Education Bill

Lord Bishop of Hereford Excerpts

Wednesday 14th September 2011 Grand Committee

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

My Lords, surely it is the case that everyone here would be totally committed to having the best possible teaching in every institution. However, in the light of the comments that have been made, I shall make three points. First, reference was rightly made to child protection. As we well know, a lot of teachers were qualified a long time prior to the present requirements and training. They did not receive that training when they first qualified after doing their diplomas in education, certificates, BEd or whatever. That seems to me to be a crucial point.

Secondly, while we want these things frontloaded as much as possible, they should not be just frontloaded. It is not just a matter of training before a person teaches. As we all know, and to which we are all committed, there is very much the ongoing need for training. Perhaps that needs to be given a slightly greater weighting than, perhaps I might say, has happened in the comments that have been made.

Thirdly, I would observe that, were a free school rash enough to want to have teachers who were not up to the job, that would surely be a recipe for disaster and failure. They would have no pupils. They certainly would not pass the inspections. Is this not an area where there needs to be some recognition that anyone involved in education will have the best for their pupils in mind and their co-operation, and would therefore want the best possible teachers? How far is it right for legislation to touch that? How far is it right to have trust in the governors and the trustees of the schools? Certainly, when they advertise for posts, they will want skilled people and the best. Surely they will provide training, if it is lacking, in their own context. As I have heard, and I have no doubt other noble Lords have as well, those involved in free schools are already speaking—if they are prepared to consider people without teaching qualifications—about making sure that they provide whatever teaching experience and extra training that people need.

Finally, to what extent could we and should we rightly trust the schools themselves and to what extent is this a matter for legislation?

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

Having been prompted by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, I should like to make a brief intervention, which I hope the Minister will address in his summing up. If he does not, we can come back to it. It seems to me that our view on this amendment may depend on what we define to be a “teacher”. I do not know if there is any definition in law as to what a teacher is. Certainly, for clarification, I do not think that we are saying, any more than the noble Lord, Lord Storey, is saying, that everyone who stands in front of a class and delivers teaching should have a professional teaching qualification.

However, the spirit of the amendment is that it is very important that every child and every class in a school, and every subject area in a secondary school, should have a qualified teacher with oversight of the progression of each pupil and the delivery of the materials in relation to the subject being taught. That is the key issue. Certainly, the previous Government provided for considerable diversification of people in the classroom teaching and talking to pupils—for example, teaching assistants and learning mentors. There are many potential uses of people with great expertise in their field, but who may not be qualified teachers, to come in and give their expertise and enthusiasm to pupils. I believe fundamentally that the progression of each pupil should be under the oversight of someone with a teaching qualification and, if appropriate, in the subject area. Seeing the preparation that my son, who is a primary school teacher, carries out and the expertise gained from his basic training that he brings to bear on both those issues—the progression of each child and the way in which subject matter is delivered—has further convinced me that this provision is right. That is not to say that people with a basic teaching qualification should not also undertake continuing professional development. Of course they should and all qualified teachers are required to do so. However, there is added value to be gained from the professional training which people without that training cannot bring to those two tasks. I would be grateful if the Minister would clarify the Government’s position on that.

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[Baroness Murphy]

I shall move Amendment 126 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, myself and the noble Baroness, Lady Flather. I should apologise to the Committee for not participating in debates because I was abroad at the end of last term, so this is my last appearance, as it were, before the windup.

I return to the issue of faith schools. The noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, and the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, have an important group of amendments that we shall come to later in relation to the employment of teachers in faith schools, but this little one has been taken out and put on its own, which is the right thing to do.

I would like to say a little about where I stand on faith schools. I shall not launch into a Second Reading speech on the divisiveness of faith schools because it is important that we offer some choice and that the wishes of parents can be best articulated in those schools which have a faith-based ethos and come within the ambit of the general system of inspection and inclusion, which takes place under the national curriculum, and so on. I also declare that I understand completely the vital and proud role that the Church of England voluntary-aided and voluntary-controlled schools have played right from the early 19th century. They have been socially inclusive and have integrated with the local community. They have also been very broad about their employment policies and so on. I have enormous admiration for some of these schools, but I am concerned, as many people are, about the rise of some of the rather more eccentric-based faith schools and about this small issue which we have tabled here.

In Part 6, this is an amendment to Clause 54 to reverse the increased role for religious bodies in the academy conversion process. The Bill introduces a new requirement for the Government to consult with the appropriate religious body when converting a maintained school with a religious character into an academy, despite an existing provision to ensure that trustees and others in charge of the management of the school will be consulted. This clause serves exclusively, it seems to me, to hand further control of education to religious authorities and stands in stark comparison to the lack of provision to consult with the wider community when transforming a community school into an academy or opening a free school or academy. This amendment simply removes that new requirement. I beg to move.

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her generous comments about the inclusive nature and history of our Church of England schools, and for affirming the importance of our continuing to offer choice. While I have some sympathy with what she is saying with regard to some of the risks that might be involved with some of the newer faith schools that might be planned, the difficulty that her amendment presents for the Church of England is that it would take out the requirement for consultation with our diocesan boards of education. They may or may not be the trustees but they are nevertheless the religious authority for our Church of England schools. In trying to address the issue that the noble Baroness has raised, it is of the utmost importance that we do not sideline the Church of England boards of education. They play a role across all the dioceses.

In my own diocese of Hereford, which covers Herefordshire and south Shropshire, we have 84 church schools. The boards of education are involved in appointing the head teachers, supporting the schools and in policy-making in conjunction with the schools, trustees and governors. They have a key role as far as the local authorities are concerned in that they can relate to the diocesan boards of education. That does not mean that they do not relate to individual schools but that, corporately, they can relate to the boards as a whole. That is a real plus and a virtue. Therefore, while I am sympathetic to the issue that the noble Baroness is trying to address with this amendment, I caution that, as worded, it would have an unintended consequence. We should not allow that to happen and should ensure that our diocesan boards of education continue to have the recognition and, indeed, the requirement that they are consulted in the way that exists at present. If I may say so, we are back to the “as is” issue that has been mentioned in Committee on a number of occasions.

[Lord Sutherland of Houndwood]

My Lords, unusually, I disagree with my noble friend Lady Murphy, and I do so for three reasons. First, we are talking about consultation, not a power of veto. Secondly, it seems to me only good manners to talk to the sponsoring body, and good manners are not yet wholly absent from public life. Thirdly, and perhaps more importantly, I have no doubt that consulting the body in question would enable a smoother transition to the new status because one wants the co-operation of those who have helped to appoint the head teacher and of the original sponsors in order to make the school successful in the future.

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[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I support what my noble friend said. Clause 55(3)(b) states that one of the people who is allowed to carry out the consultation, apart from a school's governing body referred to in Clause 55(3)(a), is the person with whom the Secretary of State proposes to enter into academy arrangements. That does not seem terrible neutral to me. Guess what the result will be. To the question, “Do we want a new academy?”, I think the answer will be, “Yes, we do”. It seems inconceivable that any consultation carried out by the body that is straining at the leash to open this academy is going to come up with the answer, “No, we don’t want it”. So it is not very neutral.

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

My Lords, I think that we would all welcome and encourage wide consultation. How helpful is it to be overprescriptive about exactly who is in the list and who is not, or indeed about timing? Once again, within our church schools, we always encourage consultation at the earliest possible opportunity.

Because these amendments refer also to Clause 58, I would be grateful if I might ask another question. Will the Minister say something more about changing the age range within academies, as provided in Clause 58? Changing the age range would help in some situations and examples. For example, if a primary school has a nursery school attached, it would not be possible to include the nursery school, because that would be a change of age range, whereas in reality, if such a decision is to be made, at least having the option would be hugely helpful. I may have misunderstood, judging from the looks coming from the Minister. I am simply making the point that it would be hugely helpful. If groups have been working closely together, allowing them and giving them a mechanism to work to become united would save huge amounts of bureaucracy and red tape. I understand that there might be pressures the other way to keep them separate, because that would make it easier either for Government or local authorities, but it would certainly not make it easier for the schools or the academies themselves. I would be grateful if the Minister would say something about that, because I do not think that it is addressed elsewhere in the amendments.

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Debate on whether Clause 58 should stand part of the Bill.

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

My Lords, am I allowed to ask whether the Minister might be kind enough to respond to the point I made in relation to this clause? Given all the other exchanges that we have had, I think it has slipped his memory.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am not sure what the protocol is but I will write to the right reverend Prelate.

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[Baroness Turner of Camden]

My Lords, I will speak to the amendments in this group in my name. They seem complicated, which is because reference needs to be made to previous legislation. However, they have been drafted with a view to protecting teachers and ensuring that they have legislative cover in line with the European employment directive and our equality law.

When the previous Government introduced academies, they stipulated that teachers did not have to be adherents to a stated religion unless they were involved in teaching RE or religious instruction. The concept was introduced of reserved teachers, selected for their fitness to give religious education in line with the precepts of the designated religion. However, they did not constitute the majority of the staff—they had to be no more than one-fifth of the staff—and other teachers were in no way required to adhere to the religion or its precepts. However, the opinions of several legal and academic lawyers contend that the Bill does not provide adequate protection for non-religious teachers. They say that it falls far short of the standards required by the European directive. The aim of my amendments is to ensure that this protection is available.

I turn to the first of my amendments. Amendment 127 —and Section 59 of the SSFA to which it refers—protects non-religious staff in community schools from discrimination on the grounds of their religion or lack of it. This includes not being required to take religious education or to conduct collective worship. I commend the Government for transferring to the Bill existing protections for non-religious teachers in voluntary controlled schools that are transferring to academies, but unfortunately this has not been carried through to teachers in community schools. The amendment does this. I do not accept that it is reasonable for teachers, some of whom may be of many decades' standing, to lose their protection for not teaching RE. This regression is in contravention of the employment directive.

Amendment 128 also deals with aspects of previous legislation, in particular Section 60(5) of the SSFA. For a long while, this section has been regarded as draconian and the amendment states that it should be omitted. Among other things, Section 60(5) states that,

“preference may be given, in connection with the appointment, remuneration or promotion of teachers at the school, to persons … whose religious opinions are in accordance with the tenets of the religion or religious denomination specified in relation to the school … or … who attend religious worship in accordance with those tenets, or … who give, or are willing to give, religious education at the school … and … regard may be had, in connection with the termination of the employment of any teacher at the school, to any conduct on his part which is incompatible with the precepts, or with the upholding of the tenets, of the religion or religious denomination so specified”.

That is pretty draconian and a number of lawyers who were consulted believed it to be a bit over the top. The suggestion of the amendment is that it should not be applied.

There is also the issue of head teachers. It has been suggested that the head teacher of a school should be a reserved teacher. Amendment 129 states:

“The head teacher of such a school shall not, while holding the post of head teacher of the school, be a reserved teacher”.

That seems reasonable, because the head teacher is the head of a staff only one-fifth of whom are necessarily reserved teachers. Therefore, it is reasonable that the head teacher should not have to be a reserved teacher. If this were insisted upon, it would mean that it would be somewhat of a problem for teachers who had career aspirations, because they might find it difficult to become head teachers in a situation where they were required to be a reserved teacher.

Amendment 130 sets out a reasonable arrangement.

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

It is my understanding that the head teacher does not have to be a reserved teacher, but that they may be. I thought that the noble Baroness said that the head teacher had to be a reserved teacher. My understanding is that that is not correct.

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

I am glad to hear that.

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

But others will know better.

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

All I can say is that the legal advice I had on the text before us is that it would be better to say in the Act that a head teacher did not have to be a reserved teacher. But if the right reverend Prelate says that that is not so, I am quite happy about that.

Amendment 130 sets out the arrangements in regard to voluntary aided schools, but an important piece has been put into the bottom of this text. Proposed subsection (5A) in Amendment 130 states that,

“nothing in this section shall be taken to permit discrimination which would be prohibited by the Equality Act 2010 other than in relation to religion or belief”.

I understand that that wording is in compliance with the European text to which I earlier referred.

Most of the other amendments deal with what we are trying to achieve, which is a situation in which the arrangements that have been introduced by the previous Government in relation to academies are applied throughout the educational setup. In other words, there should be arrangements for people who are regarded as reserved teachers, but the rest of the teaching population should not be restricted in any way, and they may or may not be religious or may have no belief at all. I am asking the Government to consider seriously what is proposed here.

The amendments, as I understand it, do not interfere with the rights of religiously designated schools. All they do is ensure that the basic non-discrimination law protects teachers. They should be appointed on the basis of their ability to teach their subject. Their religion or non-religion should be a private matter, unless of course they are specifically appointed because of their ability to teach RE and deal with religious instruction. That is met by the proposed amendments, which are in line with the EU directive. I had very detailed legal opinion here, which is in full support of what I have been saying. As I said earlier, the intention is to give protection to people who have religion which is not the same as the designated one, or have no belief at all. I hope therefore that the Government will consider seriously what has been said because, if the amendments are not regarded as suitable but they accept the concept, they can come back with different wording. I beg to move.

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Overall the legislation allows faith schools to maintain their religious ethos. We are replicating that position with regard to academies. The Bill makes clear the position of staff in VC schools converting to academy status, which I think noble Lords have welcomed. With that response, those reassurances and the commitment to speak further, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

My Lords, I am sorry if I am rather too new to this process. I though that the Minister stood just to address some of the narrow points that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, made. I hope the Committee will allow me to react, not surprisingly, to some of the comments that have been made. Is that in order?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

It is perfectly in order if the right reverend Prelate addresses the amendments that have been set down.

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

They are precisely what I want to address, as well as the debate that has just happened. I was here on Monday, when it seemed to me that the debates reflected a common purpose. Although they came from slightly different slants and slightly different views, they were not very far away. It is difficult not to regard the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, in a rather different way. Indeed, it is difficult for me to sit here without regarding it, perhaps mistakenly, as more akin to a full-frontal assault on the dual system as we have it.

I observe that the noble Lord began by saying that he is a member of the National Secular Society.

[Lord Avebury]

I said I was an honorary associate of the National Secular Society.

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[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

That puts the noble Lord very much within the faith spectrum and reflects the views, understanding and philosophy that lie behind what the noble Lord said. It might help understanding of the debate if that is put more clearly in the faith spectrum rather than in some pseudoneutral position because it is a position of faith about belief. Therefore it reflects the understanding of the debate.

There are 12 amendments in this group which makes it very difficult for me to know how best to address quite so many amendments in one go when they address such sensitive and critical issues. They all relate to Clause 60. I know that the National Society has been in discussion with the Minister’s department about a certain ambiguity there, and I shall make a general comment about that before going on to more particular points on some of the amendments.

We would be grateful if the Minister would confirm that while the bulk of Clause 60 refers to reserved teachers only, Clause 60(3)(9) refers to all teachers in a voluntary-controlled or foundation school with a designated religious character. As we have quite rightly been reminded, the purpose of reserved teachers is to provide denominational religious education when parents request it, as is their right. They may also teach the agreed syllabus for religious education, but that is not the reason for their appointment as reserved teachers. No other teachers may be required to teach religious education, whether the agreed syllabus or denominational. However, any teacher may agree to do so if requested, and any teacher may be specifically appointed to teach agreed syllabus religious education in accordance with a contract duly advertised and accepted. I would appreciate it if the Minister could clarify that understanding because the National Society is of the view that the clause has a certain ambiguity that we do not want to cause difficulties elsewhere.

To come more specifically to the amendments, part of my difficulty in listening to the debate is that it seems that noble Lords are in danger of omitting a clear starting point: namely, that faith schools are held on trusts, which require the relevant religious character to be sustained. Governance, employment, admissions, denominational worship and denominational religious education are the mechanisms by which the trustees, via the governing body and the religious authority, are able to ensure that the terms of their trust are being carried out. That is fundamental to the whole nature of this debate and therefore to the legislation itself. The Charity Commission would obviously have a great deal to say if the trustees were not carrying out their proper duties under law.

As has been observed in the other debates on these issues over the past nine days, the ethos and standards are all closely connected within the schools. A strong Christian ethos and high standards overwhelmingly go hand in hand. The noble Lord was asking about measures. There are plenty of them and plenty of objective evidence about precisely those kinds of areas.

[Lord Peston]

Is the right reverend Prelate saying that we know that there is no discrimination in appointments or promotion in these schools? Is there any evidence of that at all?

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[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

At the moment, I am making the point rather about the inspections and the transparency that there is about them, as there is for any other schools. The same standards are required about the appointments processes in church schools as indeed in any other schools.

[Lord Peston]

The right reverend Prelate does not seem to understand my question. I was simply asking: do we know the facts? My view is that we do not. For example, I am not sure how many religious schools there are in the right reverend Prelate’s diocese, but does he know the religious composition of all the teachers in all those schools—and if so, can that be made public?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

It might help the Committee if this debate were continued on a different occasion, because we are straying from the amendments which are on the Table. The Committee stage is designed to focus very much on the specific amendments that are here, rather than the more general debate such as we have on Second Reading.

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

I wanted to stress the point about the trusts because it seems to underline all 12 of these amendments, in terms of how they seek to unpick the dual system that we have and challenge so much of what is there about voluntary controlled or voluntary aided schools. I was grateful for the earlier points from the noble Baroness about Amendment 129. I think we have come to a similar point about that, in that quite clearly we would not want it to be impossible for head teachers to be reserved teachers. The Minister has kindly clarified that the current situation is that they may be, not that they are required to be. We certainly would not want any change in the legislation that made that impossible.

On Amendment 128, the voluntary aided power to use religious criteria for staff appointments is quite clearly a strong power. We readily acknowledge that, as would others here. It is bound to be regarded with concern by some—I appreciate that. However, the key for us is that trustees need to be able to ensure that the purposes of their trusts are being fulfilled. That is why the powers are given in quite the way that they are. Hence, an ability to appoint staff with a proven commitment to the religious character of the school is essential in order that the purposes of donors and the duties of trustees are not frustrated. That also seems fundamental within big society issues.

I jump forward to Amendment 136, which seems to be asking to allow reserved teachers to be appointed but not to allow them to be selected using any religious criteria. If that were included, I would find that a strange consequence. Would it not perhaps be a little like selecting a Labour candidate who may turn out to be a Conservative supporter? That may happen, but I would prefer not to see that in our church schools.

There are too many issues to want to dismantle the dual system. I do not want to go back over the more general points and debates that noble Lords have had about that previously. I also pick up the point made by the Minister on the “as is” issue. There are voluntary controlled schools that want to be able to change and become voluntary aided. That is currently the case. If they were to become academies, it seems to be important that what is available to them under the present situation should continue to be available under the new legislation. Similar points apply to independent schools which, in some cases, have similar trusts to those voluntary aided and voluntary controlled schools.

I believe that I have said enough to make the point about some of the concerns, in particular, but also about the more fundamental issues that underline them to make it clear why I have deep concerns about all 12 of these amendments. Rather than go through others in similar detail, I hope that what I have said will be understood and applied as they affect the rest of the amendments.

[Lord Elton]

The right reverend Prelate has not made the request but I make the suggestion that it might expedite things were he to be engaged in conversations between the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, with suitable support.

[Lord Avebury]

Perhaps I should answer the criticisms which have been made about my contribution to this debate by the right reverend Prelate. He seemed to be suggesting that there was something improper in my raising these amendments and talking to them this afternoon or in the manner in which I raised them, which he contrasted with the proceedings that we enjoyed on Monday. He was suggesting that because I was an honorary associate of the National Secular Society, I was in some way trying to undermine the dual system, when all I am trying to do is to ensure that the trusts which administer faith schools do so in conformity with both European directives and with the European Human Rights Act. I think that the Minister's proposal is an excellent one, but as there is a fundamental dispute between us on whether these provisions are compatible with European law and with the Human Rights Act, we should sit down with our legal advisers and the Bill team to try to resolve them as best we can. I suggest that that is the best way in which we can move forward, if my noble friend Lady Turner agrees.

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

My Lords, may I just say that in no way was I suggesting—indeed, in no way was I saying—that any of the comments were improper. I was rather pointing out that they were not neutral. Like the noble Lord, I would be very happy for the lawyers to be able to sit down, as has been suggested by the Minister.

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

I would like to reply to the debate, which has been very interesting, and to make very clear that I also am a secularist. I have never disguised that fact. However, like most secularists, I also believe in equality. We also believe in freedom of religion. All we object to is that beliefs that we and other people do not share are simply imposed on us whether we like them or not. That is really what a lot of this is about. These amendments seek to protect the position of people who do not share a religious point of view but who nevertheless may be very good teachers and are appointed to teach their subject because they have training in their subject and are good teachers. However, they may not be participants in the religion that is designated to run a particular school.

Of course, we also support what the Government tried to do originally with academies. In fact, what we are trying to do in this Bill is to transfer that system throughout the education system. In the case of academies the Government established that there should be reserved teachers. What they could and could not do was precisely defined; and if teachers were not reserved, no pressure could be exerted on them to join a religion or be bound by any of its precepts. The advice that we have had, which was clear, was that unless we amended it in some way, there was a danger that the Bill now before us would not be regarded as complying with the EU directive. It was for that reason that we put down our series of amendments.

I am grateful for the Minister’s response because I understand that he is going to look at some of these things again. We are happy to hear what he has to say. Of course, we are in Committee; we still have Report to go through, and we will take careful note of what has been said. I thank my noble friend Lord Peston for his support. In reply to his comment about who is breaking the law, as far as we can see, unless this Bill is amended, the green light will be given to people on the floor, so to speak, in education to apply what they want to apply because the law that we will then have will not prevent them doing so. If people objected, the only thing to do would be to go to Europe with it, and that is not a good idea. That is the situation and that is one of the reasons we wanted amendments before the Bill leaves this House.

In the mean time, I thank the Minister for what he has said. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and other noble Lords for their comments. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I shall speak to the amendments to Schedule 14 in the name of my noble friend Lord Hill. They were the subject of his explanatory letter of 8 September. Concerns were raised in the other place and elsewhere about the breadth of the new powers in the land provisions. Many land provisions in the Bill merely re-enact existing powers in previous legislation, with a small number of amendments. There are two main areas where there are new powers. First, the Bill puts the protection of publicly owned land and public investment in land used by academies on a statutory rather than a contractual basis. I am sure that noble Lords will agree with this objective. Secondly, it introduces new powers to transfer the publicly funded land of foundation and voluntary schools to free schools and academies when a school closes or the land is otherwise disposed of. I seek to provide reassurance in relation to these powers in my remarks.

Amendments 139H, 139K and 139L reduce the reach of the second area of new powers so that they do not apply to land that is leased to a new academy by a private landlord. Where we are engaging in commercial negotiations with private landlords for the lease of land to new free schools, it is more appropriate to protect any public investment in that land by contractual means rather than in statute. In addition to speaking about these amendments, it may be helpful if I say a little more about the circumstances in which we envisage the powers being used in respect of land held by the trusts of schools and academies, many of which are church diocesan trusts.

While we will consider each case on its merits, where trustee land is being disposed of, our intention is that, as a general principle, the Secretary of State will consider using his powers to direct the transfer of land only where the value of the public investment in it is greater than 50 per cent. We shall have further detailed discussions with interested parties with a view to developing agreed guidance about the operation of these powers, including how the value of the land and the public investment in it is calculated. Similarly, the Secretary of State will not normally use his powers to transfer trustee-owned school land in which there has been public investment if the land continues to be used for other purposes of the trust where these obtain. If it were proposed that such land should be removed from educational use, yet in the view of the Secretary of State there were compelling reasons why it should be retained, any such transfer would take place only following full consultation with the trust and any relevant religious authority, and having regard to any relevant views of the Charity Commission. Should this arise, there would, of course, be appropriate payment to the trust in respect of the private interest in the land. Notwithstanding the above, where trust land that has been enhanced at public expense is disposed of, any public investment will continue to be protected in statute.

Finally, Amendments 139M to 139T are largely technical drafting improvements, most of which arose from our discussions with the Charity Commission. I beg to move.

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

My Lords, I will simply thank the Minister—and her officials, who have been in negotiation with the National Society—for the clarification that she has given.

Amendment 139H agreed.