Finance (No. 4) Bill

Lord Beith Excerpts

Wednesday 18th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman patronises many of those chip shops on his regular visits to my part of the world—and sometimes to my constituency. I hope that he will go to Brownings the bakers and have a Killie pie, if he has not already had one. The point that he makes does not negate the fact that it is primarily the smaller bakers—the so-called artisan bakeries and those that produce traditional products—that are going to have a problem as a result of this tax.

I want to return to my point about whether one or both of my two vegan Killie pies would be VATable. I am unsure whether “to VAT” is actually a verb that would provide us with the word “VATable”. I am, however, aware that the word “ambient” has its roots in the Latin word for “going round”. The Chancellor’s reputation, if not his ambitions for the future, seems to be going round in ever-decreasing circles as a result of this furore.

The Treasury Committee employed its usual straightforward way with words when it stated:

“We recommend that, where changes to complex areas of taxation are proposed, the greatest possible supporting material be published to allow for greater scrutiny of the possibility of unintended consequences.”

Those are extremely wise words—[Interruption.] I am happy to take an intervention from those Government Members who are mocking the wise words of the Treasury Committee.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

Am I to understand from what the hon. Lady is saying that the Labour party is making a costed commitment to remove the tax from pasties, and to ensure that there is no anomaly by also removing it from fish and chips and from every other foodstuff as well?

[Cathy Jamieson]

I have to confess that, the last time I looked at the Labour party manifesto, it did not mention fish and chips, or pasties, or bridies. We are absolutely clear that this tax will do nothing to support those local industries and that it will place yet another burden on hard-pressed customers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)]

I wish to speak principally to new clause 7, but, in passing, I associate myself with the remarks of the hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon Henderson), particularly on seaside and coastal towns. I have received a letter on precisely those issues from my holiday village, Martin Mere, in Blackpool, which has caravan sites as well as wonderful beaches.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) eloquently described the broader issue. I do not want to dwell on the architectural glories of churches, but in my constituency, churches and places of worship have done immensely valuable work in adapting their buildings for community and voluntary sector use. That is why I was mystified when I raised the issue in Prime Minister’s questions today. He had a bizarre brief on swimming pools in Tudor houses. We do not have many swimming pools in Tudor houses in Blackpool, but we have many of the churches and places of worship to which I referred. Incidentally, although it will suffer massively from this proposal, this is not just an issue for the Church of England. Many of the reformed and independent Churches, the Roman Catholic Church and other denominations and religions also do immensely valuable work.

[Sir Alan Beith]

I declare an interest as chairman of the Historic Chapels Trust, which is restoring a Catholic church in Blackpool. Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that when alterations were taxed differently from repairs there was a perverse incentive to alter rather than merely repair, but that the Government could help a lot if they were prepared to put more money into the fund that churches can use to bypass VAT?

[Mr Marsden]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention and I pay tribute to his work as chairman of the Historic Chapels Trust. I can only say, however, that I know of no examples in Blackpool where such a process has been the driver. The driver in Blackpool has been to make churches, such as the town centre church, St John’s church, and Holy Trinity church in South Shore, accessible for community meetings and so on. As has rightly been said, this is the big society in action.

Blackpool also has a Salvation Army citadel. It does an immense amount of good work, not least with the homeless community. If it wants to make alterations to its buildings to expand the outreach services and community use it currently offers, it will, as a result of this proposal, face a whopping 20% extra in VAT on any building or alteration work. That is a recipe for stopping all that good work nationwide. As I indicated to the Prime Minister earlier, that is shooting the big society in the foot. It is absolute nonsense.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter referred to the listed places of worship grant scheme. I deplore Ministers’ attempt to cloud the issue by saying that they have thrown £5 million into the pot for the grant scheme. Treasury Ministers and the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport are perfectly aware that that will not address the issue, in any shape or form, of the losses that will be made under this process.