Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons & 3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Monday 13th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

If the hon. Lady will bear with me, I intend to say something about that issue later in my comments.

Before I do so, I will comment on issues outside the Bill. The figures contained in the Bill do not secure the financial position for the long term, because real challenges remain: there is a health service in significant need of transformation; there are further steps to take to build the truly connected infrastructure that can boost growth and prosperity throughout Northern Ireland; and there are other steps, too. It was in recognition of those unique circumstances that the UK Government were prepared to make available additional financial support earlier this year, following the confidence and supply agreement between the Conservative party and the Democratic Unionist party. That agreement made it clear that we wanted to see that money made available to a restored Executive, which would decide on a cross-community basis how best to use the funding for the benefit of all in Northern Ireland. However, Northern Ireland’s unique circumstances cannot simply be ignored in the meantime, especially given the pressures that we have seen in the continued absence of an Executive.

Therefore, in addition to the Bill, this Government will make available the £50 million for addressing immediate health and education pressures in the agreement in this financial year. Those sums are not contained in this Bill, because they have not yet been voted on by Parliament. If the Northern Ireland Administration confirm that they wish to access them, they will be subject to the full authorisation of this House, as with all sums discharged from the UK Consolidated Fund, via the estimates process in the new year. From there they will be transferred, along with other sums forming part of the Northern Ireland block grant, into the Northern Ireland Consolidated Fund.

[Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I am very grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way and for announcing today the first instalment of the extra money coming to Northern Ireland as a result of the confidence and supply agreement. Some people said that it depended on the Executive, but, clearly, that was not the case. The people of Northern Ireland—Unionists and nationalists—will welcome the fact that extra money is going into the health service and into education, and indeed will eventually go into infrastructure and all the rest of it as a result of the deal that the DUP did with the Government. I warmly welcome what he has said. This is a very significant moment in the history of this Parliament and in terms of our relationship as it goes forward.

[James Brokenshire]

As the right hon. Gentleman will know, we recognise the particular case that has been made by Northern Ireland about the pressures in the health service that stem from the need for reform. The sums are still subject to a formal vote in the House, but that cannot be dealt with today. It can be dealt with only through the subsequent estimates process. In the absence of an Executive, it would be for the Northern Ireland civil service, bound by a range of equality and propriety duties, to make the decisions as to whether and how to take account of this funding for the benefit of the whole community. I say to the House that we want to see a restored Executive back in place and deciding on how the additional financial support can best be used for the benefit of the whole community. That remains the case now as much as ever. As a party, we believe in devolution. We want to see locally elected politicians taking the strategic decisions about the future direction of their local areas.

Let me come back to the point made by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon). In this context, I understand the disappointment that so many feel that, despite the election more than eight months ago, there remains no functioning Assembly in which all those elected may serve. I also know that, in turn, many in Northern Ireland are concerned that full salaries continue to be paid to Assembly Members despite the impasse. I understand that concern, but recognise, too, that many of those elected have been desperate to serve since March, and have continued to provide valuable constituency functions in the meantime. That is why I have been keen to seek independent advice on the subject in determining what actions may be appropriate. I can tell the House that Mr Trevor Reaney, a former Clerk of the Northern Ireland Assembly, has agreed to take on that task. He will provide an independent assessment of the case for action and the steps he would consider appropriate, and will report back to me by 15 December. This will not prejudge any particular course of action, not least as further steps would require primary legislation, but his advice will help to inform the best way to proceed.

[Nigel Dodds]

The Secretary of State has previously indicated—quite rightly—that this matter should be addressed, and we agree. But as far as we on these Benches are concerned, the matter of those who get paid and who do not come to Westminster to fulfil their obligations here also needs to be addressed. It is clear that, in announcing this look at Assembly Members, which is quite right, all hon. Members should focus on those who deliberately abstain, refuse to do their job in Parliament and get paid hundreds of thousands every year in back-up and parliamentary resources to spend on propaganda and political purposes. That, too, must be looked at and must end in tandem with what the Secretary of State is doing in relation to the Assembly.

[James Brokenshire]

This point has been raised on the Floor of the House before. The right hon. Gentleman makes a powerful presentation of his point. Equally, although I note his firm point, he has sought to advance this case in the past and knows that the matter is one for the House to determine.

I very much hope that the work I outlined—the recommendations or review that I will receive regarding MLA pay—will not be needed. That is because I still believe and hope that the parties can resolve their differences and an Executive can be formed that will come together and take the strategic decisions needed on health transformation, education reform and building a world-class infrastructure to deliver a better future in Northern Ireland. That is what the people of Northern Ireland voted for and want to see. We will continue to work with the parties and support them in their efforts to reach a resolution.

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[Owen Smith]

None of those proposals has been taken remotely seriously by our interlocutors in Brussels. None of them answers the question of how we avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland. None of them is currently thought to be a serious runner—[Interruption.] Well, I wait to see the Brexit negotiations reaching the conclusion that the Secretary of State is right and we do not need to consider some sort of special arrangement for Northern Ireland. At the moment, the country can see that no progress is being made on the matter, that the Government are employing gunboat diplomacy and that, unfortunately, we are not in a position to tell the people of Northern Ireland that they can remain safe and secure in the knowledge that a hard border will not replace the current porous border.

[Nigel Dodds]

Will the hon. Gentleman spell out his party’s Northern Ireland policy? In order to avoid the hard border that he talks about, does he agree with the EU and others that Northern Ireland should remain in the customs union and single market while the rest of the UK departs from them? Is that his policy?

[Owen Smith]

I agree with the EU that it is absolutely essential that we avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland—that is absolutely clear. I agree with the EU that the Government do not seem to have serious or realistic proposals for fixing the problem. I agree with the EU that one potential outcome that would solve the problem would be if Northern Ireland remained in the customs union and had some sort of special arrangement. That is a very interesting idea that we ought to consider.

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[Dr Murrison]

Yes, I really do. Although it is of course Sinn Féin’s choice not to take its seats here—one that, as a democrat, I regret. Nevertheless, we need to ensure that both communities are heard. The Assembly may be one way of doing that and it would at least give MLAs something to do.

The last time we discussed this matter, on 2 November, the hon. Member for Pontypridd was very keen for MLAs to continue to draw their pay and rations. I do not agree with that and the bulk of people in Northern Ireland do not agree with it either, but I welcome today’s announcement that Mr Trevor Reaney will be appointed to discuss the matter further with interested parties. He will come up with recommendations on how MLAs should be paid, given that this could go on for a considerable time. We try to restore faith in politics in Northern Ireland, as we do in the rest of the United Kingdom, and it is very difficult to see how that process is enhanced or advanced in the event that we are paying individuals largely for sitting at home. I accept that many of them will be working hard to try to represent and help their constituents as well as they possibly can; nevertheless, their primary role is to attend Stormont and represent those views there, and that is just not happening.

[Nigel Dodds]

The hon. Gentleman talks, from his esteemed position as Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, about the primary role of MLAs being to attend the Assembly, but that goes for Members of Parliament too. Their primary role is to attend Parliament, so I take it that he will apply the logic of his argument to public representatives who do not attend this place. They are elected to attend this place and they do not do their job. We have had this scandalous situation for many, many years. I presume people would not stand for many, many years of Assembly Members being in that position, so I look forward to hearing his view on that.

[Dr Murrison]

I very much agree with the right hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.] It is sort of a cop out, if he would like to see it that way, in that it is primarily a matter for the House and it is for the House to determine. I made my views on Sinn Féin not taking its seats in this place very, very clear. There should be no confusion about that. In my opinion, they are letting down those who elect them to do a job of work. They are clearly not doing it and people should draw their own conclusions. At the end of the day, however, it is a matter for the House. I hope he will be satisfied with that—I suspect he will not.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison). I am sure we will hear more from him in the coming weeks in his role as Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.

I would like to begin by adding my voice to those of other hon. Members who expressed outrage and condemnation at the events at the weekend—in particular the viable device left at the Omagh cenotaph, an appalling act which brought to mind the atrocious and despicable attack on the Enniskillen cenotaph 30 years ago almost to the day—and the other events referred to by the shadow Secretary of State. We think of the weekend and the remembrance of those who died giving their lives in the defence of freedom and liberty, and we think of the despicable act of terrorism in Omagh. At the same time, we think of the great side of Northern Ireland as displayed by the Northern Ireland football team and their supporters in Switzerland, who were great ambassadors for Northern Ireland. We saw the worst examples of activities by people in Northern Ireland and the best.

I think all of us in this House, whatever our party affiliation and whatever side of the House we sit on, commend those from Northern Ireland who went to Switzerland to follow the Northern Ireland football team. Indeed, we commend those fans from the Republic of Ireland who went out to Denmark. I was gratified to read about Northern Ireland fans flying out from Dublin airport and meeting Republic fans who were flying out to Denmark. The two sets of fans shook hands, wished each other well and applauded each other. That is an example of what is best about Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic, and we want to see more of it.

I thank the Secretary of State for his efforts. I know there has been criticism of him. There has been criticism of the Prime Minister, I have to say, from those on the DUP Benches. In my view, however, there has been very good engagement at all levels of Government. The Prime Minister has been to Northern Ireland more than once since she assumed office, and she has had a series of meetings and engagements here with us and others in this House, so I think it is wrong to portray this situation as the fault of the Government. DUP Members have spelled out how we got to this point in the process.

This is a very significant day in the history of the political process in recent years. There is no doubt about that. It is a day we did not want to see happen. We did not want the Northern Ireland budget to be passed at Westminster; we wanted it to be passed by the Northern Ireland Executive. We still do, but, as hon. Members have pointed out, this is the budget that the Sinn Féin Minister was supposed to bring forward before Christmas for consultation and to have the Assembly implement, and he point blank refused to do so. Remember, this was before the so-called crisis that emerged in the latter part of 2016, which led, ostensibly, according to Sinn Féin, to the collapse of the Executive. Clearly, there was something afoot long before that. That gives rise to some concern on our part about the true motives of Sinn Féin in collapsing the Executive in the first place and in refusing to set it up subsequently.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the failure of the Sinn Féin Finance Minister in the Assembly to set the budget over a year ago—as he rightly says, before the renewable heat incentive scandal broke and before the issue of an Irish language Act and LGBT rights brought down the Government in Stormont—proves that these seem to have been a series of fronts to bring down our Government for bogus reasons?

[Nigel Dodds]

Many people in Northern Ireland, not only Unionists but commentators, particularly in the Irish Republic, and leading members of political parties in the Irish Republic, are increasingly of the view not only that this was planned but that, as a result of the Brexit decision and the hard decisions that need to be made in government, and in advance of a possible general election in the Irish Republic next year, Sinn Féin simply wanted to opt out of government and was looking for any excuse to do so.

It is our sincere hope that that is not the case. As someone pointed out—possibly the shadow Secretary of State—the DUP was a devolutionist party long before it was fashionable among the majority of Unionists. I remember that the Ulster Unionist party, when it was represented in the House and represented the vast bulk of Unionists, had a strong integrationist wing and was very lukewarm about proposals in the mid-80s for devolution. It even went so far as to boycott the then Northern Ireland Assembly. The DUP remained in the Assembly because it believed in the principle that the people of Northern Ireland, nationalist and Unionist, should reach those decisions for themselves in Northern Ireland.

We remain committed to devolution and want to see it happen, and that is why we have set no red lines or preconditions for the formation of the Executive. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) pointed out, we have said that we are prepared to form an Executive, and my understanding is that the other parties eligible to form it also stand ready to do so immediately. The one party that refuses to do so is Sinn Féin. We are prepared to form an Executive and hold the talks in tandem. Our leader went even further and spelled out that she would accept a date being set on which the Executive would fall if the talks did not lead to a successful outcome.

We were not, then, asking Sinn Féin to take us on trust, hoping to get them into the talks and then to talk forever; we were saying, “Let’s get the Executive formed, let’s make the decisions on health and education, infrastructure, investment, housing and all the rest of it, let’s have the talks, but with the guarantee that if they do not go anywhere, it will not go on forever.” Within 20 minutes of that suggestion being proposed—a suggestion welcomed by the Irish Taoiseach and other members of minority parties in Northern Ireland—it was rejected out of hand by Sinn Féin, in our view because they do not want a way forward except on the hardest republican lines.

[Sir Hugo Swire]

If my right hon. Friend’s thesis is right and Sinn Féin has no desire to return to power sharing this side of a possible election in the Republic, is he actually saying that there is no prospect of the Executive being reformed until at least the other side of that election?

[Nigel Dodds]

I am saying that many people believe that. I am told by Sinn Féin leaders—we hear it constantly —that they do not subscribe to that view and that they want devolution up and running. I am simply pointing out that there have been opportunities in the last 10 months to move things forward in a sensible way but that they have not been taken by Sinn Féin, which makes some of us doubt the sincerity of its words. I hope that the analysis of others I have quoted is proved wrong. I remain to be convinced of the truth of the matter.

[Bob Stewart]

My personal view is that Sinn Féin does not give a damn and wants to destroy the entire concept of devolved power and that its long-term aim is the destruction of Government in Northern Ireland and unification. That is what it has always wanted, and that is its plan.

[Nigel Dodds]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but I have to say that the last 10 years, during which time the DUP has been in government, along with Sinn Féin and other parties in Northern Ireland, have been a period of great progress. Good things have been done for Northern Ireland. It now has the second highest level of foreign direct investment in the UK, outside London and the south-east, and we have seen big increases in the number of tourists coming to Northern Ireland and in investment from that source. There are opportunities to move Northern Ireland forward, and I hope that we can get devolved government up and running again in partnership with Sinn Féin and other parties in Northern Ireland, but we have to take cognisance of where we are. We have to take sensible, practical measures in the meantime to ensure that Northern Ireland Departments do not run out of money, which is why I warmly welcome what the Secretary of State has done today and the way he has spelled it out. The fact is that unless we take this measure, we will not have the money to maintain our hospitals, schools and roads.

[Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)]

One measure still available to the Secretary of State is to call another election. What would the right hon. Gentleman’s view on that be, should the impasse continue?

[Nigel Dodds]

The hon. Lady raises an interesting point. As things stand—under current legislation—the Secretary of State is under a legal obligation to call an election. He does not have to call it immediately, but the Northern Ireland Executive cannot legally be restored, as things stand, unless new primary legislation is introduced, and, in fact, there is an obligation to consider another election. The question arises, of course, as to whether another election would change anything or improve the prospects of an agreement.

In the June general election, our party received the highest vote of any single party in Northern Ireland since 1985, so we do not fear another election. We do not fear another general election here either. We are probably the only party in the House that can confidently say, if there was a general election tomorrow, that it would have no difficulties with the result. [Interruption.] Labour Members, from a sedentary position, mention a possible deal. I vividly remember the conversations with the Labour party in 2010 and 2015—it is interesting to recall all that. That said, we do not want a general election, and we do not necessarily expect an Assembly election to change much in Northern Ireland. The main focus has to be on getting the Assembly and the Executive up and running as quickly as possible.

[Lady Hermon]

I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman could just clarify an interesting point: he and his colleagues, particularly his party leader, have detected within Sinn Féin some disagreement between the party president, Gerry Adams, sitting as a Teachta Dála in the Republic, and the leader in Northern Ireland, Michelle O’Neill. Are her decisions being repeatedly overridden by the party president?

[Nigel Dodds]

The hon. Lady raises an interesting question. Certainly, the Irish Prime Minister has had something to say on that in recent weeks and has accused Gerry Adams of doing exactly what she implies, although it remains a dubious proposition in my view. Given that Gerry Adams appointed the Sinn Féin leader in Northern Ireland unilaterally—there was no election, not even among the Sinn Féin elected representatives—to ensure that his voice was heard, it is questionable whether there is any independence there or any diverse view between them and within Sinn Féin about the way forward.

I know that others want to speak, and I will end my speech shortly, but let me say this. When we describe the Bill as a move towards direct rule, we should remember that we experienced a form of direct rule intervention not so long ago, in the context of welfare reform. The House of Commons has control, powers and authority over welfare policy and legislation in Northern Ireland until the end of this year, and that is a policy to which Sinn Féin agreed. When people hear Sinn Féin rail against direct rule nowadays, they should remember that, as part of the Stormont House agreement, Sinn Féin agreed that welfare policy should be transferred back to Westminster. Why was that? Because Sinn Féin did not want to make the hard decisions on welfare that Assembly membership required them to make; they preferred others to make those decisions for them. We hear people talking about the downsides of direct rule and saying that it is a terrible, backward step, but in the case of some issues they are quite happy to pass the powers to Westminster.

I concur entirely with those who have said that the current semi-direct rule cannot be sustained for a lengthy period. I think there is no real dispute about that. We must have Ministers, because Ministers prioritise and Ministers allocate, but this budget does not solve the problem of who is prioritising and who is allocating. At some point very soon we will need Ministers, but that does not mean that we should give up on the negotiations, the talks, and the efforts to get devolution up and running. We will continue to do that, and we will play our full part in it. It would be a travesty, and a big mistake, to allow Northern Ireland to continue in a limbo in which decisions cannot be made. Reference has already been made to the historical investigations inquiry, and community groups and others come to me all the time wanting guidance and certainty about future funding. It is unfair and wrong for people not to be able to have some certainty.

In that context, this House of Parliament must be the place where decisions are made and where Ministers will be accountable. Of course there is a role for the Irish Republic’s Government in respect of strand 2 and strand 3 issues. According to the fundamental principles of the political process that have existed from the outset, strand 1 issues—internal Northern Ireland affairs—are a matter for the United Kingdom Government and the parties in Northern Ireland alone. Strand 2 issues—north-south issues—are matters for discussion between representatives in Northern Ireland and those in the Republic, and strand 3 issues are matters for discussion between the Irish and British Governments. The principles of that three-strand approach must and will be maintained. There will be no role for the Irish Republic in the internal affairs of Northern Ireland in the future. That is enshrined in the Belfast agreement, under the principle of consent.

We look forward to this budget allowing the Departments in Northern Ireland to spend the money that it is necessary for them to spend over the coming weeks and months. We also look forward to working with the Government and continuing to engage with the other parties, particularly Sinn Féin, to try to get devolution up and running as quickly as we possibly can.