Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 22nd November 2021 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, for tabling these amendments and for the discussions so far. I will not comment at length, given the discussions that we had last week about ARIA’s research focus and relationship with other research organisations, but I will respond to noble Lords who have spoken today.

To take up the point of my noble friend Lord Willetts, ARIA needs to be as complementary as possible in its functions to other research and innovation organisations. This of course includes UKRI, which retains its system-wide responsibilities and also funds high-risk research. However, ARIA’s fit within this system goes beyond just having regard to the work of other players; it is about actively engaging and making the most of the system. We are currently looking to recruit a brilliant CEO who will form a collaborative and open network of partners right across the UK’s R&D landscape as part of embedding ARIA as a high-functioning organisation for years to come.

Amendment 49 is on a new subject, ARIA’s title. I agree that the focus should be on what the agency does, but let me say a few words about why we decided to call it the Advanced Research and Invention Agency. The noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, will be aware that ARPA was the title of the US agency originally established in 1958; ARPA subsequently evolved into DARPA and the model was then developed, as my noble friend Lord Vaizey reminded us, in forming ARPA-E, IARPA and ARPA-H—somebody has been having great fun with the acronyms. It is also the inspiration for the agency that we are discussing today.

However, I stress that ARPA is only the inspiration. ARIA will learn many lessons from the original ARPA, but it is not a carbon copy. It takes into account what we think to be the distinct UK R&D landscape. As we have discussed, given the levers that the Government already have to gear R&D funding to national and strategic priorities, one key departure is that we are not mandating a specific area, such as defence, that ARIA must focus on. There may be other areas and ways in which ARIA’s incoming leadership wish to adapt the original ARPA model, given what we think is a fairly unique context. Calling this new agency ARPA could give a somewhat confusing message about its functions and easily result in it being mistaken for a purely defence-focused research funding agency. I strongly believe that ARIA must have its own brand and identity; that will be integral and crucial to its success.

I also believe that “invention” is a useful element of the agency’s title, which has been well received during the passage of the Bill in the other place and, so far, in our House, as well as by many in the research community. Together, “advanced”, “research” and “invention” signify that ARIA will be focused on high-risk research and clear, soluble challenges in the development and deployment of what we hope will be breakthrough technology. I completely recognise that the agency could be called many things—we could probably get 20 or 30 different examples in this Room alone—but I assure noble Lords that we have thought carefully about all the many options and come to the position, across government and with contributions from all departments, that the Advanced Research and Invention Agency is a clear, bold title, which clearly signifies what we want the agency to do and how we want its functions to evolve. With that explanation, I hope that the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, will not feel the need to press his amendments.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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The noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, interestingly enough, did not speak to her Amendment 42, but it is all of a piece. I do not think that I need to say much, except to ask why we should not treat ARIA in line with other public bodies. The Government have had to perform contortions of statutory drafting to exclude ARIA. We have all sorts of weird and wonderful amendments coming later, which seems extraordinary. Why on earth should not ARIA be subject to exactly the same procurement regime as other public bodies? The principle that we have talked about on the FoIA is exactly the same as it is in regard to procurement.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I start with Amendment 24 from the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, Amendment 32A from the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, and Amendment 39 from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, which all deal with the Freedom of Information Act. As I said at Second Reading, our decision not to subject ARIA to FoI was made after much consideration. As on so many of these things, I find myself in full agreement with my noble friend Lady Noakes and I thank my noble friend Lord Patten for his support during the Second Reading debate.

I was hoping that some of my noble friends who have been in government would comment on how they found the Freedom of Information Act in government. From my point of view, it is a truly malign piece of legislation. At the risk of trashing his reputation even further in the Labour Party, I agree with Tony Blair on this matter. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that all information on government contracts et cetera should be published, even if it is embarrassing for the Government. However, I think he will find that all the contracts to which he refers were not released under freedom of information but under normal government contract transparency.

In my experience, not much is ever released under freedom of information that causes any problems for government; it is normally stuff that is released in the normal transparency of contract negotiations and government transparency returns. I am fully in favour of decisions, and information about them, being released, but I fail to see how the processology of government benefits at all from FoI disclosures. I find that people just modify their behaviour and communication to take account of the fact that private conversations may be released in the future. I genuinely do not think that it achieves anything at all, but that is my personal perspective and not necessarily a matter for this debate. It was also new to me to discover at Second Reading that the US charges a fee for freedom of information disclosures. I think that is an excellent idea, even if it is only a nominal amount to get rid of some of the somewhat spurious fishing expeditions that many go people in for. Anyway, that is a separate matter for different discussions.

In contrast to UKRI, which comprises the seven research councils, ARIA is a new, unique organisation that we anticipate will attract a disproportionate number of FoI requests for its size. On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, I would reiterate, as I did at Second Reading, that comparisons between ARIA and DARPA do not hold, precisely because, as I said, DARPA adds a standard fee to the requester, which is not comparable to the situation in the UK, although we should certainly consider it.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, if I may have the privilege of intervening—a wonderful feeling, having been under different rules for a period of time—does the Minister not accept what the noble Lord, Lord Browne, said: that the individual research councils receive no more than the number of requests that DARPA receive, something of the order of 47? It is quite coincidental that the average is 47. Why does the Minister think that ARIA will be inundated with freedom of information requests?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Because it is a fairly new and exciting agency doing new things. I suppose we will have to disagree on that. There is no point and nothing to be gained by doing otherwise. In designing ARIA, we are envisaging a lean agency that will employ people in the tens. I do not know how many people across government are currently employed to respond to the hundreds if not thousands of FoI requests that we get, but given the bundles of documentation that sometimes pass my desk, there must be many hundreds of civil servants engaged in doing nothing other than responding to these fishing expeditions. As I said, ARIA will be an agency employing people in the tens, with around 1% of the R&D budget.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I invite him to reread what he said at Second Reading. He virtually invited people who are being refused the opportunity to ask ARIA questions to ask them of his department. Then it will be a true comparison. I invited him to compare an organisation of the nature of a research council with one such as DARPA, not to compare DARPA with a government department. At Second Reading, he himself listed a whole number of organisations, including government departments, that are subject to FoI. It is an invitation to people who are refused the discipline of talking to a smaller organisation in a proportionate way to flood a department with requests and take up even more time. With respect to the Minister, I think this is verging on an irresponsible attitude towards this argument, even in his own interests.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I can assure the noble Lord that people need no invitation from me to table FoI requests to my department. They are well capable of doing it. I think some people already have forms set up on their word processors to submit some of these things with gay abandon.

Anyway, in designing ARIA we are envisaging an agency that will be lean and streamlined. It will employ people in the tens, and we strongly believe that it needs to be agile and efficient. “Lean”, “streamlined” and “efficient” are not always words that are used to describe nominal usual public bodies. However, as my noble friend Lady Noakes has attested to, this context has always been at the forefront of our minds in bringing forward this Bill.

We have carefully considered which procedures are conducive to ARIA’s success. I recognise here that part of ARIA’s success depends on it gaining public trust and being transparent and accountable for its activities, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, called for. I believe that we have found the right balance in freeing this small agency to fund high-risk, critical research but to do it differently, with appropriate visibility to Parliament and taxpayers.

The noble Lord, Lord Broers, raised some concerns about the protection of technological gains in sensitive projects. I note at this point that there are, of course, existing commercial confidentiality exemptions to the FoI Act, as referenced by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. All requests still require processing and we are conscious of this in making the decisions to exclude ARIA.

Much has also been said on transparency today in the contributions from the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate. I maintain that the right provisions to hold ARIA to account are the ones that I outlined at Second Reading. They are the publishing of an annual report and statement of accounts, which will be laid before Parliament, as set out in the Bill; being subject to annual audits by the National Audit Office; and being accountable to Parliament through the CEO, who will be the agency’s accounting officer.

In addition, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne, has pointed out, ARIA will remain a BEIS arm’s-length body, and my department will work with ARIA’s leadership to agree the appropriate arrangements for its scrutiny and oversight in the interests of good governance.

We expect ARIA, as far as possible, to have a culture of transparency, and we hope that will be championed by its incoming leadership. Working across the R&D community, and indeed with Parliament and the public, to communicate ARIA’s activities will be critical to ARIA’s commercial and research success. Given that, I hope the Committee will understand that I cannot accept or agree with this amendment. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has a different opinion.

I turn now to the exemption the Bill affords ARIA from the Public Contracts Regulations 2015, and to Amendments 24 and 42 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman. I think she omitted to speak in favour of her amendment, but I will respond to it anyway.

Our decision to exempt ARIA from the contracting authority obligations in the Public Contracts Regulations hinges on two critical expectations: first, that ARIA will be commissioning and contracting others to do research for it; and, secondly, that ARIA’s programme managers should be acting and investing with agility and speed. When ARIA is commissioning and contracting others to do research for it, it will be operating in a fundamentally different way from traditional R&D grant-making where procurement rules do not apply.

In my view, it is therefore appropriate for ARIA to be given freedom from procurement rules to ensure that the agency has greater flexibility in its contractual arrangements. However, to counterbalance that and to provide the assurance that this freedom will be used properly, we have provided a non-legislative commitment for an independent auditor to report annually on ARIA’s procurement activity. This measure, alongside ARIA’s robust conflict of interest procedures, the wider accountability I just talked about, and governance provisions, are an appropriate set of arrangements. I hope that reassures the Committee that we have taken all these matters into consideration and that this exemption is both essential to ARIA’s effective function and proportionate to the tasks it faces. Therefore, I invite noble Lords not to press their amendments.

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Well, it may surprise the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, to know that I largely agree with what she had to say on this. I agree with the sentiments that Select Committees should continue to scrutinise the work of arm’s-length bodies. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said, interactions with Select Committees are governed by a different set of rules. They are governed by a long-standing convention set out in the Osmotherly rules, which indicate that members of arm’s-length bodies

“should be as helpful as possible in providing accurate, truthful and full information when giving evidence”

to Select Committees. Furthermore, under the House’s Standing Orders, Select Committees have the power to

“send for persons, papers and records”

relevant to their terms of reference, and for anyone to refuse such a request would be considered contempt of the House.

Finally, as I have said separately, ARIA’s CEO will be personally responsible to the Public Accounts Committee, as the accounting officer. So I do really believe that Select Committees do not need our help in legislation, and probably would not want it, to be able to do their job properly and efficiently. Such guidance is sufficient for ensuring a co-operative relationship between other public bodies and the relevant committees across both Houses. We have not set these things out in legislation before, and I do not believe it should be any different for ARIA.

I hope, therefore, that, with the assurances I have been able to set out—that ARIA will work with Select Committees in the normal way, as other arm’s-length bodies do—it will not be necessary to include any specific provisions in the Bill to enable it to happen.

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Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

35: Clause 8, page 3, line 35, leave out from “any” to end of line 36
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment removes the power to treat legislative references to the Advanced Research and Invention Agency as references to another body which will be unnecessary as a result of the power to modify, amend, repeal or revoke those references under the power introduced by the Minister’s amendment at page 4, line 4.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have brought forward Amendments 35, 36, 44, 45, 46 and 48 in response to your Lordships’ Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report on the Bill. I take this opportunity to thank the committee very much for its careful consideration of the Bill and the important scrutiny it has provided. One of its recommendations was that the power to make consequential provision currently contained in Clause 10 is too broad and should be omitted. I have reflected on the committee’s position and consequently given notice of my intention to oppose the Question that Clause 10 stand part of the Bill. Amendment 36 would introduce a much narrower and more specific power to make consequential amendments into Clause 8—the only remaining place it would be required.

So I will start by saying that the power to dissolve ARIA through draft affirmative regulations made under Clause 8 is, I believe, an important part of the Bill. Although the DPRRC also raised concerns about this power, there is a strong policy rationale and a clear precedent for this particular delegation of power. As the power can be exercised only 10 years after the Bill receives Royal Assent, I hope that that will give your Lordships sufficient indication of our long-term commitment to ARIA. We have clearly heard that patience will be essential if ARIA is to successfully pursue its most ambitious research and innovation. It must therefore have the opportunity to prove itself before it is judged. I therefore welcome the Commons Science and Technology Committee’s recognition in its report into ARIA that

“these projects will take a long time, potentially 10-15 years, to ‘bear fruit’”.

In terms of precedent, under powers set out in the Public Bodies Act 2011, several bodies established by primary legislation have been dissolved using secondary legislation. The Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council, for example, was created by the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 and abolished using powers in the Public Bodies Act in 2013. I of course recognise that the super-affirmative procedure was applied in such instances, but in that particular case this was appropriate in the context of much broader powers. The Public Bodies Act gave Ministers delegated powers not just to abolish bodies but to merge them or change their governance structure and functions. This was also in the context of widespread public body reform, and it was therefore appropriate that the use of the powers was subject to a higher level of scrutiny.

In contrast, the power in Clause 8 is narrow, such that ARIA can only be dissolved. It cannot be merged or have its functions or governance changed in any way, as set out in my response to the DPRRC last week. I hope I have therefore provided sufficient reassurances that this power is justified.

I turn to the revised power to make consequential provision that Amendment 36 introduces. The first thing to say is that consequential provision could now be made in consequence of regulations made only under Clause 8, rather than any provision of the Bill, which represents a substantial narrowing of the previous power contained in Clause 10, which I will oppose.

The second point to emphasise is that, as a result, the power could be exercised only on one occasion, obviously. ARIA can be dissolved only once, and there would be a single opportunity to make consequential amendments in this way. However, ARIA could not be dissolved for at least 10 years, so at least 10 years’ worth of legislation will be passed or made before the power to make consequential amendments could be exercised. It is likely that there will be references to ARIA in those 10 years of future legislation. This amendment extends the power to make consequential amendments to legislation whenever passed or made, so references to ARIA that might appear in future can be removed, leaving a tidy and orderly statute book. I hope that all noble Lords agree that this is a sensible approach.

The final point to make here is that, as a result of this change to the power to make consequential provision, minor and technical changes to other parts of the Bill are required. Amendments 35, 44, 45, 46 and 48 to Clauses 8(4)(e), 11, 12 and 14 fall into that category. These correct the Clause 8 provisions and those on regulations, interpretation and commencement to reflect the replacement of Clause 10. They are consequential on that substantive change and are therefore necessary.

I hope that noble Lords will take a similar view and recognise that, in bringing forward these amendments, we are both taking the right approach and demonstrating the Government’s commitment to engage with and act on the DPRRC’s recommendations. I therefore beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

I draw your Lordships’ attention to the fact that, in this group, government Amendments 44, 45, 46 and 48 do not appear as government amendments on the printed list.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Fox. I have a lot of sympathy with what he has to say. We welcome the government amendments, which act on the concerns of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and remove Clause 10 from the Bill. We can only hope that this is something of a sign of good habits to come and that the Government will prove attentive to the committee’s concerns about other legislation.

On Clause 8, where the Government have chosen not to act on the committee’s objection, rather than repeat everything that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, just said, I look forward to the Minister’s reply. I think the best way to sum up the DPRRC’s concern over the clause is that the Government were designing the law for convenience rather than necessity. It also made the point that, after 10 years or longer of ARIA’s operation, the agency would be well established and dissolving it might be a bit more complicated than Clause 8 suggests. Let us hope that ARIA makes it to 10 years.

We are content with the changes made by this group, but it would be helpful to the Committee for the Minister to respond in a bit more detail to some of the concerns. Can he outline how the Government envisage the winding down of ARIA would be managed? In particular, how would parliamentarians be kept informed and, aside from ARIA, who does he think it might be a good idea to consult before bringing forward regulations under Clause 8?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I can be very brief, because I do not have a lot to add to what I said earlier, beyond acknowledging to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that it might have been helpful for me to write a “Dear colleagues” letter informing him and other Members that we had tabled these amendments. They did have the information in advance, but it may have been more helpful specifically to draw noble Lords’ attention to it.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, I have set out why we think the power is justified. In terms of asking us to set out further thoughts on how we might wind it down, we have not even established it yet. Beyond taking the power potentially to do this in 10 years’ time, on the specific circumstances in which this might arise and what might happen in consequence, Parliament will clearly be kept informed through the normal statutory instrument process—

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I have to respond because of the mocking tone of the Minister. He said I should not be asking how he would be winding this up—but it was he who put in the clause about winding up the agency that he is trying to create, so I do not think it is unreasonable to press him on exactly how that might be implemented.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Certainly I apologise to the noble Baroness if she interpreted my remarks as mocking: I was not at all implying that. I was just pointing out that we are still in the process of setting up the agency and recruiting the senior leadership team. I am justifying why the power is in the Bill. The noble Baroness asked me to set out further thoughts on how we might write down something that might happen in 10 years’ time. I will write to her if there is any further information, but I think I am correct in saying that not a great deal of thought has been given to how we might abolish something that we have not yet set up. I did not intend a mocking tone: it was just a point of fact.

I do not have anything to add to what I said earlier. We think the power is justified and there is a precedent for this—but I totally accept that this might be a point of difference between us.

Amendment 35 agreed.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I took the time to discuss this amendment with the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, on completely representing her views on it—but, strangely, we approach this from opposite directions and land in the same place, similarly to the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman. There is a false dichotomy here. Just because an organisation has a purpose does not mean to say that it cannot be independent. On that basis, it is important for it to be independent, and it is equally important for it to have a purpose—and that purpose should be climate change.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, for her comments and for stepping so ably into the breach to represent my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe in her amendment. It is perfectly right that we have returned once again to the central issue of ARIA’s independence, because it is a core part of equipping it for its unique funding approach and for the distinct contribution that we expect it to make to the UK’s R&D landscape.

I support the ambition for the Secretary of State to be mindful of protecting ARIA’s independence in all its interactions with the organisations, where such interactions are required by the Secretary of State’s very limited functions. However, I differ with my noble friend on how we protect its independence in a practical way. I submit that it would be the accumulation of many small things—perhaps creeping influence over strategy, new mechanisms of oversight, or ever-increasing reporting demands on issues of political priority—that would be the arena in which ARIA’s independence would be compromised or lost.

My noble friend Lord Willetts, who is not in his place, spoke eloquently on Wednesday about the challenges he has experienced in trying to carve out space for new approaches in the current R&D system. At that stage, we also had a fairly extensive debate on the accumulated obligations placed on ARIA. We considered how those obligations might be balanced with this vital principle of independence, in the context of amendments which, I believe, would have diminished ARIA’s autonomy in a way that would have been entirely counterproductive. If we truly wish to safeguard ARIA’s independence, it is on those issues that we must look to do it, and there is no easy alternative.

I do not suggest that this is a moment to reopen that debate, but I submit that we cannot have this conversation on independence in an abstract way, divorced from consideration of the practical and operational ways in which it will or will not be given to ARIA. I am sure that there will be plentiful opportunities to discuss this important issue in future. I hope, on the basis of the reassurances I have been able to provide, that my noble friend will, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe, feel able to withdraw the amendment today.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, let me thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, that independence is not incompatible with the Freedom of Information Act and other aspects that are included in the proposition for ARIA in this Bill. However, I do not think that independence is compatible with prescribing that it should focus only on climate change. We will have to agree to differ on that point.

The point of this amendment was that the Secretary of State had to respect the independence of ARIA, not that everybody else had to respect that independence, and I am not sure that I got the ringing endorsement of the Secretary of State not interfering in ARIA. However, we have had a good debate, and I am sure that my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe will enjoy reading it in Hansard. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

37: Schedule 3, page 13, leave out lines 1 to 14
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment removes the amendments that would have treated the Advanced Research and Invention Agency as a reserved matter in relation to Scotland and Northern Ireland and funding provided to it through the Science and Technology Act 1965 as a reserved matter in Scotland.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, the Bill as introduced to the House added ARIA to the lists of reserved bodies within the three devolution Acts. That approach would have conferred on ARIA the same constitutional status as UKRI, which is the UK’s primary public R&D funder. More importantly, it would also have ensured ARIA’s independence by placing it outside the competence of the devolved legislatures.

Since then, my ministerial colleagues and officials have been in close discussions with all three devolved Administrations throughout the passage of the Bill, on the need for legislative consent Motions to be passed in the Scottish Parliament, the Senedd and the Northern Ireland Assembly. During those discussions, principled objections were raised to the creation of ARIA as a reserved body. As a result, we have worked—as I am sure the Committee would expect us to do—to develop an alternative way of guaranteeing ARIA’s independence, through something called the “agreement on the independence of ARIA”, which all four Administrations of the UK have said that they will abide by, and which will sit beneath the overarching memorandum of understanding on devolution.

I am delighted that the text of this document has now been agreed by all four Administrations of the UK and that we have been able to share it with noble Lords in advance of this discussion. I apologise for the fact that we were not able to provide the opportunity for noble Lords to consider this document at greater length before the Committee. However, I wanted to share it as soon as possible, albeit fairly shortly in advance, rather than not sharing it at all. I am confident that this agreement will allow ARIA’s important characteristics to be protected. On that basis, I am content to remove, through Amendments 37 and 40, the reservations that we originally placed in the Bill.

ARIA will remain a single UK-wide organisation able to find and fund the most exciting projects in all regions and nations of the UK. Through the agreement, all four Administrations of the UK have committed to upholding the important principles of ARIA’s strategic autonomy, operational autonomy and minimal bureaucracy.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My noble friend referred to the agreement having been shared with us, but I am not aware of having seen it or where it was shared with me.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My noble friend also sent a letter to me following last week’s Committee; that was shared only with the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton. My noble friend’s department has form on not sharing widely with those in Committee when things are circulated. Can he go back to his department to ensure that all active members of the Committee get access to all the information circulated in response to its deliberations?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My apologies—we shared it with those who had contributed to the debate on the subject previously. In retrospect, we should perhaps have shared it more widely; we will now do so.

As my noble friend Lady Bloomfield set out last week, all four Administrations are equally committed to facilitating ARIA’s seamless operation throughout the UK. I hope that this will provide some comfort, in particular to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who raised some important points on this issue at the time. My department will remain as ARIA’s sponsoring department to reflect the power of the UK Secretary of State, who alone has the power to fund ARIA through Clause 4 of the Bill. In our view, the accountability for that use of public money must therefore flow through the UK Government.

In addition to these protections for ARIA’s autonomy, the agreement provides an input mechanism from a new forum of science advisers to the four Administrations of the UK, directly to ARIA’s executive leadership. While there will be no obligation for ARIA specifically to respond to this input, the scientific challenges relevant to the policy priorities of all four Governments will be jointly communicated.

I appreciate that noble Lords have raised questions on how this will work in detail. At the moment this is necessarily a high-level document and clearly there is more work to do, at a working level, to flesh out this agreement between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations. This work is ongoing and will be the subject of further work in the months to come. However, as a result of it, Ministers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have all now given in-principle consent for the Bill on the basis of this approach. On that basis, I hope that noble Lords will similarly be able to support it. I beg to move.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, this has obviously been an unsatisfactory semi-debate. That dissatisfaction has rung out in various corners of the Room. The advice of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, seems good; if we continue on our current trajectory, Wednesday afternoon will have some time in it. I will not repeat the questions which have been raised, but I add another which we would like to address on Wednesday afternoon when the Minister calls us together to explain. Is this outwith the framework agreement process? Is there a separate process going on? I add that to the list of unanswered questions.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their comments. First, on the agreement, the text has been agreed by Ministers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I thought it best to share it as soon as possible; I wanted to share it in advance—it was not far in advance but it was slightly in advance—rather than not share it at all. We originally committed to sharing it ahead of Report; I will ensure that all noble Lords have the opportunity properly to scrutinise it ahead of that and we can return to the issue then. Once noble Lords have had an opportunity to discuss it, I would be very happy to arrange a further briefing with officials for anyone interested in this subject.

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Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

38: Schedule 3, page 13, line 14, at end insert—
“Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003
6A_ In section 61L(1) of the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003 (meaning of “public authority”), after paragraph (b) insert—“(ba) the Advanced Research and Invention Agency,”.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides for the Advanced Research and Invention Agency to be a public authority for the purposes of Chapter 10 of Part 2 of the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003 (workers’ services provided through intermediaries to public authorities or medium or large clients).

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Amendments 38, 41 and 43 are consequential on the omission of Clause 10 from the Bill and the narrowing of the power we talked about earlier to make consequential amendments through regulations. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee suggested that any necessary consequential amendments should be added to Schedule 3, so we are responding to that recommendation here. The amendments apply to ARIA a set of relevant obligations that would usually apply to “public authorities”, which are sometimes defined in reference to Schedule 1 to the Freedom of Information Act 2000, which, of course, ARIA is not listed in. Bespoke provisions therefore are required.

I will briefly summarise the obligations that will apply to ARIA as a result of these amendments. The first relate to the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003 and the Social Security Contributions (Intermediaries) Regulations 2000, with which I am sure all noble Lords are intimately familiar. This legislation includes the off-payroll working rules, which are designed to ensure that individuals working like employees but through their own company—usually a personal service company—pay broadly the same income tax and national insurance contributions as those who are directly employed. These rules have been reformed over the past five years to improve compliance by moving the responsibility for determining whether the off-payroll working rules apply from the individual’s personal service company to the client engaging them. That reform came into effect in the public sector in April 2017, and in the private and voluntary sectors on 6 April this year. I do not believe that there is a justification for ARIA to be treated differently from any other public bodies here.

The second element is the Data Protection Act 2018, which gives the GDPR effect in UK law. Through the Bill as it was introduced, ARIA would already be subject to the normal requirements of the GDPR, but the obligations on public authorities are different, in terms of the bases for data processing and governance and oversight arrangements. Similarly, in this case, I do not believe that there is a justification for ARIA to be treated differently from other comparable bodies in this important area.

Finally, the amendments to the Enterprise Act 2016 and Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015 allow us to avoid a situation where ARIA is considered part of the private sector for the purposes of business impact assessments of regulatory activities. Again, I do not believe that it is appropriate for impacts to ARIA, as a public sector body, to be included in any such considerations. I also do not believe that it would be appropriate for ARIA to avail itself of the support available through the office of the Small Business Commissioner, which is intended for private sector entities. So, while public authority obligations in other legislation have been considered, they were not assessed to be sufficiently relevant to ARIA to make further amendments here. I beg to move.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, there is a splendid irony in what the Minister has just said as he trotted through the contortions of these amendments. I think he had a former life as a contortionist: it was quite extraordinary, really.

I do not think that these amendments are consequential; I think they are “Oops, we forgot something, actually”, as far as the Bill is concerned. Because of the way they treated the FoIA, suddenly everybody woke up to the fact that, for the purposes of that, ARIA was not a public body, because the Government had been so keen not to define it as a public body and therefore it had to be defined as a public body for the purposes of other legislation in a rather different way. So I do not think that this is consequential—except that it is something that probably should have been thought about when the original FoIA omission decision was made. No doubt everything will be clear after Report: the Minister will have his definition of a public body, everything will be logical and clear, and we will not have to have contortions such as this.

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Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

40: Schedule 3, page 13, leave out lines 15 to 30
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment removes the amendments that would have treated the Advanced Research and Invention Agency as a reserved matter in relation to Wales and funding provided to it through the Science and Technology Act 1965 as outside the functions of the Welsh Ministers.

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Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

43: Schedule 3, page 14, line 3, at end insert—
“UK GDPR
12_(1) In Article 2 of the UK GDPR (material scope), in paragraph (5)(d), for “and (7)” substitute “to (8)”.(2) In sub-paragraph (1), “UK GDPR” has the same meaning as in the Data Protection Act 2018 (see sections 3(10) and 205(4) of that Act).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment at page 13, line 35, so far as it inserts section 21(8) of the Data Protection Act 2018.

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Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

44: Clause 11, page 4, line 29, leave out “any of the following” and insert “regulations under section 8”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on leaving out Clause 10.

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Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

46: Clause 12, page 5, leave out lines 4 to 8
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment at Clause 8, page 4, line 4.

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[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

I remind the Minister that, not so long ago, he secured Amendments 37 and 40 on the basis of the sight, by a limited number of us, of a draft agreement. It is not unreasonable to ask him to at least consider reciprocating.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank Members who have contributed to this brief debate. I am disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, did not exercise us again with his Daily Telegraph subscription, which I was very impressed by. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Fox, on saving the best to last with his bravura amendment. He has obviously been searching his thesaurus over the weekend for appropriate analogies. It was well moved and I do understand the seriousness of the issue and the noble Lord’s intention, which relates to the desire, as we have heard, to understand more details of how ARIA will work in practice.

As I mentioned at Second Reading, ARIA’s framework document is a governance document. It is a standard requirement for public bodies—which, of course, ARIA will be. As suggested in the noble Lord’s amendment, it will set the parameters for ARIA’s relationship with BEIS, as its sponsoring department. That is indeed its very purpose.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, referred to the guidance published by Her Majesty’s Treasury, and I reassure him that, by drawing on the Treasury’s guidance, ARIA’s framework document will ensure that the agency and BEIS work effectively together. It will outline ARIA’s accountability, its decision-making and its financial management structures, along with some broader reporting requirements. However, it is not the appropriate place to codify ARIA’s relationship with other government departments. Other departments have no accountability relationship with ARIA, so its terms of engagement with them are a question of strategy rather than governance. The framework document will not contain any information relating to ARIA’s strategy in terms of collaboration, its project portfolio or indeed, its areas of research interest, all of which, I know, are of great interest to noble Lords.

On the sequencing of publication and commencement, given that both ARIA and the department need to be in agreement on the framework document, I reiterate, as I said at Second Reading, that it is therefore not possible to finalise it before ARIA’s senior leadership is in place, as my noble friend Lady Noakes, pointed out. It is not possible for the framework document to be published in advance of ARIA coming into legal existence. Similarly, the framework document for UKRI, for example, was finalised and published after that body came into legal existence.

Finally, it is worth noting that framework documents are live publications and are amended regularly to reflect any changes in the sponsor department or indeed the arm’s-length body itself, and they are all thoroughly reviewed every three years.

On the point raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, on whether the framework document will outline the role of the Government’s Chief Scientific Adviser on ARIA, it is likely to. I will be happy to write to the noble Viscount with any more detail that I can on that.

I hope therefore that noble Lords understand that, in our view, there is a logical process to follow in the establishment of a public body and therefore that they will accept my assurance that we will publish the finalised framework document as soon as practicably possible.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I have a couple of questions before the Minister sits down—or rather, I will now respond. The Minister seeks to downplay why we should be interested in the framework agreement, but the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, when he was in his seat, specifically asked about the relationship between UKRI and ARIA. That is just one question; there is a lot of interest in this and a lot of need to know. So the Minister should acknowledge that this is important to people and to organisations that are, in turn, important to this country.

I have a second point on which I would like an answer. I assume from what the Minister said that the sequence is: first, appoint a chief executive and then appoint the person to whom the chief executive reports. I still find that an interesting sequence, but certainly both those people will be asking what our relationship is with, for example, UKRI—or with others, as set out by the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate.

It seems to me that either the Government will have an answer to that question during the recruitment process, or they will say, “Well, please yourself”. I suspect they have an answer and, just as the noble Lord, Lord Browne, said, trusting us with the draft of how that question will be answered would be completely reasonable and something that we would appreciate. With that said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

48: Clause 14, page 5, line 28, leave out “10” and insert “11”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment to leave out Clause 10.