The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)
My Lords, I start by echoing the comments of other noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Young, for securing this important debate on the role of the BBC and public service broadcasting in the UK’s economy and our creative culture. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, for his sympathy. The more noble Lords remarked on the quality of the debate, the more my knees began to shake. As for Andrew Neil, I confess that, during the election campaign, I had a dream that I had been rung up and asked to do the interview, so be careful what you wish for. We have had some extraordinarily well-informed, eloquent and passionate contributions this afternoon. I will do my best to respond to them, but if necessary I may have to follow up in writing if time does not permit.
I start—I hope that this language is not too strong—with some of the accusations that have been made about this Government’s attitude towards the BBC. Noble Lords used quite strong language. The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, talked about an unremitting vendetta and the noble Lord, Lord Foster, asked me to confirm that we do not see the BBC as a mortal enemy. I repeat what the Prime Minister said recently, as was echoed by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State: the BBC is a “cherished British institution” and a great source of national pride. Almost every noble Lord who contributed to this debate gave examples of why we should be so proud of the BBC, and why it is a cherished institution.
All our public service broadcasters play a vital role in not only our media ecology but our economy and, crucially, throughout our lives. The noble Lady, Baroness Bakewell—
Lord Birt
I welcome the Minister’s remarks, but perhaps she could help us understand something. Two weeks ago Tim Shipman, a most reliable and professional journalist, ran a piece on the front page of the Sunday Times about the BBC, sourced from No. 10. In it, the source said that the Government would “whack” the BBC, cut it back, scrap the licence fee, and appoint a new chair to sack the new DG if he or she was not to their liking. Are the Government repudiating that statement?
Baroness Barran
I do not want to play “quote wars” with the noble Lord, but he will be aware that my right honourable friend made a speech on this. I have it here somewhere—I apologise, it is hiding in my pile of papers. This morning the Secretary of State confirmed our commitment to the BBC, and I am sure that the noble Lord has read that speech.
On a similar theme, the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, talked about an agenda to undermine the BBC. Obviously, the Secretary of State works closely with the Prime Minister on these issues, but the Government remain clear that it is for advisers to advise and for Ministers to decide. That is what we continue to do.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jay, and the noble Lord, Lord Monks, referred to ministerial appearances on the “Today” programme. Ministers talk to the public through many different channels, including the BBC. That has always been the case and will continue to be so.
Turning to the economy, public service broadcasting has proved to be by far the largest driver of the UK production sector, as we have heard. Each year, the PSB system invests around £2.6 billion in original programming, of which around £1 billion is spent outside London. The BBC alone spent approximately 94% of its £1.3 billion of content spend on first-run UK-originated programming, making it the single largest investor in British TV content.
As many noble Lords said, public service broadcasters sit at the very heart of the UK’s creative culture and industries, which are renowned worldwide. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, for the shameless plug for “Noughts and Crosses”—I commend it to your Lordships. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Salisbury, the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox of Newport, the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Chesterton and Lord Bragg, and my noble friend Lord Lilley noted the breadth of offering that the BBC gives us. Our public broadcasters produce world-class content that stimulates our interest in arts, science and history, and broadens our understanding of our own culture and the world around us. As the noble Lord, Lord Birt, said, it is the quality of that content which is so important —I hope I have caught his point accurately
A number of noble Lords, including the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, talked about the BBC as a bastion of British culture around the globe. It reaches around 426 million viewers and listeners each week, and—as we heard—it is a trusted British brand that is invaluable for our soft power and influence.
But clearly the key issue is that times are changing. Improving technology and greater consumer choice mean that people are moving away from traditional ways of watching TV and towards streaming and on-demand services. Our audiences are being served by many different companies, which have been mentioned this afternoon. In this context, the PSBs must work even harder to make sure that all nations, regions and people of the UK are represented, both on and off screen.
Our public service broadcasters are best placed to create programming with British viewpoints and identities that meet both British audiences’ needs and global audiences’ appetites. They need to utilise and evolve their unique platform to help strengthen our shared cultural identity, and make sure that they work for all the UK audiences that they serve. In this changing landscape, both industry and government need to change to keep that which is so precious to many of us.
I turn now to the future of the licence fee, which was raised by many noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Young, Lord McNally, Lord Haskel and Lord Foster, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. Noble Lords will be aware that the current licence fee settlement is agreed until April 2022. That includes the licence fee rising by inflation each year. Negotiations for the next licence fee period, from April 2022, will take place in due course, but the Government are committed to maintaining the licence fee model for the duration of the 11-year charter period up to 2027.
Lord Foster of Bath
On that point, and very quickly, can the Minister confirm that, as the charter continues until 2027, the Government could change the quantum of the licence fee between 2022 and 2027? Can she assure us the Government have no plans to do that, and that they recognise that the BBC’s scope and remit should remain constant until 2027?
Baroness Barran
I am going to cover the noble Lord’s point in just a second. The Government are committed to ensuring that the BBC and all public service broadcasters adapt to the fast-changing market, keeping them at the heart of our world-class TV sector.
In terms of other options for funding, raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and my noble friend Lord Tugendhat, the former Secretary of State for the DCMS noted that the Government were open-minded about how the BBC would be funded in the future and said that this would require a great deal of further discussion and evidence from all sides before a decision was made.
I was asked about the mid-charter review—a matter touched on also by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. It will take place between 2022 and 2024. The BBC charter is clear that the mid-term review will focus on governance and regulatory arrangements and will not be able to consider mission or public purpose. I hope that that addresses that point.
My noble friend Lord Gilbert of Panteg and the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Warwick, asked about the transparency of the licence fee settlement and the potential introduction of a licence fee commission. The government response to the Lords Communications and Digital Committee report on public service broadcasting made it clear that we have no plans to introduce a licence fee commission. We believe that it remains appropriate to determine the level of the licence fee in discussion with the BBC. My noble friend asked whether we felt that greater transparency was important. We absolutely agree with that point and with the comments made by Margot James to my noble friend’s committee.
The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, talked about the importance of prudence and deliberation. Obviously, 2022 to 2027 is not the 100 years that he referred to, but I hope that it goes some small way towards reassuring noble Lords that we are at the beginning of a long conversation on these matters. My noble friend Lord Gilbert summarised three key questions: what we want the BBC to do; what it should cost; and how we should fund it. I absolutely hear noble Lords’ anxiety, which comes from their great experience, but surely the form of the funding should follow the function that will be agreed in discussions over the next few years.
A number of noble Lords talked about the importance of the independence of the BBC. I reiterate that the BBC is operationally and editorially independent of government. Government cannot and should not intervene in the BBC’s day-to-day operations.
My noble friend Lord Lilley, the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Kennedy and Lady Liddell, talked about impartiality. The BBC obviously has a duty under its royal charter to deliver impartial and accurate news, and it is not for the Government to make judgments about any perception of editorial bias.
Lord Lilley
Does my noble friend not think it odd that the BBC puts such emphasis on diversity of race, sex and sexuality but no emphasis on diversity of opinion? I am sad that today no noble Lords have addressed whether there is a single mindset that deals with certain issues such as immigration, climate change and Europe—what the French call “la pensée unique”—and which forbids other views to be expressed on the BBC.
Lord Lilley
It is not for the Government to put it right, but this House should be more critical than it has been today.
Baroness Barran
I thank my noble friend. I have now found the Secretary of State’s speech. As he knows, the Secretary of State said this morning that we need to ensure that there is
“genuine diversity of thought and experience”
and to be able to raise that in an open and balanced way. Indeed, in his memoirs, John Humphrys touched on some of the points about bias within the BBC. We do not have to agree with him but it is a valid view.
Lord Lea of Crondall
Is it not the case that the same John Humphrys in effect ran the “Today” programme for donkey’s years and is now writing for the Daily Mail? That is perhaps relevant to the idea that the BBC has bias.
Baroness Barran
I am not clear why those things are linked, but perhaps scarcity of time means that I should move on. The noble Lord, Lord Monks, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, highlighted the importance of supporting journalists who are harassed both in their work here, as was referenced in connection with Laura Kuenssberg, and internationally. We echo that.
The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asked about the over-75s concession, and commented on loneliness. I cannot help but feel a little defensive. As Minister for Loneliness, I reassure him that we take it extremely seriously.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
We are now into March. This scheme is supposed to come into operation in a couple of months, yet we do not know how it is going to operate, who is eligible or whether the data protection laws will come into it. The last time I raised this, the noble Baroness said that she was disappointed that the BBC had not taken the funding on board. What is happening in relation to sorting this out?
Baroness Barran
If he will forgive me, in the interests of time I will write to the noble Lord with some of the detail. He raised a point about data sharing and the over-75s concession. The BBC’s decision document sets out that the BBC will operate a self-verification model. Therefore, the issues that he has raised should not arise but I am happy to write to him in detail about this.
A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Judd, Lord Hennessy and Lord West, raised soft power—a matter that I have already touched on. The Government strongly support the BBC’s mission to bring high-quality and impartial news to audiences across the world. The noble Lord, Lord West, had done some clever maths on expenditure.
Lord Puttnam
I apologise to the noble Baroness and I do not want to delay the House but there is an elephant in the room and it needs to be shot. This morning the Secretary of State said that the BBC was
“an institution to be cherished.”
Words matter. I know what cherished means, as does the noble Baroness, but it is not in any way possible to square that with the supposedly informed comments that come out of No. 10. The noble Lord, Lord Birt, referred to the Shipman piece. Would she like to use this opportunity at the Dispatch Box to totally repudiate the continual comments about wishing to destroy the BBC that are claimed to emerge from No. 10?
Baroness Barran
I can reiterate with confidence what the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State have said, but I am sure that the noble Lord will understand that I cannot respond confidently about leaks to the newspapers; I can deal only with the facts before me. My noble friend has whispered in my ear that I have a minute or two more, and I would be grateful if I could go through the important points that other noble Lords have raised.
On soft power, the royal charter is clear that the BBC must spend at least £254 million a year on the World Service until 2022, and in 2017-18 that figure was £268 million.
Lord West of Spithead
BBC Monitoring is crucial if we are to understand these countries that are a real danger to us. Will that be covered as well?
Baroness Barran
I will write to the noble Lord to clarify any other points that remain unclear.
I want to take the last minute and a half to talk about the creative industries. My noble friend Lord Gilbert asked if the BBC and the public service broadcasters are considered as part of the Government’s industrial strategy, and that was also touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Foster. The Government continue to support the wider broadcasting landscape by having developed the creative industries sector deal, which came from the industrial strategy, and in 2018 the Government and industry agreed a landmark £150 million deal to promote the creative industries. The deal set out a number of measures, including rebalancing growth between London and the rest of the country. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, asked about the apprenticeship levy and we recognise that some employers in the creative industries experience challenges in using the apprenticeship levy to support their business, and we are working very closely with the sector to try to address this.
We have had some very passionate speeches and I want to try to close on a slightly more positive note and pick up what the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, said in talking about change as an opportunity for improvement. Change is not a choice in a landscape that is moving very rapidly, but we want to see it as an opportunity to build on and enhance the strengths of both the BBC and the creative industries. Both are success stories of the British economy and, as noble Lords have highlighted today, public service broadcasters have contributed to the success of the creative industries but have also benefited from that success. I have no doubt that in the next seven years there will be a very important debate continuing about how public service broadcasters should evolve in a rapidly changing broadcasting landscape, and that debate should and will ensure that both our public service broadcasters and our creative industries remain world-class.