BBC and Public Service Broadcasting

Lord Foster of Bath Excerpts

Thursday 5th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Labour Party on choosing this timely topic and the noble Lord, Lord Young, on introducing a powerful, well-informed and, as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, called it, high-calibre debate.

The noble Lord, Lord Lilley, claimed that he was the only speaker on the government side here today. I am delighted that your Lordships’ House, on this occasion and on many others in the past, has given him a voice—even if the BBC does not want to do so. I associate myself with the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, and the noble Lord, Lord Birt, and consider that the BBC should look again at the way in which it has treated him. Like him, I am a supporter of the BBC—he claimed still to be so—but I am a critical friend of it. Neither he nor I have demurred—nor has anyone today—from the simple premise of the debate: that there is little doubt that the BBC and other public service broadcasters play a vital role in our economy and our cultural life.

Many examples have been given. The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, spoke about the educational role of the PSBs; 75% of school pupils, for instance, use BBC Bitesize. We have talked about research and development and job creation, but no one so far has mentioned its important role in exports of both programmes and formats. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Salisbury spoke about another important role—levelling up—which is relevant at the present time given the Prime Minister’s desire to see it. That is being done by the PSBs as more of their staff and programme spend are outside London.

Many noble Lords—including the noble Lords, Lord West of Spithead, Lord Young and Lord Haskel, the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty—have spoken about the important soft power of the PSBs helping in many ways, including, more importantly in the future, in international trade. The BBC is one of the top four most-recognised British brands internationally. It is known, as the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, put it, as the gold standard; or, as the noble Lord, Lord Monks, said, it is known for its widespread international regard and respect.

However, the biggest contribution that the PSBs make is to our extremely successful and growing creative industries, which are creating employment faster than any other sector. In passing, as it has not been mentioned so far, I ask the Minister—she will say how important the creative industries are; I know that it will be in her brief—to reflect on, if that is the case, why the Government fail to address the concerns of the creative industries, including on the apprenticeship levy, which is not suitable for their use, and the concerns that have been expressed about the post-Brexit immigration scheme that is now coming in and which is irrelevant to them. Also, as we will come on to, why do they not stop trying to cause damage to the BBC?

I recognise that the Government accept the crucial role of the PSB and support it. As I said, there is a great deal of data. For instance, the noble Lord, Lord Young, in talking about research and development, reminded us that for every £1 the BBC invests, we get a return of between £5 and £9. It is worth reflecting that the PSBs collectively are seeking to do more in all of those areas by commissioning more from independent production companies and providing even more support. It is therefore hardly surprising that many people who work in the creative industries have seen real benefit from the PSBs.

One interesting example I discovered yesterday is that, last year, the BBC received 16 BAFTAs and 16 Emmy Awards and, earlier this year, four Golden Globes, and every single one of the British winners of those awards had worked in the BBC at some time in the past. No wonder Philippa Childs said that

“it is the PSBs that are providing the training and skills that the likes of Netflix and others are then happily accepting.”

But, of all the PSBs, as has been pointed out by many, the biggest single investor into the creative industries is the BBC. It is the guarantor of the standards of the other PSBs, as noble Lords have mentioned.

It is worth reflecting—the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, pointed to this with his phrase “salami slicing”—that, since 2010, the BBC has already had to tighten its belt. Only yesterday, the Voice of the Listener & Viewer research was published, showing that, since 2010, the amount of money in real terms that the BBC has for the production of its products for viewers and listeners in the UK has gone down to 70% of what it was in 2010. Now it looks as though the situation is going to get worse.

I have had an opportunity to see an advance copy of an article by Professor Stephen Barnett, which is to be published shortly. It states:

“Not since the election of Margaret Thatcher in May 1979 has the future of the BBC been seriously threatened by a powerful and deeply hostile government with a massive majority intent on doing it serious damage.”


My noble friend Lord McNally described it in another form by saying that it was score-settling against a mortal enemy.

Professor Barnett goes on to say that the origins of this are clearly in some of the things that have happened in the past. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, for instance, reminded us of some of the quotations from the New Frontiers Foundation document in 2004 at the time when it was directed by Dominic Cummings. It is worth reminding the House of a couple of the examples she gave. The NFF said that

“the Right should be aiming for the end of the BBC in its current form”.

It went on:

“There are three structural things that the Right needs to happen … the undermining of the BBC’s credibility … the creation of a Fox News equivalent—


my noble friend Lord McNally warned us about that—and

“the end of the ban on TV political advertising”.

It was therefore hardly surprising that, with Dominic Cummings in tow, the Prime Minister went into Downing Street soon after the election and, as Professor Barnett says:

“Even before the Downing Street boxes were unpacked, the Prime Minister was announcing a ‘consultation’ on whether non-payment of the BBC licence fee should remain a criminal offence—despite a comprehensive, independent review ordered by David Cameron and published less than five years ago concluding that the current arrangements were fair and proportionate.”


I should point out to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, who was concerned about people being put in prison, that you can be put in prison for the non-payment of a civil fine as for the non-payment of a criminal fine.

Professor Barnett—I share his view—went on:

“This was the first shot by a government which knew well that decriminalisation would cost the BBC well in excess of £200 million while actually making life more difficult for poorer households which would simply be pursued with higher fines through the civil courts.”


Worse, we subsequently heard government sources saying that there should be consultation on the replacement of the licence fee with a subscription model, that the BBC should be reduced to a few TV stations, a couple of radio stations and a massively curtailed online presence, and that,

“the Prime Minister is firmly of the view that there needs to be serious reform. He is really strident on this.”

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert of Panteg, and many others that there are many things the BBC could do better—not least in diversity—but, as the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, said, it is childish to send a wrecking ball to the BBC. It is crazy to pray in aid the subscription model of, say, Netflix and Amazon. As the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, and others have already pointed out, given what you get from Netflix for £7.99 and what you get from the BBC’s range of output and services for £13 a month, the two do not compare. A simple figure worth reflecting on is that, last year, the BBC, along with the other PSBs, invested £2.6 billion in the UK to deliver 32,000 hours of original, home-grown content compared with only 210 hours of content provided by Netflix and Amazon Prime combined. There is a huge difference.

The noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, is right that many issues need to be debated but within the context of being supportive of our public sector broadcasters. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Salisbury said that the BBC should be cherished. Only today, the Secretary of State said that all the PSBs should be cherished. However, the evidence before us is that that is not the plan of the current Government. The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, said that we should all be alarmed; the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, said that we should be appalled. I ask the Minister a simple question: does she believe that the BBC is the mortal enemy, or does she believe, like many of us, that the BBC is the best broadcaster in the world and one of the best gifts this country has ever given to the world?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran]

I do not want to play “quote wars” with the noble Lord, but he will be aware that my right honourable friend made a speech on this. I have it here somewhere—I apologise, it is hiding in my pile of papers. This morning the Secretary of State confirmed our commitment to the BBC, and I am sure that the noble Lord has read that speech.

On a similar theme, the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, talked about an agenda to undermine the BBC. Obviously, the Secretary of State works closely with the Prime Minister on these issues, but the Government remain clear that it is for advisers to advise and for Ministers to decide. That is what we continue to do.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jay, and the noble Lord, Lord Monks, referred to ministerial appearances on the “Today” programme. Ministers talk to the public through many different channels, including the BBC. That has always been the case and will continue to be so.

Turning to the economy, public service broadcasting has proved to be by far the largest driver of the UK production sector, as we have heard. Each year, the PSB system invests around £2.6 billion in original programming, of which around £1 billion is spent outside London. The BBC alone spent approximately 94% of its £1.3 billion of content spend on first-run UK-originated programming, making it the single largest investor in British TV content.

As many noble Lords said, public service broadcasters sit at the very heart of the UK’s creative culture and industries, which are renowned worldwide. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, for the shameless plug for “Noughts and Crosses”—I commend it to your Lordships. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Salisbury, the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox of Newport, the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Chesterton and Lord Bragg, and my noble friend Lord Lilley noted the breadth of offering that the BBC gives us. Our public broadcasters produce world-class content that stimulates our interest in arts, science and history, and broadens our understanding of our own culture and the world around us. As the noble Lord, Lord Birt, said, it is the quality of that content which is so important —I hope I have caught his point accurately

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, talked about the BBC as a bastion of British culture around the globe. It reaches around 426 million viewers and listeners each week, and—as we heard—it is a trusted British brand that is invaluable for our soft power and influence.

But clearly the key issue is that times are changing. Improving technology and greater consumer choice mean that people are moving away from traditional ways of watching TV and towards streaming and on-demand services. Our audiences are being served by many different companies, which have been mentioned this afternoon. In this context, the PSBs must work even harder to make sure that all nations, regions and people of the UK are represented, both on and off screen.

Our public service broadcasters are best placed to create programming with British viewpoints and identities that meet both British audiences’ needs and global audiences’ appetites. They need to utilise and evolve their unique platform to help strengthen our shared cultural identity, and make sure that they work for all the UK audiences that they serve. In this changing landscape, both industry and government need to change to keep that which is so precious to many of us.

I turn now to the future of the licence fee, which was raised by many noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Young, Lord McNally, Lord Haskel and Lord Foster, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. Noble Lords will be aware that the current licence fee settlement is agreed until April 2022. That includes the licence fee rising by inflation each year. Negotiations for the next licence fee period, from April 2022, will take place in due course, but the Government are committed to maintaining the licence fee model for the duration of the 11-year charter period up to 2027.

[Lord Foster of Bath]

On that point, and very quickly, can the Minister confirm that, as the charter continues until 2027, the Government could change the quantum of the licence fee between 2022 and 2027? Can she assure us the Government have no plans to do that, and that they recognise that the BBC’s scope and remit should remain constant until 2027?

[Baroness Barran]

I am going to cover the noble Lord’s point in just a second. The Government are committed to ensuring that the BBC and all public service broadcasters adapt to the fast-changing market, keeping them at the heart of our world-class TV sector.

In terms of other options for funding, raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and my noble friend Lord Tugendhat, the former Secretary of State for the DCMS noted that the Government were open-minded about how the BBC would be funded in the future and said that this would require a great deal of further discussion and evidence from all sides before a decision was made.

I was asked about the mid-charter review—a matter touched on also by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. It will take place between 2022 and 2024. The BBC charter is clear that the mid-term review will focus on governance and regulatory arrangements and will not be able to consider mission or public purpose. I hope that that addresses that point.

My noble friend Lord Gilbert of Panteg and the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Warwick, asked about the transparency of the licence fee settlement and the potential introduction of a licence fee commission. The government response to the Lords Communications and Digital Committee report on public service broadcasting made it clear that we have no plans to introduce a licence fee commission. We believe that it remains appropriate to determine the level of the licence fee in discussion with the BBC. My noble friend asked whether we felt that greater transparency was important. We absolutely agree with that point and with the comments made by Margot James to my noble friend’s committee.

The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, talked about the importance of prudence and deliberation. Obviously, 2022 to 2027 is not the 100 years that he referred to, but I hope that it goes some small way towards reassuring noble Lords that we are at the beginning of a long conversation on these matters. My noble friend Lord Gilbert summarised three key questions: what we want the BBC to do; what it should cost; and how we should fund it. I absolutely hear noble Lords’ anxiety, which comes from their great experience, but surely the form of the funding should follow the function that will be agreed in discussions over the next few years.

A number of noble Lords talked about the importance of the independence of the BBC. I reiterate that the BBC is operationally and editorially independent of government. Government cannot and should not intervene in the BBC’s day-to-day operations.

My noble friend Lord Lilley, the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Kennedy and Lady Liddell, talked about impartiality. The BBC obviously has a duty under its royal charter to deliver impartial and accurate news, and it is not for the Government to make judgments about any perception of editorial bias.