Scotland Bill

Lord Field of Birkenhead Excerpts

Tuesday 21st June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

Of course, and there are regional variations within all the four nations. The point is that there are strong views on this issue. I am making the case for why it is difficult to address it in the Bill. Reforming the Barnett formula is an entirely separate issue from those we are considering in the Bill, and from the matters that the Calman commission looked at. As I said, the formula does not appear in any legislation as such, and there would be disadvantages in trying to come up with a legislative answer. However, I appreciate that this is an opportunity to debate the matter.

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Gauke]

I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will continue this debate.

[Mr Field]

Might the Minister tell the House whether he thinks that the Barnett formula is now fair? If it is not, when do the Government intend to do something about it?

[Mr Gauke]

The Government understand the concerns expressed about the devolved funding arrangements, but we have also made it clear that the priority now must be to reduce the deficit, and any change to the current system and Barnett formula must await the stabilisation of the public finances. The Bill does not rule out or rule in reform of the formula in the future, but we do not believe that now is the right time. A change in the Barnett formula is not the purpose of the Bill, and it would not be appropriate to legislate for it here. As I said, I look forward to this debate, as right hon. and hon. Members will clearly take the opportunity presented by the Bill to express their views on this particular point.

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[Iain Stewart]

If the hon. Gentleman has a little patience, I shall come to what I believe is the solution.

I fear that new clause 8 and the related amendments are a little hasty in dealing with this matter.

[Mr Frank Field]

What about the Union?

[Iain Stewart]

The Barnett formula has not been in operation for the duration of the Union and only since 1978, so it is a comparatively new beast.

Yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman was speaking in the debate on the Pensions Bill where one of the arguments against the changes the Government are proposing is that the time scale to allow people to adjust their behaviour should not be less than 10 years. A similar approach should be taken to funding; there should be a process of evolution, not revolution. If we rush too hastily into the argument on the basis of misinformation, we risk splitting the Union asunder.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) has to resume her seat when it is clear that the person who holds the floor, in this case Ann McKechin, is not giving way.

This is not a game, it is a debate, and it would be good if all Members in the Chamber behaved in a respectful way. The heckling is getting a little out of hand, and I am sure some Members would not like me to point out who is doing it at the moment. Perhaps we can return to the debate.

[Mr Frank Field]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Do you think it possible that by 10 o’clock, I might actually get the chance to speak to my amendment, which has already been dismissed by the Government and debated by other people?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

That is not within my gift, Mr Field, but let me say that I sincerely hope so.

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[Ann McKechin]

The supermarkets might well have supported minimum pricing because they would receive a good degree of financial benefit from it. However, some medical experts said that on the evidence, the price per unit would have to be a great deal higher than that proposed by the Scottish Government to have an impact. As I said, although the increase in the excise duty escalator, which the UK Labour Government introduced, has had an impact south of the border in reducing consumption, it has not had the same impact in Scotland. Price sensitivity seems to be different north and south of the border, and there are different patterns of consumption. The focus must be on cultural and social values as much as on simple economic values.

On that basis, there are considerable complexities in any such proposals. The Government’s proposals would have an adverse impact on the drinks industry, which has a substantial bearing on the Scottish economy, but the argument for them has not been made.

[Mr Frank Field]

I rise to move new clause 8 and the consequential amendment 23, which stand in my name and the names of my hon. Friends.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, who has waited very patiently for his opportunity to speak, but what he is doing at the moment is “speaking to” his amendments. He is not formally moving them, which would cause a few problems.

[Mr Field]

Whatever that means, I shall try to move on, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am grateful for that.

I wish to speak to new clause 8 and amendment 23, but I sense that I am interfering in a family row between different factions. As clearly as possible, I want to put the English case, which seems to be lacking in the debate.

This is the first time I have wanted to join in a debate on Scottish matters in the House. That is my fault, though, and I assure my hon. Friends that I will not let it happen again—I now wish to pursue Scottish matters whenever they arise. I have been struck today, listening to a Scottish debate for the first time, by how many of us—myself included, perhaps—failed to think through what devolution meant, and now we have almost hit an invisible brick wall past which we cannot get our arguments.

It seemed to me from observing the recent Scottish elections—obviously my sympathies lay with the party I have the honour to represent in Parliament—even from the language used by English politicians contributing to the Scottish debate that we had not thought through what the limited measure of devolution would mean. We got a pretty good hiding for our trouble on that score. I plead with the Labour Front-Bench team—this is meant as an encouragement, because I know that, as part of our policy review, they are thinking through what should necessarily follow from a defeat on the scale of the one we suffered at the last general election—not to go into the next general election without seriously thinking about the consequences of devolution, not just for Scotland but for the other parts of the United Kingdom, particularly England, where my seat is situated.

I have also been struck by the fact that although people try to mystify us by using various formulas and by saying, “What was given with one hand is taken by another”, I cannot answer, in the light of this debate and the work I have done, the charge put to me by a constituent of mine during the half-term break, when I visited the Scottish Parliament, which is a magnificent building—the extraordinary scale of the domestic architecture was incredibly grand. A constituent of mine greeted me as I went in and asked, “Why is it, Frank, that if I lived in Scotland, I would have free medicines, free long-term care and my children would go to university without paying the fees they pay in England?” Despite all the talk about grants and how we might review them, there is no reply yet to our English constituents on those points. If the explanation is not an unfair distribution of Exchequer grants, I want to know what we have in England that Scotland does not have that might pay for those extraordinary benefits.

[Mr MacNeil]

The right hon. Gentleman is making an interesting speech and has raised a fascinating point put to him by a constituent of his whom he met in the Scottish Parliament. The only immediate answer I can find to the question he has put to the House about the difference between politics north and south of the border is the existence of the SNP and what it contributes to politics in Scotland.

[Mr Field]

I said, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I was anxious to speak briefly so that other people might be able to contribute—after waiting many hours—so I will not go down that route. However, the hon. Gentleman knows that his is not the answer.

[Mr Russell Brown]

I want to put the record straight for my right hon. Friend and his constituents. He talks about free prescriptions in Scotland, which we now have, but I hasten to remind him that there was a period of two to three years when people south of the border with cancer-related problems got their medication free, while people in Scotland were paying for their prescriptions. This is about priorities. The Labour Government rightly made that decision, and it was just a shame that the Scottish Government did not follow suit at the time.

[Mr Field]

Much as I admire my hon. Friend, I obviously should not have given way, because he is distracting me from the argument that I wish to make, which is a simple one. I am not convinced of the basis for those differences, and neither are many of my constituents. I have affection for the way our different nations have been grouped into the United Kingdom, but I am anxious, because unless we start to face these questions and answer them soon a general sourness will enter into English politics, and we will not be able to judge where that sourness will lead us.

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[Pete Wishart]

The right hon. Gentleman is making a thoughtful speech and a fine contribution, but I am sure that when he talks to his constituents he will want to ensure that they have the correct facts about this argument. Will he at least acknowledge that there is a debate about relative spending between the rest of the United Kingdom and Scotland? Oxford Economics, for example, found that when unidentified spending is factored in, London and Northern Ireland receive more money than Scotland. Will he at least accept that there is an argument?

[Mr Field]

I might accept that there is an argument; my plea is that the information should be set out clearly for us, so that we can understand if there are differences and, if there are, establish a basis on which they can be defended. If I manage to conclude fairly quickly, I know that there are Members on the Government Benches who have written and spoken about the need for us to move expeditiously to a needs-based formula, although we all understand that if we did that the period in which we phased in the new formula would be crucial. I am not in favour of doing things that rough people up unnecessarily; timing is important.

[Mr Davidson]

Like the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), who spoke earlier, I think that these are important points. May I suggest to my right hon. Friend that there are two different aspects that he ought to be picking up? One concerns the allocation of money—to some extent I tried to address that when speaking to the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), because there are divisions in England as well—but the second is the choices made by different jurisdictions. The devolved Parliament in Scotland has clearly made decisions that are different and better than some of the things done in England. However, when it comes to waiting lists, services and education, it is also true that some things in England are better than in Scotland. Does my right hon. Friend, like me, welcome the fact that the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs and the National Audit Office are undertaking an evaluation of

“the progress made in various policy areas, comparing devolved Scotland to other jurisdictions”?

[Mr Field]

The answer to that, briefly, is yes.

Reference has been made to the incredibly interesting debate held in the other place last week. I was struck not only by the unanimity on the view that the status quo cannot hold but by the fact that the Minister replying to the debate found it terribly difficult to marshal a case against all those contributions.

[Mr MacNeil]

The right hon. Gentleman has mentioned a sourness creeping into politics, which everyone wants to avoid for a number of reasons. The hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) has just mentioned comparisons across the jurisdictions, and I hope that that would include jurisdictions outwith the UK. Might the right hon. Gentleman find a solution to his problem in full fiscal autonomy, with spending fully correlated to the ability to raise money? After all, I am sure that his constituents do not want to talk to him about the spending in the Isle of Man, Ireland, Norway or Denmark. They feel a grievance because they perceive an over-closeness in the relationship with Scotland, and that relationship would become healthier with a little more distance.

[Mr Field]

I shall answer that intervention and finish on that very point. We do not have the information that we require to argue these points, and the sourness could ensue when the Scottish Government hold their referendum on independence. I believe that a large force in this House will insist on other parts of the United Kingdom having a say in that referendum. Given the sourness that will result if we continue the debate in the way we have tonight and certainly before now, the irony would be that the SNP could well fail to carry the Scottish electorate with it on independence, while the English electorate would vote for it.

[Mr Reid]

The Bill and the Government’s new clauses will bring about a substantial increase in the taxation and borrowing powers available to the Scottish Parliament, taking the Scottish Parliament and the process of devolution substantial steps further forward. Since the Scottish Parliament was established in 1999, it has been held back by the fact that it has had very few tax-varying powers and that its role has been largely to spend money rather than to raise it. By giving it these extra powers, we will increase its democratic accountability.