community thus created. It seems to make a lot of sense. Various percentages are mentioned in the amendments: 50% for social housing, for example. The right reverend Prelate suggested that from the Birmingham end it is 35%; well, there is room for debate there. The facts have been laid before us, the options are there and I am sure we will have some keen and passionate debates in due course.

The noble Lord, Lord Addington, talked about the importance of the flow of information, and he was echoed by others. The noble Lord, Lord Coe, or perhaps it was the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan—I tend to get them mixed up; since I first met them both on television, I cannot tell them apart in the flesh—emphasised information flow and the prime need for transparency. It does us well as we debate this issue to remember that we are not the only stakeholders, or prime actors in this drama. In terms of local government, it is not just the City of Birmingham but other local authorities which differentiate this initiative from Glasgow and London and make it a bit more complex and needful of a good deal more thought. There is local government; DCMS and our own Government; our own organising committee, which has been amply referred to, with the owners’ responsibilities weighing upon it; the Commonwealth Games Federation itself, of course; and all those beholden to all of them. Very complex organisation of bureaucracy is involved here, and the need for a flow of information is paramount.

Such awareness as I have of the work being done in other places in this process leaves me really rather heartened. In Birmingham, the strands of community cohesion, civic pride, culture, tourism, trade, investment, jobs and skills, education, infrastructure, sustainability, accessibility, physical activity and well-being are being looked at already. Areas of collaboration between the private and public sectors, and local and national government, are already being identified, and schemes and projects are already being worked on. In a sense, we are behind the curve compared with what is happening elsewhere. We must take heart from that. The flow of information seems very important.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, before the Minister launches off to fight with his own Treasury bat, I just want to say that amendments such as this are very attractive, especially for a party that looks to local government being slightly more independent and having more power. The question here would be about the limitation of the charge. Have the Government done any research on this, or anything that would tell us what it would cost to get it? What would the benefit be at a given rate? This is a genuine argument and there are examples of doing this in the UK. If it can be done and set at a rate that makes a real benefit but does not affect the actual uptake of rooms, there is a very good argument for it.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port]

My Lords, I will say a quick word because my noble friend Lord Snape has said what I wanted to say, and it is a rule of mine that I do not say something again if it has been said. However, the logic seems to be with this proposal. It seems to need a bit of imagination to implement something that has not yet been done. There may be a struggle with the Treasury and others, as it may cut across normal conventions, but it would help to raise a significant proportion of the funding shortfall. I therefore challenge the Minister, when he rises to reply to this debate, that if he is going to pour cold water on the proposal—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port]

That is the opposite stage instruction from:

“Exit, pursued by a bear”.


Never mind; that was too complicated.

To put it simply, if the Minister pours cold water on this, would he like to come up with one or two other proposals for how the local people can raise this £40 million?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am grateful for those contributions. The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and the right reverend Prelate are a difficult combination to face. The noble Lord was asking me to make a name for myself by opposing the Treasury and announcing a new tax from the Dispatch Box, while the right reverend Prelate said, “It’s only £1—that’s very little”. This is really a question of “Lead me not into temptation”, but I wonder how long that £1 would stay as £1.

The issue here relates to the actual amount of the budget for the Games and how it can be paid for. As we now know, there will be a £778 million investment, to be split approximately 75:25 between central government and Birmingham City Council and a number of its key partners. I was not quite clear what the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, meant about the funding shortfall; I understand that the city council’s contribution to the Games budget was considered by a meeting of the full council earlier this year. The spending based on that budget will be tightly monitored across all the Games partners to ensure control—an issue which I know the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, talked about at Second Reading. We are confident that the budget announced is sufficient to deliver a strong Games for the city but I absolutely agree with the points raised at Second Reading, and earlier this afternoon by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, saying that Parliament should be provided with more information regarding the Games budget. This will be forthcoming.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port]

I am grateful for this opportunity. I mentioned £40 million, as did my noble friend Lord Snape; the briefing papers that we received from Birmingham mentioned £40 million. It seems that when the local authorities calculate their 25%, they will be £40 million short of that. This provision is intended to bridge that gap.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I understand now. The 25% comes from Birmingham City Council and its partners; it also involves revenue raising in various ways so none of it is certain. However, my point remains that the city council is looking at different ways to do that and I will come on to that in a moment.

This is not a completely uncontroversial proposal. I do not want to go into the detailed arguments about the hotel levy today, but it is not quite as straightforward as some people may think. Tourism in this country pays a much higher rate of VAT than our competitors in Europe. In May, a report on tourism tariffs by the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Hospitality expressed reservations about the likelihood of tourism levies having a long-term, positive benefit on tourism infrastructure. The report concluded that:

“Further studies need to be commissioned on the economic impact and viability of a tourist tax”.


The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, suggested that this should be a pilot, which goes some way to answering that although it would be limited in scope. The noble Lord also mentioned the Scottish Government, who will consult this year on the principles of a locally determined tourist tax, prior to introducing legislation which would allow local authorities to apply such a tax. We will certainly be looking at the benefits of that.

I have to say that matters of taxation are for the Treasury to consider. Treasury Ministers have been in correspondence with Birmingham City Council regarding its options for meeting its required contribution to the Games. That is the right place for those discussions, not this Bill, which provides the framework for the successful operational delivery of the Games. The Government are aware that the city council is actively considering a number of options for local revenue raising, including within existing powers, and stand ready to look at the details of any proposals that the city council wishes to put forward.

I hope that is not cold water, though it may be lukewarm. I hope that noble Lords are reassured that the Government remain committed to working with the city council on its plans for delivering its required financial contribution to the Games. I would therefore be grateful if the noble Lord felt able to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port]

25: Clause 30, page 19, line 3, leave out subsection (3) and insert—
“(3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under—(a) section 12,(b) section 15, or(c) paragraph 16 of Schedule 2,may not be made unless a draft has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.(4) Any other statutory instrument containing regulations under this Act is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.”

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port]

My Lords, I have been most interested in hearing “person” taken to mean “body corporate”. I have long experience of textual criticism and exegesis, and that would be a long stretch. There is a shaking of the head; it will have to be explained to me.

In respect of this proposal, we are in the other three parts of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report, not the part already discussed. All I really need to say is that if it was “person” and “body corporate” in the part we have already discussed, it is “in the vicinity of” that is contentious here. I think I know what “in the vicinity of” means, but I can see that two people might have quite different understandings of what constituted “vicinity”, so it has been decided that the powers recommended are too broad. The report states that,

“we recommend that any exercise of powers under clause 12 should be subject to the affirmative procedure, unless the Secretary of State certifies that by reason of urgency the negative procedure should apply instead”.

The same goes for Clause 15, only this time it is “Games location trading”. Again, I think I know what “location” means, but that may not be what other people think it means; consequently, a similar conclusion is reached.

Finally, on paragraph 16 of Schedule 2, the committee’s report states:

“Given the wide scope of the powers, and the fact that they affect the determination of the rights of individuals to compensation”.


All I am doing is reading what other people have thought over and digested well. In line with all that thinking, I shall move the amendment and invite the consideration recommended in the wording of the proposal. I beg to move.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, this is a case of great minds thinking a somebody-else thought. I have an amendment in this group to which the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, has added his name and it was inspired by exactly the same desire for information and reports. Primarily, there is a need for regulations to be approved by the affirmative procedure. We have done something similar before, so why do we not do it now? If a precedent has been set, we should follow it. We are all in favour of this legislation going through and going through well, and I refer back to the arguments about making sure that people know what is going on. The affirmative procedure was appropriate when something very similar was done in the past, so let us use it again. The hour is getting late. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan—my noble friend in sport—wants to contribute. As he was on the committee, he might have more insight into this matter but, as far as I can see, there is an open and shut case here.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port]

My Lords, the Minister knows that that is precisely what I shall do. However, I will not do so without saying that, on this occasion, I have put forward an argument that was not dependent only on whatever degree of wisdom I might have attained; it posited itself on the brains and care of the extraordinary bunch of people who make up this Committee. I look forward to seeing the argument in writing; I have heard a compelling case made verbally. At this stage, I am happy to withdraw the amendment and look forward to the next instalment of this thrilling piece of drama.

Amendment 25 withdrawn.

Problem Gambling

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I am delighted to hear the Statement and thank the Minister for repeating it. I and others will welcome those who have made the commitments that were described in this Statement and recognise that it is indeed a step in the right direction.

I am just back from Birmingham, if I may start autobiographically, from the Methodist conference. Some 25 years ago I was the president of that conference, and I was installed in my office in Leeds town hall. It was the year that the National Lottery was launched, and I was launched into putting the Methodist position on the National Lottery almost from the time I left Leeds. I confessed to myself that it was useless to put what some noble Lords would recognise as a traditional Methodist position on gambling: it was here to stay, it was part of our culture, so where was the room for manoeuvre?

I remember going on television with my noble friend Lady Bakewell on a Sunday evening; I limited myself to two points, which I have stuck to ever since. First, the proceeds of the National Lottery should not be used to spend on programmes that were properly the responsibility of government—they would be extra, over and above. Secondly, since there was a proven percentage—I had the facts at my fingertips in those days—of those who gamble becoming problem gamblers, a levy should be imposed on the National Lottery to deal with the problem gamblers that were going to be produced by that industry. This was directed towards the National Lottery at that time, but why not impose it on all lotteries? Those were my two points 25 years ago; they remain my two points now.

The Statement is good, as far it goes, but we have to recognise that this voluntary levy is simply not producing the goods. My O-level maths, which is where I left the subject formally, in the year that King Uzziah died, suggests that the agreed percentage of the turnover of the gambling industry should produce something like £145 million a year. It produces £10 million. The voluntary agreement is not working. The Statement says that we should be prepared to recognise that what has been proposed is for now, but it will take a year to produce the necessary legislation to achieve the mandatory levy. Let us do what has to be done now, and do the legislation a year hence also. We can wait a year, but we cannot wait for things to happen until we come back and say, “Let’s do it”, because then it will be a year after that. It seems necessary for us to move inevitably towards a mandatory levy.

I know that these figures were given in the other place an hour or two ago, but they are worth repeating. SportPesa, which sponsors Everton, and Fun88, which sponsors Newcastle, gave £50 last year. Both are white labels of TGP Europe. Best Bets gave £5: I have just paid more than that for a taxi to get here. GFM Holdings Ltd gave a pound. What on earth would you get for £1 anywhere these days, even on the high street? Pounds shops are giving up on that one.

We have 430,000 gambling addicts, 50,000 of whom are children—it is just not acceptable. The mandatory levy is the step that we have to take, and I urge the Minister not to just echo his master’s voice from another place in suggesting that because it will take another year it is better to settle for what we have. It is necessary to take the first steps towards imposing a levy now, so that the National Health Service, which picks up the cost of dealing with problem gamblers, can perhaps have—even in a hypothecated way—the proceeds of such a mandatory levy to deal with the problem.

I trust that your Lordships will see this point of view, which makes a lucid and obvious case, and that the body language, if not the words, of the Minister shows that he agrees.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I am a member of your Lordships’ Social and Economic Impact of the Gambling Industry Committee.

It is, however, my membership of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Gambling Related Harm that has led me to meet the parents of a number of children who have committed suicide because of gambling. It has given me the opportunity to meet people with mental health problems who have done everything they can to exclude themselves from gambling websites but are still being bombarded with gambling advertisements and free bet offers. I have also met people who have lost thousands of pounds in a very short time because they have been using multiple credit cards.

For far too long, the gambling industry has failed to take responsibility for the harm that it is causing not only to individuals but families and communities. As the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, pointed out, far too many of the gambling companies are failing to contribute even the 0.1% of the gross gambling yield to the voluntary levy for research, education and treatment. This Statement is of course welcome. The commitment by the so-called “big five” is welcome and I congratulate all, in all parts of the House and elsewhere, including Ministers, who have managed to shame some—but not all—of the gambling companies into taking this action.

An increase from £10 million to £60 million for research, education and treatment is of course welcome, but we should put it into context. Just some of the £60 million will be used to help the approximately 430,000 people, including children, with gambling problems, when we know that only 2% of them are getting any form of treatment. That £60 million should be compared with the £40 billion annual turnover of the gambling companies, the nearly £1 billion of government cuts to our public health budget and the annual salary of the boss of just one gambling company: today we are welcoming £60 million, while Denise Coates, the head of Bet365, earned £265 million last year.

The £60 million is welcome but, as the Secretary of State admits, there is much more to be done, and we need to ensure that this is not a cynical ploy by the gambling companies to prevent the Government introducing further regulation. The Secretary of State says that he is not yet minded to introduce a compulsory levy. If we do not have one, how will the many companies that are not party to this deal, and which do not make an adequate contribution, do so? Surely the way forward is a compulsory levy.

Further, what more does the Minister believe needs to be done to prevent problem gambling in the first instance? Does he agree, for example, that we need to do more to ensure that individuals can afford to gamble at a particular level, and that we should ban the use of credit cards for gambling? Does he agree that we need a code of practice for advertising? The industry says that it is keen to have one but has so far failed to come up with the goods. What will the Government do to make sure that we have one?

Should we not also have a system of redress for individuals? I am sure the Minister is aware that, if an individual has a problem whereby, for example, they have self-excluded but are still bombarded with advertisements and therefore lose more money because they are tempted, they can go to the Gambling Commission and report it. The commission will take evidence from them and other such individuals—it may take action against the gambling company or even fine it, as has happened in the past—but there is no redress for the individual because the commission does not act as an ombudsman. At present, all someone can do is go to the gambling company and seek redress or take expensive legal action. Does the Minister agree that we need a proper redress scheme? Today’s Statement is a small step, but it is certainly not a giant leap.

Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Tuesday 25th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, people have sung the praises of Birmingham, and I add my voice to theirs in expressing delight that Birmingham will host the Commonwealth Games. A body of expertise has produced its own voices. The two old pros on the Benches over there, whose wisdom has been quite extraordinary, can challenge me at dawn whenever they wish. Behind me, a clutch of Brummies—and one almost-Brummie of 54 years—have added their feelings from a personal perspective about how this Bill and the Games will impact Birmingham.

I do not have those direct links, either with the sporting endeavour or the geography, except in one way. The little Welsh town that I come from, Burry Port, was turned into an industrial town because of its symbiotic relationship with Birmingham during the Industrial Revolution. We produced the finest refined copper and smelted silver in the United Kingdom, which was sent to Birmingham, where electromagnetic plating had been invented. It produced a gobsmacking, wonderful new invention that was sold all around the world and publicised largely at the Great Exhibition of 1851. Therefore, Birmingham and Birmingham philanthropy have contributed hugely to many of the significant buildings in Burry Port. Since others have got their oar in, I felt it legitimate to get mine in too.

The hidden factor in any lauding of Birmingham that we care to make is its population. The noble Baroness, Lady Burt, reminded us of its enormous diversity. It is as if the Commonwealth Games are coming home. There will be populations that identify immediately with the players, and the old adage that you can tell a real British person by who they cheer for at sport will be challenged enormously in the Commonwealth Games, by parts of the crowd supporting all kinds of people who remind them of places that they have long associations with.

I am a little perplexed. It should be a cinch. We have had the Glasgow and Manchester Games in fairly recent history, and of course the Olympics. I cannot think of the London Olympics without thinking of Tessa Jowell, who played such an important part in the planning and organising. I wanted to introduce her name at this stage as a tribute.

As I have listened to the debate, I have asked myself about the very worthwhile suggestions made from across the House. How much will appear on the face of the Bill and modify it, and how much will be what we want to happen but would not be appropriate to put in the Bill? If there is a body of material we want that represents a corpus of thinking and concern that perhaps is not appropriate for the Bill, how do we ensure that the bodies to which we commit these aspirations wrestle with them, deal with them, come up with solutions to our problems and keep in touch with us as we move forward with these deliberations? As I understand it, there is an organising committee, the Commonwealth Games Federation, the DCMS, and, as we have heard, perhaps a less than open stance on the part of Birmingham City Council. Therefore it is important that lines of communication are open, a point that has been made. The people to whom we confide various aspects of the concerns that we express—some directly legislative, others in a body of supporting material—must interplay and support each other, and in the end produce a totality that works for the best in terms of the outcomes that we all desire.

I tried very hard to keep track of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, speaking of Clauses 12, 15 and 24, and paragraph 15 of Schedule 2. I will have to read Hansard for most of it, but of course we want to know what things such as “in the vicinity of” mean. Those things must be given attention; they will cause the Minister endless sleepless nights.

On all this business about “What’s not in the Bill can wait”, the one word that springs from so many of the contributions to this debate has been “legacy”. We really have to think through what kind of outcomes we want and learn from what has happened in recent times. My noble friend Lord Hunt mentioned that as far as the Olympics are concerned the legacy has been tremendous but that the Games have not necessarily increased levels of sporting activity or, in housing, reached perhaps as broad a swathe of people as they should have. We want to learn from that; we want information about how the plans are evolving to ensure those sorts of outcomes.

Then there is the question of the well-being of the people. Will we be able to use this stimulus to the economy to generate the kind of interests and commitments on the part of trainers, mentors and people in the public sphere, as well as the population at large, so that we leave Birmingham after 2022 throbbing and thriving in the best way that we can imagine? Are there measures we can anticipate now that might be woven into the planning, so that these outcomes are maximised as we move forward? We will look for that.

I have heard in this debate for the first time the figure of £778 million; there are others, too. I would imagine that work has gone on until the last minute to provide these figures but there is a legitimate concern about how this money is organised. There was the suggestion of having one bank account. I am not sure about having one bank account—I am at Santander if anyone is interested—when it is really about how that money is spread across the various bodies that will spend it. How will they account for themselves and how do we plan those kind of overlaps of responsibility, so that people can get as clear a picture as is humanly possible at the end of it?

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Coe, that I remember reading a theology book about bereavement where somebody identified the stages of grief that people go through: there was denial, anger and bargaining before peace arrives. We have euphoria today because we are all happy; perhaps there will be panic when we get to Committee and persecution of the innocent on Report. When the Bill goes over to the Commons, there will be a comparison with the previous House and, at the end of the day, the glorification of the uninvolved. We will be able to absent ourselves from that category because we have all been very involved.

This is a great event for which we will have some sort of responsibility. There are questions about security and there is complexity in the financial considerations. The legacy thing keeps looming up. All these are to play for and if we get them right, because we have flagged up our concerns, then there is no reason why the Games in 2022 will not be the most successful yet.

Free TV Licences for Over-75s

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Tuesday 11th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I must express a declaration of interest, as recorded in the annals of the Registrar-General, since I was born in 1942. This was the first year that I might have benefited from this particular payout, and since I got there before my wife she changed the name on the television licence from hers to mine. If this is now withheld I will end up paying it, and I am a bit afraid of that.

It cannot be right, whatever terms were agreed between those renewing the charter and the BBC, that the BBC should be turned into a welfare agency. It is not its job. Despite the fact that it might trim back on some top executive salaries and the other remedial measures mentioned by the Minister, the amount of money lost will be trivial compared to the £725 million in question. The BBC already seems ready to act in good faith by making such payments available to licence-owning couples in residence if one of its members is on benefits of some kind. Will the Government think again about the decision that was made by the current editor of the Evening Standard, in collaboration in the coalition Government with the Liberal Democrats—

[Noble Lords]

No.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port]

They will have their moment to explain themselves. Will the Government look again at their responsibilities now that the BBC, using its independence, has taken its decision?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am very sorry to hear that this might cause marital disharmony in the noble Lord’s household. To be serious, this is not a payout, as he called it. This is taxpayers’ money which is going to support the BBC. This was decided between the BBC and the Government in 2015. That agreement took into account the fact that the BBC licence fee was fixed with inflationary increases for five years, which was the first time that had happened. The deal on that and the increases in salaries—I absolutely take his point that that will not approach the £745 million we are talking about at the moment—was made in full knowledge of what it would mean. It was also agreed that the Government would phase this in, so the DWP has contributed to the BBC for it for the past two years, but that was agreed then. That is why we are disappointed that the BBC has taken this decision. There are some potential benefits. I accept that not all noble Lords agreed at the time, but it was passed into law in the Digital Economy Act 2017. It is the BBC’s decision, because Parliament gave it that decision to make.

Brexit: Movement of People in the Cultural Sector (European Union Committee Report)

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Wednesday 15th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

Not yet, my Lords—let us not call it off until I have had my minute in the sun.

I concur with what has just been said about the continuing appositeness of the report, even though it has taken so long to be aired in this debate. It continues to have point and poignancy despite all the documentation and reports that have come between then and now—that needs to be emphasised again. The noble and embattled Lord the Minister, who now faces the concerns laid out so pungently by Members on all these Benches, will have to do his best to answer some very direct questions. We have been asking the questions for a long time. It is not the first time that even I, a rookie in these affairs, have stood here making these points and asking these questions, yet we still do not have a clear idea of how this part of our national economy, which represents an enormous percentage of what is earned for this country, will manage its future.

How could we expect differently? Almost all the Answers to the Written Questions gathered together at the end of the excellent briefing from the Library begin with a sentence that damns this whole process. It runs like this: “The Government is clear that free movement of people will end when the United Kingdom leaves the European Community”. If they begin in that way, any attempt to answer the particular Question seems to run into the sand right from the start. It is a fixed point, a red line, a determined position from which very little movement can be expected, yet it is in respect of a part of our national life that is about movement, development, unpredictability and glorying in spontaneity, colour and shape.

We are glad to have the report. Its questions—and they have been mentioned many times around the House—focus on uncertainty. The uncertainty which this sector of all sectors is faced with prohibits planning programmes and activities. In the gathering of information in the Library briefing, I looked at the ISM and Arts Council reports and noted for a start that they are so recent. Why do we have to wait for them, with their concerns about the uncertainty facing them, to produce the kind of evidence that should inject urgency into our debates? But that is what they have done.

I liked in particular the two case studies at the heart of those reports, not about country house music, which we heard mentioned earlier, nor indeed about the many organised festivals, but about the Hallé Orchestra and Sage Gateshead—nice, too, to get out of London when thinking about the arts and the cultural life of the country. Each of those case studies ends by stating that no preparations have been made in either case for a post-Brexit world. That does not mean that they are lacking in foresight, endeavour or energy, but that they do not know what they are responding to or preparing for. That is the uncertainty and I hope that the Minister will recognise the emphasis on that word “uncertainty” and have something to say about it when he rises.

Much has been said about visa requirements. I will say no more, but we must have a word too about flexible and usable visas for people who are travelling at short notice in the ways described. What provision will the Government make for people working in this way in this sector? Do the Government recognise that without such arrangements, it is a death knell for so much of what happens in the sector?

We have heard about social security, healthcare and so on, and I think there is enough clarity there, but we need some reassurance in those areas too. I was interested to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Jay, that the impact of what has been happening—or rather, what has not been happening—is already telling in the sector. There are already repercussions. We are already impoverished: bookings are down, and people are unready to make arrangements ahead of time. That too is a sad thing to say when we have been arguing this case again and again over the months and years that followed the referendum.

My noble friend Lord Parekh touched on something that has not been adequately mentioned: skills. People taken on in apprenticeship positions in order to acquire skills cannot qualify for the full apprenticeship scheme, because of the nature of the contracts and the way the work is done. I wonder whether we might consider a way for people to accumulate the necessary experience, by having a card which is stamped or something, to make it possible for people who learn skills in the sector to accumulate enough experience and qualification to fall within the terms of the apprenticeship scheme.

I hope that the Minister is going to speak about the £30,000 salary limit, because we have all recognised that it does not correspond at all to the reality of the levels of pay received by many people in the cultural sector. Incidentally, I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, who wanted us to remember certain definitions of culture. I remember that a Bishop of Liverpool, describing to his congregation what he thought culture was, said, “Culture, my friends, is what happens around here”. It was reported in the newspaper the next day that the Bishop of Liverpool had stated that “Culture happens in Liverpool”. I mention that because I think culture happens in an indirect way, and the work of this sector has repercussions when we encourage people to travel to European countries. When in Vienna, Salzburg or wherever, ordinary people on their ordinary holidays have their horizons widened and their sensibilities touched. I think we should see that culture is a people’s thing; it is not just high culture and it can be caught and taught, so we must think seriously about the freedom of movement of people going on their holidays and visiting the continent of Europe in due course.

I was so pleased to hear the noble Lord, Lord Jay, mention for a moment the Cinderella in all this—poetry, my preferred option as well. I also heard “The Walrus and the Carpenter” as we were talking about high culture earlier in the debate. I will end, as I contemplate Brexit and the departure from Europe, with words from nearer to where I come from. I wish I could raise the country to its true height and rise, as Milton put it, to,

“the height of this great argument …


And justify the ways of God to men”.

I would say to the nation, alert and listening:

“Do not go gentle into that good night.


Rage, rage against the dying of the light”.

Over to the Minister.