Finance (No. 4) Bill

Gordon Marsden Excerpts

Wednesday 18th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. May I just let Members who wish to speak know that I need to give the Minister time to reply to the debate and intend to call him at 7.40 pm? Hon. Members might therefore want to make their remarks slightly shorter.

[Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)]

I wish to speak principally to new clause 7, but, in passing, I associate myself with the remarks of the hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon Henderson), particularly on seaside and coastal towns. I have received a letter on precisely those issues from my holiday village, Martin Mere, in Blackpool, which has caravan sites as well as wonderful beaches.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) eloquently described the broader issue. I do not want to dwell on the architectural glories of churches, but in my constituency, churches and places of worship have done immensely valuable work in adapting their buildings for community and voluntary sector use. That is why I was mystified when I raised the issue in Prime Minister’s questions today. He had a bizarre brief on swimming pools in Tudor houses. We do not have many swimming pools in Tudor houses in Blackpool, but we have many of the churches and places of worship to which I referred. Incidentally, although it will suffer massively from this proposal, this is not just an issue for the Church of England. Many of the reformed and independent Churches, the Roman Catholic Church and other denominations and religions also do immensely valuable work.

[Sir Alan Beith]

I declare an interest as chairman of the Historic Chapels Trust, which is restoring a Catholic church in Blackpool. Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that when alterations were taxed differently from repairs there was a perverse incentive to alter rather than merely repair, but that the Government could help a lot if they were prepared to put more money into the fund that churches can use to bypass VAT?

[Mr Marsden]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention and I pay tribute to his work as chairman of the Historic Chapels Trust. I can only say, however, that I know of no examples in Blackpool where such a process has been the driver. The driver in Blackpool has been to make churches, such as the town centre church, St John’s church, and Holy Trinity church in South Shore, accessible for community meetings and so on. As has rightly been said, this is the big society in action.

Blackpool also has a Salvation Army citadel. It does an immense amount of good work, not least with the homeless community. If it wants to make alterations to its buildings to expand the outreach services and community use it currently offers, it will, as a result of this proposal, face a whopping 20% extra in VAT on any building or alteration work. That is a recipe for stopping all that good work nationwide. As I indicated to the Prime Minister earlier, that is shooting the big society in the foot. It is absolute nonsense.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter referred to the listed places of worship grant scheme. I deplore Ministers’ attempt to cloud the issue by saying that they have thrown £5 million into the pot for the grant scheme. Treasury Ministers and the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport are perfectly aware that that will not address the issue, in any shape or form, of the losses that will be made under this process.

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

Would it be appropriate for the Minister to say whether the Government consulted the Churches’ Legislation Advisory Service and whether they were aware that the Churches were responsible for nearly half the grade I listed buildings that this proposal will affect?

[Mr Marsden]

It would be absolutely appropriate, not least because there seems to have been scant consultation with any of the Churches or other religious groups or places of worship on this issue. Perhaps the Government would like to start taking notice of the e-petition on this issue, which already has more than 16,000 signatures. Anne Sloman, chair of the Church Buildings Council, wrote to the Chancellor last week stating:

“a very large proportion of the alterations to these buildings…are concerned with making these buildings viable for use by the wider community by installing meeting rooms, lavatories and kitchens. This is the Big Society in action. The imposition of 20 percent VAT…means…most of it will simply stop.”

In conclusion, this is a nonsensical policy. At the end of holy week, the Prime Minister piously talked about the Church in action, but at the same time he let this howler through in a Budget that he claimed to have read line by line. I appeal to the Treasury Front-Bench team, if it is worth appealing to them on this matter, to take notice of what is being said across the Committee. They ought to do a little more line-by-line consideration of this proposal’s perverse effects if they want to dissuade people from the general judgment often passed—possibly very cynically—that some officials and others in the Treasury do indeed know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

[Nicholas Soames]

I believe that there is a great deal in the Budget to applaud and support, but on this issue I wholly agree with the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden), who has just sat down, and the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), who put it very well. I also know that my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) has written a powerful letter about this matter.