Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Bill (Eighth sitting)

Lloyd Russell-Moyle Excerpts

Thursday 16th September 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Matt Western]

The lack of corporate knowledge or rock of collective experience that legislation should be based on is really surprising. I would have thought that such errors would be corrected and noted, and always and forever be related to anything in the higher education realm. I would have also thought that there were many in this place—there may be more of them on the Government Benches—who have been to the likes of Oxbridge or Durham and who would be more familiar with them. I do not mean that lightly; I think it is factually true. Personally, I did not attend them, so I am not so familiar with how those institutions work in terms of their governance. It is a simple point, but the error should not have been repeated.

On Second Reading, the shadow Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), forcefully made the point that numerous collegiate institutions affiliated to a central university would be outside the scope of the legislation in its current form. It is easy to think about existing Oxbridge-type institutions, but what about future-proofing the higher education sector and the changes that may affect affiliate and collegiate associations between higher education providers? That important point was picked up by Members on both sides of the House, and rightly so. It is good to see the Minister taking the feedback on board, and I hope that we will see some further evidence of that arising from yesterday’s sittings.

I have a small point to raise in relation to amendment 3 and an apparent exemption. The Minister spoke about the MCRs and JCRs at the likes of Oxford, but I do not know why they should be exempt. Any groups associated with a university or a higher education provider, whatever its size or shape, should be covered. If the legislation is honest in its intent, why should any be excluded from it? What justification could there be for preventing a student body at an Oxbridge college from being covered by the Bill?

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is it not in fact troubling? The JCR system is operational at only a few universities, so a few universities will end up being exempt, or have student bodies that are exempt, while the vast majority will not. There is clear inequity there. Will it not prompt other bodies to be unnecessarily created, or reconfirm the unfair and often undeserved privileged status that some so-called elite universities have in this country?

[Matt Western]

I thank my hon. Friend for his well made point. It could indeed reinforce those existing privileges, or lead to a complete breakdown of the SU structures and change to institutional structures too, with disaffiliations and so on. We must be careful about the message that that sends out.

--- Later in debate ---

[John McDonnell]

rose—

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

rose—

[Michelle Donelan]

I really am going to conclude now, as we must move on. Colleges have a vital role in the protection of freedom of speech, which is a fundamental value for all of society, but especially in our world-leading higher education providers, as I am sure hon. Members agree.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Emma Hardy]

My right hon. Friend makes an extremely valid point: there is not that protection. I again refer hon. Members to the written evidence. This is not written evidence from some small organisation that does nothing; it is the Free Churches Group of England and Wales. It is a group of higher education institutions.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

I am thinking not about invitations to external speakers but about students—students’ unions, where there are students of opposing views. The Bill says:

“the use of any premises occupied by the students’ union is not denied to any individual or body on grounds specified in subsection (4)”—

belief and so on. We need to be clear—perhaps the Minister can come back and clarify this on the record, which would help—that when we say “any premises”, we do not mean that the students’ union cannot decide which rooms are used. It is not that someone has the right to say, “I want to meet in the Christian prayer room,” or, “I want to meet in the Muslim prayer room to talk about things that would be inappropriate for those spaces.” Students’ unions must have the right to say, “Yes, we give you a free speech platform, but we decide where within our premises we do that.” Or sometimes they might say, “Not those premises, but we have other premises down the road that you can meet in.” The phrase “any premises” gives that indication. Often, chaplaincies use university premises.

[Emma Hardy]

That is exactly right. I refer again to the written evidence, which says:

“We are concerned about the drafting of Points (3) and (4) in section A1 of the Bill, repeated later in connection with Students’ Unions. These clauses have to do with the provision or denial of premises and appear to prohibit both the making and the denial of such provision on the basis of ‘ideas, beliefs or views.’…Our advice is that these clauses are ripe for a variety of interpretations or misinterpretations, with unhelpful unintended consequences possible and even likely.”

The Free Churches Group goes on to say:

“Clause 3 (a) as explicated by clause 4 is similar to Section 43 of the Education (No.2) Act 1986, but in a new context.”

That is the point it is making. The submission continues:

“The clause says use of premises cannot be denied on the basis of ideas, beliefs etc. It has, as far as we know, led to no problems so far and that may continue to be the case. However, inserting it into this Bill, with its strengthened requirements, lack of clarity, and temperature-raising highlighting of a very few cases as justification for the Bill, may affect its previously benign record.”

I accept that I was rushed in putting together these amendments—the Clerks were very helpful—and this might not be the exact wording that the Minister wishes to use, but the question of premises and when something can be allowed or not needs to be addressed. We need that reassurance. As I say, these amendments are meant to be not about denying opposition or other people’s point of view, but about just having some respect about where they are held.

That goes back to the point made so eloquently by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington about some events needing to be done in consultation with other groups and people within the student union body and the higher education system to ensure that such things do not happen.

I do not believe for one moment that any hon. Member in Committee would think it acceptable to hold an anti-Islamic debate in an Islamic prayer room and I do not believe for a moment that the Minister or the Government intended that when drafting the Bill. I am saying, with the helpful intervention of my right hon. Friend, that people could join those groups, they could invite someone to be provocative and they could insist on the debate taking place in particular premises, which would cause incredible upset for many people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Western]

My hon. Friend is right: there is an issue about how this will work across diverse organisations in the sector. It is problematic because it means that yet again there is one rule for some and another rule for others. When we are discussing, debating and writing legislation, we cannot allow that difference to be compounded in it. It seems absolutely wrong.

I listened with real interest to the conversation that my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham and his counterpart the hon. Member for North West Durham had about some of the issues that they face on a local campus regarding certain organisations. My right hon. Friend cited particular problems with some of the Chinese-based societies and how they might be acting. This is nothing specific about China—it includes other groups as well—but to amplify that point, if we are not careful such groups will ensure that they are extracted from the remit of the legislation so that they are able to act freely and beyond this law. I urge the Government to take on board this very straightforward, sensible, consistent and pragmatic new clause and include it in the legislation. It is really important, and I am sure that we will hear more from my colleagues.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

The reason the new clause is important is that it would include all bodies that students might interact with in their role as students, to ensure that the promotion of freedom of speech happens. I will come on to rebut some points that I think the Minister incorrectly made about JCRs, but I first want to talk about the chilling effect. We have heard a lot about it, but if we are to believe what we hear about the chilling effect, it is because a culture has set in—particularly in the student body—in which it is allowed to run rife.

As we know, large parts of student activity are not necessarily in the classroom or lecture theatre; in fact, many students complain that they do not have enough lecture and seminar time. That is a regular complaint of students nowadays because fees are so high. We could have an interesting argument around what the purpose of university is—whether it is instruction, or to enable students to have a wider experience of intellectual endeavour—but I will put that to one side.

However, if the effect is to exclude a swathe of student life and to allow that chilling effect to continue to circulate, the whole point of the student part of the Bill is defeated. The education part or university part? Okay, that is fine. But with the student part, what will still happen, of course, is that students will still be afraid to speak up in lecture theatres, because in the non-regulated part of their student experience they will still not have the culture of free speech and they will be shunned if they do speak up. They will not speak up and feel like they can have their own views, because in one part of their life the chilling effect is not because of formal institutions, but partly because of informal cultures. And if we are not tackling those cultures in all aspects, then we will not deal with this issue. That is why, for example, this measure should extend to JCRs and MCRs.

Earlier, the Minister said that JCRs do not run their own booking systems. That is not correct for all JCRs. St Mary’s College at Durham University runs its own booking system for its JCR. When a student wants to make a booking, they go on to the JCR website and fill in a JCR form, and the JCR allocates a booking. With some of the Oxford colleges, students have to go into the Oxford system, for the whole university, and I have just found that out after 10 minutes of Google research into how the booking systems work. I am sure that a fuller analysis would show that the picture is more complicated, which is why we need to include JCRs and similar facilities explicitly in this measure, so that it is clear.

[David Simmonds]

It may be that there is a degree of misunderstanding. When I was a student at a college that had a structure with a JCR, MCR and senior common room, the president of the JCR was someone who would become a future Labour Member for Corby.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

A good man.

[David Simmonds]

He was a very good man, and is a good friend of mine. However, a key point about that organisation is that it is not autonomous. So although the JCR has its own bar, the JCR, the MCR and the SCR—the three academic components of the college—are all supervised by, and under the control of, the college’s governing body. So they are not autonomous.

Therefore, although it is the case that a student could book a room, rent a tennis court or something like that, if it is in the ownership of that JCR, the college—as a constituent part of a university—supervises and controls the JCR’s activities. So the JCR is directly accountable, as a part of the college and a part of the university, and it is not autonomous in its own right.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

Neither are student unions. The Education Act 1994, which I am probably the only Member of Parliament to bang on about, because most MPs will talk about previous Education Acts, requires universities to supervise all student unions, just as they would JCRs. It requires universities to ensure that the finances of student unions are conducted fairly and to oversee the policy of the student unions, so that the universities fulfil their duties under other Education Acts, such as ensuring freedom of speech. So what the hon. Gentleman just said is the case with all student unions.

However, this Bill sees fit to mention student unions specifically, even though they are regulated—in terms of their policies, their funding, their use and their terms regarding discrimination—by the university and by the Charity Commission.

[Emma Hardy]

On the point about the regulation of student unions, it is worth pointing out that one of the criticisms of the Bill is that it introduces new and varied ways of regulating student unions, which, as we know, are also regulated by the Charity Commission. So some of the issues that we will seek to address as we get further through the Bill are about exactly which layer of regulation student unions are meant to follow first, because, as the Bill is drafted, the situation seems to be incredibly confusing.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

That is quite right. One of the problems with the Bill, as my hon. Friend suggests, would be where there was an activity run by a student union, and someone felt that something had been denied and wanted to seek redress. But the student union is funded by the university, which most student unions are now—most do not rely on commercial income for the bulk of their income, because of the changing nature of students. The money is not gathered from bars that make a big profit. Gone are the days of NUS Services Ltd being the biggest beer purchaser in the country. My uncle, who used to be the director of Whitbread, used to love going to the NUSSL conferences and flogging cheap beer. Those days are just gone. The students union gets money and it uses the facilities of the university, but despite that we will now have a situation where someone could complain to the student union and complain to the university. That is very confusing, but it is not quite the point of this new clause, so I must redirect back to that.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Simmonds]

Without wishing to labour the point, I think the Minister is absolutely correct in the position she has taken. The junior common room is a component part of the college, so all its complaints processes and its supervision are inherent in its nature as a component part of the college. There is not a requirement to bring it within the purview of the legislation in the same way as there is for a student union, which is a separate institution with its own governance. It is already covered by its very nature.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

That may be, but the Minister said that JCRs do not have control of their own bookings, their own policies or their own finances, and that is not quite true, if we compare them with student unions. I do take the hon. Gentleman’s point that junior common rooms are not automatically registered with the Charities Commission, for example, but I am not sure that, legally, there is anything preventing them from registering. That would be an interesting legal point.

Each junior common room, again, is slightly separate. We had a quasi-junior common room system set up at Lancaster University when that was created, to model the Oxford system, but it was significantly different, because the system of Lancaster University was different and was based in halls and housing, much of which is now run by private institutions based at the university campus because of the private finance initiative systems and so on that we have in many universities. Again, for those junior common rooms that are now often in private student halls because they had a residential-based junior common room system, how is it regulated? They are on campus, but they are private blocks now, run by private service providers. It would be clearer if we included everyone.

[Emma Hardy]

This debate highlights the wildly differing amount of resource that many of these different student unions and organisations have. It seems ludicrous that we would not directly include a JCR or MCR, with the resources and finances it has, but we probably will include, as I have mentioned before, my beloved Hull College higher education institution. It comes down to an issue of fairness. I respect the point the hon. Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner makes, but if we are going to directly regulate one form of student activity within organisations, why not simply regulate and direct them all?

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

I will move away from the JCR, where we will maybe not seek agreement. I must admit I am not as au fait with the Oxford-Cambridge-Durham JCR system as maybe I should be, because I am a child of 1960s-based universities—quite literally; I went to a crèche in one—but there were, and are, equivalent JCRs run in different forms that do not follow the Oxford and Cambridge form, which therefore might not be included in this.

I come on to what I would call not a JCR, but a student space—student facilities provided alongside accommodation. Accommodation, even when it is on university campuses, which for the larger part it is not, is mostly run by private providers. The university will recommend that provider; it might even have a contract with that provider to provide a certain number of student halls. The facilities for those students—sometimes including the bar, and often including meeting spaces and recreational activities—are all provided by that private provider. Bookings are done by that private provider. The private provider might well organise a student committee of the residents to help to run that and facilitate it—in a way that is similar, I guess, to how a JCR committee would run those facilities. But they are not a student union; they are not a JCR in the Oxford-Cambridge sense. They are running a common room for students who live in those halls, but they would not be regulated by this provision, and the danger is that those spaces more and more often are being used to invite speakers, because students are self-organising, and of course people will go through all this stuff again—the ridiculousness of having to close curtains or shut down meetings which would seem totally legitimate. From a student point of view, they are using a student space that is designed only for their educational use.

[Emma Hardy]

Listening carefully, as I am, to my hon. Friend leads me to think, which I had not done before, about purpose-built student accommodation and the common spaces there. When I shadowed this brief, we had huge issues about students paying rent for things that they could not use, and that deepened my understanding that purpose-built student halls of residence are often provided by private providers. The question is whether this Bill would apply to their common room space as well. I would seek clarity from the—[Interruption.] The Whip just shouted something over to me that I missed. Perhaps the Minister could clarify the matter when she comes to make her remarks.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

It might well be that the Minister can—[Interruption.] I am not sure that I am allowed to ask the Whip to speak, but he was muttering something under his breath that I did not quite hear. Let us say that we had another amendment, with slightly different wording, which was specific to, for example, student halls, places that are focused on students, places that the university authorises for students to be exclusively at—like student halls but also other student clubs. For example, I have known universities that, rather than having a student union-run bar, will make an arrangement with a commercial bar provider to provide a student-specific bar with student-specific meeting rooms. It might well be that an amendment that just ensures that the duty is extended to commercial providers would be better than this amendment. I am open to that, but we need something; otherwise there is a real danger, particularly with universities moving more and more to commercial partnerships.

[John McDonnell]

rose—

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

I give way to John—my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington.

[John McDonnell]

I have never known him to be so affectionate. [Interruption.] I can’t help myself. The complexities of this are amazing. The hon. Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner and I are both ex-Birkbeck. If someone joins the Birkbeck student union, they are then a member of the junior common room at the School of Oriental and African Studies and therefore have access to the SOAS junior common room bar, and can book it for meetings, invite speakers and so on. Again, I am not sure of the status or the independence of the student union at Birkbeck, or the status of the relationship with the SOAS junior common room, and therefore of the line of accountability for control of the premises. Unless the Bill is all-encompassing, it will introduce myriad problems.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

We had the equivalent discussion with regard to academics; we talked about what would happen with a visiting academic. Yes, they would be protected in their own institution, but they would not necessarily be protected as a visitor, so that is why we put forward amendments. We have the same issues about, in effect, visiting students. This applies particularly to London. London University, as a federal university, will have overlapping student unions. Unfortunately, we have seen the demise of the University of London union, which is a great shame for the University of London. I think that, bizarrely, was done for political purposes. I am convinced that the last few presidents and leaders of the University of London union were too-left-wing rabble-rousers. It was fed up with it, and fed up with the London Student newspaper being too much of a pain, and it shut it down, so that is an example. Would this Bill prevent the shutting down of the University of London union, which was shut down in my—

[The Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury (Michael Tomlinson)]

On a point of order, Mrs Cummins. I wonder about the relevance of this. The hon. Gentleman will forgive me for having interrupted him earlier by muttering from a sedentary position, which I do not do now; I rise to make it perfectly clear. Is this at all relevant to the amendment or clause?

[The Chair]

I am sure that the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown heard that point of order, and that he will bring his remarks, which will be directed at the amendment, to a conclusion.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

The point here is other student bodies. It is about when they are not directly a student union, which is what we are debating now. Our amendment would extend to all student bodies, whether or not they are directly part of the institution. That is why it is relevant to this clause. It seeks to cover an exclusively student body––not a general pub down the road––that has a relation just with students from that institution or from other institutions and that should also have some of these basic duties. If it does not have them, there is a real danger of loopholes here.

I will move on from talking about the type of provider, but there are other areas where this is relevant and important, such as non-affiliated societies. According to the lawyer we heard in evidence, the Bill would extend to the day-to-day activities of each individual society. I can understand saying to the student union, “You must allow the society to meet.” That is fine. This is about allowing societies to do that. But our understanding is that that society must fulfil the principles of the Bill. That would mean that there were two different legal frameworks for a non-affiliated society that was for all other purposes a student society in that university, and for an affiliated society.

If we go back to the essence of the chilling effect with an external speaker, a student does not necessarily know whether it is an affiliated or non-affiliated society. When an event is cancelled or a speaker is no-platformed or whatever we are worried about happening––again, I am not sure that the Bill is necessary, but these are the accusations and evidence that we heard––the danger is that the chilling effect still happens. The speaker is cancelled, the event is postponed, the society is shut down and students say, “I cannot talk about those things,” even though it might have happened in a non-affiliated space. It is important to extend that duty to all exclusively student bodies.

[Emma Hardy]

I hope that the Minister is listening, because we are trying to be as helpful as possible. Affiliated societies tend to rely on the assurance offered by being affiliated directly to the student union, and are therefore less likely to have huge sources of their own income. Non-affiliated student societies tend to have external financial support, from other countries or organisations. It comes down to equity and fairness, which is the point my hon. Friend is making about non-affiliated organisations with external support. I cannot see how the Bill would be relevant to them if they are not part of the student union, even though as my right hon. Friend––my hon. Friend rather––keeps saying, they are comprised almost entirely of students.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

Exactly. We know that a number of these non-affiliated societies already exist. There is a particularly large network of Chinese student unions or Chinese student societies that receive large amounts of funding from the Chinese Communist party. Of course, their role is to be beacons of a chilling effect around campuses. They will have a property on the edge of the campus that might not be affiliated to the campus but will be open exclusively to students at that institution, and that institution will often advertise that society as the place for students to go. There are a number of ways around this. Again, I am not saying that the wording of the new clause is perfect, but we could say that the institutions would have to make it clear that such societies are not to be recommended unless they fulfil the general duties in the guidelines. We could say that institutions cannot recommend organisations that have not fulfilled the basic guidelines. That would include housing providers, but it would also mean that Chinese student societies that do not fulfil the duty could not be recommended as places for students to go locally. All of these are options that I urge the Minister to look at; otherwise, we have inequality, and there needs to be some balance.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Before I call Lloyd Russell-Moyle again, although we want as wide and inclusive a debate as possible, I ask Members to ensure that interventions are interventions.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

This is a significant new clause, and it is the only new clause relating to this matter. As people will know, I am particularly passionate about student unions and student representation, so I hope the Committee will forgive me for my detail and enthusiasm in this area.

There is another way that this issue could be dealt with by the Minister, if she does not want to accept the new clause but will accept something else. That would be to say that, although there is a general duty on student unions to ensure that all who wish to have access can do so, it does not regulate the detailed workings of student societies. In my view, that would be preferable. However, I am not sure it would necessarily fulfil the desires of some of the Members on the Government side. For example, it would mean that the UN women’s society at Oxford, which disinvited Amber Rudd and got the wrath of the national papers, would still be entitled to do that. We have to make a choice: either we want to allow societies to be bloody rude—I think it is extremely rude to invite someone and then disinvite them, and I have no truck with that—

[The Chair]

May I interrupt the hon. Member and ask him to reconsider his language?

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

I am terribly sorry. I did try to reconsider my language. It was a very rude thing to do. “Bloody” should be used only in the sense of the blood that runs through our veins, and nothing else.

It is very rude to invite someone and then disinvite them, and I do not condone anyone who does that, but we have to have equity. We either have to have all societies able to invite and disinvite people, and to be as rude as they want, or we have to say that it is not acceptable in an academic space because it creates a chilling effect, and then we have to say that no society can do that. We cannot have a two-tier system whereby we say, “If you happen to have affiliated to a student union or institution, you get it, but if you set up shop outside and everyone thinks that you’re that society, it is acceptable.” There lies the real danger, but there are options here.

Finally, I want to touch on the role of such unions as the Oxford Union, the Cambridge Union and the Durham Union. They have been real bastions of free speech, and I do not suspect that they would have any problems with the duties covering them, too. We all know that often they have been the ones that have continued to say, “We want all different people to come, debate and talk.” But we cannot create a law based on the long-standing position of the Oxford, Cambridge and Durham unions—to name the most famous but not necessarily best student debating societies in the country—because they have had an historical foundation, whereas almost every other debating union and society in our country is regulated because it forms an affiliated part of an institution. I do not think it is fair that a few ancient universities get different privileges from the newer universities. That is a dangerous division.

We need to ask whether a debating club made up exclusively of students is regulated or not. The Minister needs to make a decision. I hope that she will say that she has accepted the point. She may not agree with the detailed wording, but I hope she says that she will go away and make sure that the provision applies to either all student societies or none, and either all student spaces or none. That should also cover the commercial sector—bodies with whom an institution may have commercial relationships.

[Michelle Donelan]

Any transgression of freedom of speech and academic freedom goes against the fundamental principles of the higher education sector in England. It is therefore essential that our universities are places where freedom of speech can thrive for all staff, students and visiting speakers, so they can contribute to a culture of open and robust intellectual debate. Student unions provide support and services to their members and their universities. It is therefore appropriate and essential that the legislative framework is extended to cover student unions directly.

The extension of the duties imposed only on higher education providers will ensure that freedom of speech is protected to the fullest extent. This will ensure our universities can continue their long and proud history of being a place where views may be freely expressed and debated. Clause 2 will provide the legislative framework to extend these important duties to student unions at approved fee cap providers—a category of registered higher education providers. It will insert two new provisions into the Higher Education and Research Act 2017. Proposed new section A4 provides that student unions will be required to take reasonably practicable steps to secure lawful freedom of speech for their members and staff; for students, members and the staff of the provider; and for visiting speakers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Western]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for illustrating and articulating the point that I was alluding to, but was not being specific about. I am sure the Minister will have listened to the important point he makes.

I understand the Minister’s point about these groups being covered on campuses, on premises that the university may control, but how would that apply to, for instance, the private properties in Leamington that are used by Warwick University?

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

The Minister said in her useful intervention that if it is a university property, it will be regulated, but we are talking about private property that the university does not run but just directs students to. The university has a big signpost saying, “This is our accommodation,” but as soon as students step over the threshold, the university has no regulatory role, no delivery role—no anything role. What is provided in that property is student space, meeting rooms and accommodation. That is the nub of what we are trying to get to.

[Matt Western]

It is exactly that. I will not spin the wheels and repeat exactly what my hon. Friend has said, but perhaps the Minister would like to respond.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Western]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. My colleague wants to make a short related point, and I will respond to both together.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

This is the nub of the contradiction. That is why some of us suggested that the Minister could, to be consistent, remove student societies from the regulation. If students come together and organise a club that just happens to affiliate to the student union—even if they are totally autonomous and there is no role for the institution—the Bill regulates them. If they decide not to affiliate to the institution, but do everything else the same, the Bill does not regulate them. All I am saying is that it needs either to regulate them or to say that it regulates the student union but does not go down further to regulate the constituent parts—for example, a speech at the student Conservative club should not require monitoring by the office of diktats.

[Matt Western]

It is about affiliation, or the decision of groups to disaffiliate from the student union, as well as how private property will come into play. We have simply said that it should be all or none. We cannot have a two-tier system for this regulation.

The new clause is very simple and straightforward. It is pragmatic and would bring about sensible changes and protections, which is what I thought the Government were trying to do. At the end of the day, without such changes the whole legislation is exposed for what it is and will not deliver the protections that the Government believe they are going to introduce.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Michael Tomlinson.)