Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Clarke of Nottingham and John McDonnell

Tuesday 17th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Helen Goodman]

rose—

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Clarke]

Let me move on, because I am giving way far too much and taking a great deal of time.

Lords amendment 170 sounds like an innocuous measure, but it would open up legal aid to cover the costs of expert reports in all the cases that currently are funded by CFAs or no win, no fee arrangements. It would allow lawyers to apply for legal aid to cover the expert report in any case where a client, of any age, was financially eligible, and to still get their success fee in respect of their other legal costs. That would transfer all the risk in a no win, no fee case from the solicitors and insurers to the legal aid fund and the taxpayer. That would be unfair to the taxpayer and would result in a significant expansion of the legal aid scheme.

I have covered with as much care as I can these particularly sensitive areas—

[John McDonnell]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Clarke]

I really must not, because I have taken well over an hour, although I have given way countless times.

In my opinion, the Government have taken a consistent and principled approach to reforming the scope of legal aid.

[John McDonnell]

I just want to clarify one point.

[Mr Clarke]

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has been in the Chamber for very long during this debate. [Hon. Members: “Yes he has.”] All right; I will give way one last time. I hope that I have deterred anybody else who wants to get me to give way.

[John McDonnell]

I would not have sought to intervene if I had not been here from the beginning of the debate. I have been here the whole time.

I want to get clarity on one point in relation to children. The Children’s Society and the Refugee Children’s Consortium estimate that there are about 2,500 under-18s who will not gain support in relation to immigration matters. My borough deals with more unaccompanied child immigrants than any other in the country. When this matter was raised before, the Secretary of State said that those are uncomplicated cases and that such children can receive advice elsewhere. That has been interpreted as meaning that social workers are able to give that advice. However, social workers are not registered in that way under existing legislation, so there is a conflict between the proposals and the existing legislation that needs to be resolved; otherwise local authorities will be in not only financial difficulties but legal difficulties.

[Mr Clarke]

Immigration cases involving unaccompanied children who turn up at airports and ports are very difficult. The vast majority of them, as far as the legal issues are concerned, are dealt with as asylum cases.

[John McDonnell]

Not all, though.

[Mr Clarke]

No, not all of them, but the vast majority. Once such a case becomes an application for asylum, legal aid is available. I am surprised by the figures that have been given for the cases that do not eventually wind up getting legal aid in that way. The problems posed by such cases, when a child gets off an aeroplane unescorted, go far beyond the legal ones. The Home Office is discussing with local authorities how to improve the response to such children. However, I am not satisfied that that category of children can be given access to legal aid for other claims of a legal kind, which I cannot visualise straight away, that might arise. The vast majority of those cases quickly turn into asylum applications and will therefore get legal aid.

I hope that the House is persuaded that the Government have taken a consistent and principled approach to reforming the scope of legal aid. No one looks to touch this area of the justice system lightly, but change is unavoidable if we are to protect access to justice and ensure that the system is affordable. On domestic violence, children, clinical negligence and welfare benefits we have sought to ensure that scarce resources are targeted where they matter most and where alternative funding or representation are unavailable. It is not easy to get that balance right. In the light of the principles that I set out at the start of my speech, I think that we have got the balance about right with the amendments that we have accepted and those that we oppose.

I believe the Government have been particularly responsive on all the issues. We knew perfectly well that when cutting back on this country’s legal aid expenditure, we ran the risk of damaging our system of justice if we got it wrong. We have made the countless moves that I have listed since we first produced the Bill however many months ago, in response to debate in both Houses. I am grateful to the Commons and the Lords for what they have done, and I hope that I have eventually put forward clearly the Government’s thoughts on the Lords amendments and on our amendments in lieu. I commend our position to the House.

Prisons Competition

Debate between Lord Clarke of Nottingham and John McDonnell

Thursday 31st March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clarke]

We are out to consultation at the moment on the Green Paper on sentencing in general and we floated in that the prospect, about which my hon. Friend rightly asks, of having a regular programme of competitive tendering throughout the prison system so that we can revisit quality and cost, in an organised way, gradually over the years. We have not finalised the form, but we will come back in due course once we have finished our consultations and responded, and we will answer his question about exactly what we want to do on that front. Probation trusts are equally involved, I hope, in the development of the payment by results policy. We are as anxious to see public sector bodies involved as private sector bodies. The best of the probation trusts seem to me, in my contact with them, to be quite enthusiastic about becoming involved in such a contracting process.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State may consider that privatisation is no longer controversial within this House across certain parties, but it is deeply controversial among Prison Officers Association members. He should meet the POA as a matter of urgency, and should look well beyond TUPE for the protection of staff who are currently being made vulnerable by privatisation; otherwise I believe that there will be industrial conflict.

[Mr Clarke]

I have every respect for the hon. Gentleman’s opinions, in which he has always been consistent. He has always been an articulate advocate, and I almost welcome him as a voice from the past. I realise that the POA is rather stuck in its traditional attitudes towards this kind of thing, but I really hope that it will reflect on what is almost a universal view in this House that we are moving on to a proper, fair, competitive basis for deciding how best to run prisons and at what cost, without being so obsessed about whether they are private sector or the public sector. Of course, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt) and I will continue our close contact with the POA. We have had to have contingency plans in case anyone is so foolish as to start industrial action—but it is illegal to take industrial action. The sensible thing for people to do is to look at the tendering process and, if they are in the public sector, decide how their prisons can achieve a better score in future. They have won one this time, but it is up to them to put in the best bids as we develop the policy.