International Headquarters and Defence Organisations (Designation and Privileges) Order 2017

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts

Tuesday 7th November 2017 Lords Chamber

I was grateful for the comments from the noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Touhig, earlier in the year on this instrument. In the light of these, the MoD amended the memorandum to reflect that the SI was essentially NATO business that did not directly connect with the EU. I will be happy to try to answer questions that your Lordships might have, and in the meantime, I beg to move.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I am sure the House is grateful to the noble Earl for his very lucid setting out of the statutory provisions that are engaged here. Without the help of the House of Lords Library, I still managed to chart a rather uncertain course through the legislation. I wonder whether it is not now time for a review, or perhaps a revisal, so as to bring together, in one statute, the various provisions to which the noble Earl referred.

I make no challenge to anything that the noble Earl has said in support of this, although there is one article in the order which he may be in a position to answer some questions about. In Article 5, the immunities which are otherwise conferred are subject to the exception of,

“the seizure of any article connected with an offence; or … the seizure of any article under the laws relating to customs or excise”.

I can understand the purpose behind these exceptions, but I am interested to know—it may not be possible to answer this off the top of the head—just how often these exceptions have been called upon.

The issue of NATO is one which we debate as part of wider consideration of defence. I wonder whether it is not now necessary to have a full-scale debate on NATO, not least because of the potential consequences which there may be for that organisation as a result of the decision to leave the European Union. The United Kingdom, of course, is not leaving NATO, but it seems to me inevitable that there may be some consequences—political, perhaps, if anything—from that decision.

As the noble Earl will understand, some have taken the opportunity of the result of the referendum in this country to reopen the argument in favour of a European army. I will say in parenthesis that I have been told by some who voted to leave that they did so because of the possibility of a European army—but of course by the very act of leaving, we have robbed ourselves of the veto which we could undoubtedly have imposed in relation to that. I take the very strong view, fervent remainer though I may be, that the creation of a European army would be wholly inappropriate and have damaging consequences for the defence of the whole of the north Atlantic area, in particular for those countries in Europe that apparently have such enthusiasm for it.

I did a little research on this. As long ago as 2008, Madeleine Albright, who was then the Secretary of State in the United States, during a discussion about the extent to which there could be a more independent security and defence policy for the European Union, drew attention to what came to be called the three Ds: delinking, discrimination and duplication. Her argument was very strongly in favour of the fact that what was then being proposed could well have the consequence of reducing the essential commitment to NATO, from which we all derive strength and support, by the United States.

At the Warsaw summit, NATO resolved that there should be much closer co-operation with the European Union, but of course co-operation is rather different from the notion of establishing separate structures, separate command and control and, perhaps most significantly in this context, a separate area of expenditure by European Union countries on defence, thereby taking away expenditure necessary to achieve the 2% target, which was of course established at the summit held at Celtic Manor. I have little doubt whatever about the importance of continuing the argument against a European army.

I finish by saying that the enhanced forward deployment to which the noble Earl referred is an important illustration of the fact that Baltic countries in particular can look to NATO for the kind of support which they feel it necessary to ask for in the light of what one might describe as the more expansionist attitudes of Mr Putin and Russia. It is no secret that Mr Putin would wish to destabilise NATO. That seems to be the strongest possible argument for its continuance.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I feel I must apologise to the House because, amazingly enough, I did not come equipped today to discuss Brexit, European armies, NATO in general, the 2% target, Russia, Putin or anybody else. But since we are making general points, I would point out that the Labour Party does support NATO—indeed, we are proud to have actually created it.

I have taken rather the opposite point of view. Given the constitutional niceties of this House, even to suggest that one is going to oppose an affirmative resolution produces a constitutional crisis that rocks the whole building. Whenever I stand up at the Dispatch Box, it is because I have drawn the short straw because I have the SI to do. I spend some time working out what to do to make it interesting. Sometimes you expose the Government’s poor performance, as we did last night, or point out that the order is not going to work, take a swipe at the primary legislation, ask some clarifying questions or ask that clever question that rocks the Minister back on his heels and sends him scrambling for the Box. On this occasion, however, despite the considerable efforts of my researcher and myself, I have to report that we have no questions and the Opposition are content that the order should be approved.

Armed Forces: Inquiries

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts

Wednesday 25th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am very sorry to hear my noble friend’s view on that matter. As I have said, it is an issue of great regret that service personnel and veterans have been subject to repeated inquiries. As my original Answer showed, if UK troops are deployed on overseas operations in the future, we will ensure that the Armed Forces are resourced properly to investigate any allegations at that time, rather than be subject to a slew of retrospective allegations, which frankly have been very difficult to get to the bottom of.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, this is a sensitive issue and, if I may say so, the noble Earl has struck a very fine balance in the competing interests, but I remind him that prosecution has to be based not just on probable cause but on public interest. It is at least arguable that it is not in the public interest for people over 70 to be prosecuted in relation to events that took place a long time ago. However, the question I really want to direct to him is about public inquiries. The frequency of a public inquiry can be debilitating for individuals, but the length of one can be equally debilitating. Is it not now time to accept as a template the Leveson inquiry: always judge-led, with a clear and unambiguous remit and with a fixed timetable?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I take it that the noble Lord is referring principally to the situation that applies to veterans of the Northern Ireland campaign, and I have a lot of sympathy with what he says. However, it is the Government’s policy to adhere to the Stormont House agreement of December 2014, under which some legacy institutions will be set up. Those institutions will be under a duty to ensure that our veterans are not unfairly treated or disproportionately investigated, and will reflect that 90% of deaths in the Troubles were caused by terrorists, rather than members of the Armed Forces. The next stage in that process is to consult publicly, which we will do before long.

Genocide

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts

Monday 26th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

The noble Lord will be aware that the United Kingdom Government launched an initiative to address the atrocities being committed by Daesh. That initiative has enjoyed international support. In so far as Iraq and the activities of Daesh are concerned, there is a dual process of gathering evidence, investigating and then referring the information to the International Criminal Court. As I said in response to an earlier question, what the International Criminal Court then does and the decision it takes in relation to prosecution rest with it.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the International Criminal Court is constituted by the Rome statute? Is she also aware that there are reports that a number of countries that are members of the Commonwealth—South Africa, Kenya and Uganda—are considering withdrawing from that statute? In those circumstances, would it be appropriate to put the issue of support for the International Criminal Court on the agenda for the next meeting of the Commonwealth Heads of Government?

[Baroness Goldie]

It was the case that some rather alarming headlines appeared about the threat of member states withdrawing from the ICC. In fact, that distilled into withdrawals by South Africa, Burundi and Gambia. Interestingly, Gambia rescinded its decision and remains a member state, and I understand that the situation is under consideration in South Africa at the moment. So the threat of withdrawal did not prove to be as alarming as initially contemplated. I think that I am correct in saying that there are 124 member states of the International Criminal Court—so it is a very significant body and universally supported.