Education Bill

Baroness Hughes of Stretford Excerpts

Wednesday 14th September 2011 Grand Committee

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

My Lords, surely it is the case that everyone here would be totally committed to having the best possible teaching in every institution. However, in the light of the comments that have been made, I shall make three points. First, reference was rightly made to child protection. As we well know, a lot of teachers were qualified a long time prior to the present requirements and training. They did not receive that training when they first qualified after doing their diplomas in education, certificates, BEd or whatever. That seems to me to be a crucial point.

Secondly, while we want these things frontloaded as much as possible, they should not be just frontloaded. It is not just a matter of training before a person teaches. As we all know, and to which we are all committed, there is very much the ongoing need for training. Perhaps that needs to be given a slightly greater weighting than, perhaps I might say, has happened in the comments that have been made.

Thirdly, I would observe that, were a free school rash enough to want to have teachers who were not up to the job, that would surely be a recipe for disaster and failure. They would have no pupils. They certainly would not pass the inspections. Is this not an area where there needs to be some recognition that anyone involved in education will have the best for their pupils in mind and their co-operation, and would therefore want the best possible teachers? How far is it right for legislation to touch that? How far is it right to have trust in the governors and the trustees of the schools? Certainly, when they advertise for posts, they will want skilled people and the best. Surely they will provide training, if it is lacking, in their own context. As I have heard, and I have no doubt other noble Lords have as well, those involved in free schools are already speaking—if they are prepared to consider people without teaching qualifications—about making sure that they provide whatever teaching experience and extra training that people need.

Finally, to what extent could we and should we rightly trust the schools themselves and to what extent is this a matter for legislation?

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

Having been prompted by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, I should like to make a brief intervention, which I hope the Minister will address in his summing up. If he does not, we can come back to it. It seems to me that our view on this amendment may depend on what we define to be a “teacher”. I do not know if there is any definition in law as to what a teacher is. Certainly, for clarification, I do not think that we are saying, any more than the noble Lord, Lord Storey, is saying, that everyone who stands in front of a class and delivers teaching should have a professional teaching qualification.

However, the spirit of the amendment is that it is very important that every child and every class in a school, and every subject area in a secondary school, should have a qualified teacher with oversight of the progression of each pupil and the delivery of the materials in relation to the subject being taught. That is the key issue. Certainly, the previous Government provided for considerable diversification of people in the classroom teaching and talking to pupils—for example, teaching assistants and learning mentors. There are many potential uses of people with great expertise in their field, but who may not be qualified teachers, to come in and give their expertise and enthusiasm to pupils. I believe fundamentally that the progression of each pupil should be under the oversight of someone with a teaching qualification and, if appropriate, in the subject area. Seeing the preparation that my son, who is a primary school teacher, carries out and the expertise gained from his basic training that he brings to bear on both those issues—the progression of each child and the way in which subject matter is delivered—has further convinced me that this provision is right. That is not to say that people with a basic teaching qualification should not also undertake continuing professional development. Of course they should and all qualified teachers are required to do so. However, there is added value to be gained from the professional training which people without that training cannot bring to those two tasks. I would be grateful if the Minister would clarify the Government’s position on that.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, I agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and my noble friend Lord Storey said about the importance of a high-quality professional teaching workforce. As the noble Baroness said, in some of our earlier debates in Committee we have talked about some of the Government’s plans for improving teacher quality such as raising the bar for entrants to ITT, strengthening performance management arrangements, our proposals for teaching schools and the expansion of Teach First, which the previous Government introduced and to which I shall come back in a moment.

I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for mentioning continuing professional training. I agree with him and the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, about the importance of that. We have also asked the Coates review to revise and improve the standards that underpin QTS, and we have announced that we will adopt the clearer and more focused standards recommended by the review. Therefore, we are not talking about some wholesale move away from a commitment to the highest possible standards. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said, we require academies to employ teachers with QTS through their funding agreements. The decision not to require QTS for all staff in free schools is simply intended to allow the possibility of greater innovation at the edges of the maintained sector. We have done this because we are keen to give free schools the ability to recruit experienced teachers who might have a background in FE, the higher education sectors, the independent sector or in other walks of life, who can bring their wider experience to bear in the classroom. It may be a way of getting—I have seen this in a school where I was a governor—a brilliant mathematician with a brilliant degree into teaching more speedily when there is a desperate need. It may be a way—this point was raised by my noble friend Lord Storey—of getting people from the Armed Forces, who might be able to engage particularly well with teenage boys. There are practical cases at the margins where this extra flexibility might help.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, will recall, during the passage of the Academies Act we made commitments to ensure that additional safeguards are in place for vulnerable groups regardless of the type of school they attend. The free school funding agreement requires free schools to appoint a special educational needs co-ordinator and a designated teacher with responsibility for children in care, who hold qualified teacher status.

My next point links with the more general point made by the right reverend Prelate. Free school applications have to undergo a rigorous assessment process and have to demonstrate how they intend to deliver the highest quality of teaching and learning. However, as he argued, more generally they will be directly accountable to their parent and pupil bodies for the quality of education provided. Clearly, they will want to provide the highest quality education both in order to be approved and to continue to succeed. Like other academies and state-funded schools, they will be required to collect performance data and publish their results, and they will be inspected by Ofsted under the same framework that applies to all publicly funded schools, including on safeguarding. As free schools are intended to respond to parental demand for change in local education provision, it will be incumbent on free school academy trusts to ensure that their teaching staff are properly equipped to deliver their particular educational vision.

The core of the Government’s argument is that all Governments seek to innovate. The previous Government took the decision to set up Teach First, which is an innovation I applaud; it was intended to bring about more flexible entry into the profession. I am sure that at the time there were some people who argued that this was a dangerous innovation, and I am glad to say that the previous Government persevered with it. We see this as being no different. It is a modest innovation, it is a permissive measure, and it is subject to the strict accountability measures that I have set out. I therefore ask the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, to withdraw her amendment.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

I now call Amendment 126ZZA.

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

With respect, did the Deputy Chairman call Amendment 126ZZA?

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

Yes, Amendment 126ZZA to Clause 55.

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

That is the first amendment in what is not the next group of amendments but the group after that, according to the draft groupings. Is that not right?

[Lord Skelmersdale]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, has just withdrawn Amendment 126 to Clause 54. We now move on to Clause 55, which starts with Amendment 126ZZA.

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

I beg the Committee’s pardon. I was working to earlier groupings and wondered why they were listed in that way. I obviously did not check my computer at the last minute.

Amendment 126ZZA

Moved by

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

126ZZA: Clause 55, page 45, line 22, leave out “is converted into an Academy” and insert “applies for an Academy Order”

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

I shall speak also to Amendments 126ZZB and 126ZBA to Clause 55, and to Amendments 126ZD and 126ZE to Clause 58. Elements in those clauses and these amendments relate to the requirements on the consultation that must take place before a maintained school can convert to an academy. The proposals in the Bill are worded such that the governing body itself can decide who is consulted and when that consultation takes place. That timing can include consultation taking place not only before but after an order is applied for or is made. That seems to us to be contrary to the spirit of any consultation, in which, minimally, there ought to be legitimate parameters around who should be consulted and when the appropriate timing is. Most reasonable people would say that consultation should take place before a decision is made.

These amendments therefore seek to say, first, that there should be some minimal requirements on who is consulted—that the governing body cannot have a completely unfettered right to decide whether anybody, or nobody, will be consulted.

Secondly, the consultation should take place in time to inform decision-making. If it can take place after a decision has been made, if only in principle, that begs the question of what purpose it serves. As to consultation that can take place after an order is made, let alone an application for an order for a school to become an academy, it seems to suggest that the Secretary of State will make a decision in favour of an application whatever the consultation might say. That does not do the Government much good and certainly does not suggest that they regard consultation as a meaningful process.

There are important issues of principle here. Before making this speech, I thought of all the consultations that Governments and many other organisations are required to have with the public before they put forward proposals or change legislation. All the consultations have a set of minimum requirements on the people consulting as to what should be the scope and the best timing for the consultations. I cannot for the life of me think that it is reasonable, again on the altar of freedom for schools, to tear up the reasonable notion that there should be a definition in statute of the scope and timing of this consultation. That is a reasonable thing for the law to say and therefore I hope that noble Lords will support the amendments.

[Baroness Brinton]

I will speak to Amendments 126ZB and 126ZC. Before I do, I will say that I support the comments about consultation made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes. Post-event consultation is not consultation. In my experience, and I am sure in that of many noble Lords present, it is infuriating to communities when that happens, because they realise that they are being given information rather than a chance to influence what is happening.

The intention of the two amendments that I am speaking to is simple and sits at the heart of the coalition agreement's stated desire to affirm and support localism. I turn first to Amendment 126ZB. The current consultation on intervention for conversion to an academy is the opposite of true localism. As expressed in Clause 55(3), the consultation is done either by the proposed academy—and we know from experience that many academies do not want to consult widely—or by the Secretary of State. How on earth the Secretary of State or his hard-pressed civil servants can seriously manage such consultations, I do not know. Even more worrying is the fact that this is exactly the role that should be given to the independent but local elected authority, which has the strategic responsibility for economic and social well-being in its area and must ensure the appropriate provision for schools and the learning of education and skills.

Amendment 126ZC follows logically when a new school is being considered for academy status. At present, the Bill leaves everything to the Secretary of State, who will have to consult locally in order to take a view on what is needed. Therefore, it seems sensible that,

“the local authority must confirm whether the school is required”,

taking account of other school provision in the area. We should see new schools only in areas where there is a need. In these straitened times, setting up new schools where there is a surplus of school places is not the most sensible thing to do. Finally, I will just say that we are concerned that this undoes some very sensible work done with the Academies Act before Christmas, and we hope that the Minister will reconsider the Government’s position.

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[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The view of the Government is the same as it was a year ago. It is the view that the House reached after debates and, indeed, votes; namely, that we do not need to prescribe lists of people, short or long, in legislation in the way that perhaps happened in the past.

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

If the Secretary of State received an application and the consultation that had been done beforehand did not include the views of parents and staff, what would his attitude be in making a decision on the basis of that consultation?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The view that the Secretary of State would take is that schools that are converting need to comply with the terms of the legislation—the Academies Act—which requires that they should consult such people as they think are appropriate.

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

We have had a number of occasions when, because the Minister is a very reasonable person, we have not pressed to the point where we have got a satisfactory answer from him. This is one of those occasions. We had a similar situation not long ago in relation to qualified teachers. What would the view of the Secretary of State be if he received an application that did not inform him of the views of parents? What action would he take to ask why? Would he ask the applicants to go back and get them? Would the Secretary of State be happy to make a decision without knowing what local parents thought about the proposal?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

It is clearly the case that the governing body wanting to convert has to consult the groups it considers appropriate. If people felt that they had not had a chance to be consulted and were to raise those complaints with the department, that would clearly be something that the department would have to take into account in reaching the decision that it takes. It is not possible for me to go through every possible circumstance that one can possibly come up with and give an answer. There is a clear legislative framework within which the department operates.

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

I want to press this again because this is not about what the applicants think. This is about the point at which there is an application on the table for a decision by the Secretary of State. I am asking the Minister to tell us what would be the view of the Secretary of State. Does he think he could make a decision without knowing the views of local parents? What would be in the Secretary of State’s mind and what would the Government at that point require in order to make a decision? If he were to say that the Government would require to know what parents think, I would say that that requirement ought to be laid upon the applicants in the way that they frame the consultation. However, at the moment I am asking: what is the Government’s view about what they need to make a decision?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am sorry not to be able to be more helpful to the noble Baroness because I know that she is also extremely reasonable. She will no doubt keep pressing and we can return to this another time. But the Government’s position is that the legislative requirement on a converting governing body is set out in the Academies Act 2010. The Government take into account whether or not schools have demonstrated that they have complied with those requirements, which are set out clearly and were inserted as a result of debate on this Bill last summer.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I was coming to that point. I have not got very far with my response. On precisely that point, my noble friend Lady Brinton raised the issue of who should do the consulting when schools are considering converting to academy status. As we have just been discussing, the starting point of the Government is that it should be carried out by the school’s governing body. However, this approach might not always work with underperforming schools that are eligible for intervention. There may be rare occasions when the governing body of the underperforming school seeks to block the development of an academy solution by refusing to consult. Clause 55 resolves this issue, as my noble friend pointed out, by permitting the proposed sponsor to do the consulting.

My noble friend suggests that the local authority would be a better alternative than the proposed sponsor. Clause 55 relates to schools that are failing their pupils and we think need radical improvement. We know that the evidence shows that converting such schools into academies with excellent sponsors can bring about that improvement. Becoming an academy involves, by definition, moving out of local authority control, so it seemed to us it was not right for the local authority to lead the consultation. It is the sponsor who has been identified as able to transform the school, so in our view they are better placed to consult on its future direction. But that consultation has to be carried out in a proper way.

My noble friend also raised important points about the local authority role in decisions about new and additional academies, such as free schools. I hope that I can reassure my noble friend that what her amendment seeks to put into law is already happening in practice. As a result of views expressed during the passage of the Academies Act, the Government introduced a specific requirement on the Secretary of State to take account of the impact of free school proposals on other schools. In meeting this requirement, the department seeks the view of relevant local authorities. In addition, any group wishing to set up a free school has to consult locally on its proposals. The consultation report is an important part of its application to the department. In deciding whether to approve a free school proposal, the Secretary of State therefore takes account of the views of the local authority and other interested parties, including on the issue of the level of need for additional school places.

We know that in practice, many local authorities are already playing a more active role than this. Some are building the free schools programme into their strategic schools planning and have provided proposers with support in areas such as finding sites, getting planning permission and working out levels of demand. It is the case that we do not believe that free schools should be set up only where local authorities identify that they are needed. The key point is to try to make the system more responsive to parental demand by giving parents, teachers or community groups the opportunity to do so.

We accept that consultation is important. It should be conducted in an open way. It should be appropriate to local circumstances. The Academies Act and this Bill provide for such consultation and I would therefore urge the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

My Lords, I thank those Members of the Committee who have contributed to the debate. I also support the amendments spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, which would further refine reasonable requirements regarding how and by whom the consultation should be undertaken. I absolutely agree that it should be undertaken by people without a vested interest in the outcome. I also agree with her that the proposed new schools should comply with local authority requirements regarding the need for new schools.

The fact that this matter was debated a year ago when we discussed the Academies Bill—as the Minister said—does not mean that we should miss an opportunity to correct something that needs to be corrected. There are two key questions here: why should decisions on the scope and timing of consultation be left to the governing body to determine and why should a party with an interest in pursuing the objective of an academy be allowed to undertake the consultation? Unfortunately, the Minister did not answer either of those questions at all, let alone unsatisfactorily. His constant recourse to the legislative requirements for consultation, as if they have nothing at all to do with the Government, was very strange indeed.

My questions sought to ascertain what the Government require by way of information about the views of parents, staff, pupils and local authorities—four key groups—when the Government finally take a decision. Will they take a view at that point in the decision-making on the adequacy of the consultation, and therefore on the quality of the information that the Secretary of State has to enable him to make an informed decision? I am afraid that the Minister implied that the Government will require no information on the views of those groups. The governing body may decide not to consult those people or decide to consult them only after the Secretary of State has made a decision. That is simply not right. I think that all of us in this Room know that it is not right. I have some sympathy with the Minister as he is reasonable and he has been placed in a position of arguing for the demonstrably unarguable. I have no doubt that we will return to this on Report, but for the moment I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 126ZZA withdrawn.