Crown Estate Bill [ Lords ] (Second sitting)

Llinos Medi Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 6th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Llinos Medi (Ynys Môn) (PC)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 12—Devolution of Crown Estate powers to Wales—

“(1) The Crown Estate Act 1961 is amended as follows.

(2) After section 7 (powers of Minister of Works in Regent’s Park) insert—

‘7A Commissioners’ functions in Wales

(1) The Treasury must set out a scheme to transfer all the existing Welsh functions of the Crown Estate Commissioners (“the Commissioners”) to the Welsh Ministers or a person nominated by Welsh Ministers.

(2) The existing Welsh functions under subsection (1) are the Commissioners’ functions relating to the part of the Crown Estate that, immediately before the transfer date, consists of—

(a) property, rights or interests in land in Wales, and

(b) rights in relation to the Welsh zone.

(3) The Secretary of State must by regulations set a date to implement the scheme under subsection (1) to the transfer of functions to the Welsh Ministers or a person nominated by Welsh Ministers.

(4) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (3) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.’”

This new clause would require the Treasury to devolve Welsh functions of the Crown Estate Commissioners to Welsh Ministers or a person nominated by Welsh Ministers.

[Llinos Medi]

The new clause places a duty on the Treasury to transfer management of the Crown Estate in Wales to the Welsh Government within two years of the commencement of the Bill. This would correct the glaring imbalance in the constitutional settlement of the UK whereby Wales is unable to direct and benefit from its own natural resources in the way that Scotland can. There is an overwhelming majority in favour of devolving the Welsh Crown Estate; it has been called for by the independent commission on the constitutional future of Wales, the national infrastructure commission for Wales and the Labour Welsh Government. I note, sadly, that the Welsh Government have failed to submit any written evidence in favour of devolution to this Committee.

Half of all Welsh councils have passed motions calling for the devolution of the Crown Estate, with more preparing motions for the coming weeks and months. Devolution is also supported by 58% of the population of Wales, according to the latest polling—a clear majority. The Government have argued consistently that devolution of the Crown Estate would “fragment the market”. I note that that is the same position as the previous Conservative Government, which is why the former Labour Secretary of State for Wales, Lord Hain, was right when he said, during the Lords Bill Committee, that this position

“reflects old, centralised, conservative, anti-devolution Whitehall thinking.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2024; Vol. 840, c. 18.]

Scotland is also a proof of concept that a devolved Crown Estate does not impede investment or fragment the market. If there can be a smooth and orderly transition of the management of the Crown Estate to Scotland, why not the same for Wales?

On Second Reading in the Commons, the Government argued that devolution would complicate existing processes and potentially delay grid connectivity reform, as well as the further development of offshore energy. Let me take those points in turn. First, with proper planning and a guarantee by the UK, working with the Welsh Government, to protect reserved interests, including the national grid, it would reduce the risk of impediments to ongoing reforms. That is why new clause 5 includes provision to ensure that the Treasury acts to secure reserved matters, such as the national grid, as part of the transfer of the management of the Welsh Crown Estate to the Welsh Government.

Secondly, on the potential further delays to offshore development in Wales, a devolved Welsh Crown Estate creates the opportunity for it to be strategically integrated into the planning of sub-sectors, including offshore wind in Wales. Looking again at Scotland, devolution has allowed for greater alignment between marine energy planning and licensing for renewable energy projects, such as offshore wind. With a devolved Crown Estate, the Scottish Government have taken a sectoral marine planning approach for offshore wind. They have made a specific plan for offshore wind development that provides the strategic frameworks for seabed leasing for commercial-scale offshore wind by Crown Estate Scotland. While England, Wales and Northern Ireland will have various forms of marine plans that the Crown Estate must have regard to, they cover a wide variety of policy areas and are not sector-specific.

The Welsh Government have a number of other areas that overlap with the responsibility of the Crown Estate in conducting early development of offshore wind. Those include their devolved responsibility over Welsh ports and responsibility for education in Wales, including skills and apprenticeships. These are crucial for the development of robust local supply chains for offshore wind projects. Wales could integrate a devolved Welsh Crown Estate into Welsh devolved plans and responsibilities, leading to a more strategic and joined-up approach to offshore development. In this way, devolving the Crown Estate is about not just profits from renewable licensing, but driving economic development in Wales. That would surely be a more attractive proposition to developers. The Government cannot continue to hide behind the excuse that devolution creates uncertainty. Yes, devolution will mean change.

[Noah Law (St Austell and Newquay) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Member recognise that the potential devolution of the Crown Estate in Wales could cause no end of issues for the fair distribution of supply chain and economic benefits in communities, alongside their Celtic neighbour in Cornwall, for example?

[Llinos Medi]

That is why we have asked for a two-year approach, so that we can work together. It has happened in Scotland and it is possible. I think it is only fair that we ask the new UK Government, who want to devolve local authorities and regions in England, for devolution of the Crown Estate in Wales as well. It was another Labour Secretary of State, Ron Davies, who said:

“Devolution is a process. It is not an event and neither is it a journey with a fixed end point. The devolution process is enabling us to make our own decisions and set our own priorities, that is the important point.”

I urge this Labour Government to heed those words and support my amendment to devolve the Crown Estate to Wales.

[Pippa Heylings (South Cambridgeshire) (LD)]

I will speak to new clause 5 and to new clause 12 which calls for the devolution of the Crown Estate to Wales. While Scotland has controlled its Crown Estate since 2017, Wales has been left without these powers, despite the fact that vast Crown Estate assets lie within its borders. It is time to correct that unbalance and bring Wales into line with Scotland. Devolving control of the Crown Estate would not only recognise Wales’s status as an equal nation, but deliver substantial economic benefits to communities across Wales. Under the current system, profits from the Crown Estate flow directly to the UK Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Murray]

I thank the hon. Member for Ynys Môn for tabling new clause 5, which would require that within two years of the day on which the Act commences, the Treasury must have completed a transfer of the responsibility of the management of the Crown Estate in Wales to the Welsh Government. It would allow the Treasury, by regulations, to make provision about the transfer relating to reserved matters as necessary, and would require it to make provision to ensure that the employment of any person in Crown employment is not adversely affected by the transfer of responsibility.

I also thank the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire for tabling new clause 12, which would require the Treasury to set out a scheme to transfer all existing Welsh functions of the Crown Estate commissioners to Welsh Ministers or a person nominated by Welsh Ministers. The Welsh functions would consist of the property, rights or interests in land in Wales and rights in relation to the Welsh zone.

The Government believe there is greater benefit for the people of Wales and the wider United Kingdom in retaining the Crown Estate’s current form. Both new clauses would most likely require the creation of a new entity to take on the management of the Crown Estate in Wales which, by definition, would not benefit from the Crown Estate’s current substantial capability, capital and systems abilities. It would further fragment the UK energy market by adding an additional entity and, as a consequence, risk damaging international investor confidence in UK renewables and disrupting the National Energy System Operator’s grid connectivity reform, which is taking a whole-systems approach to the planning of generation and network infrastructure. Its reform aims to create a more efficient system and reduce the waiting times for generation projects to connect to the grid.

[Llinos Medi]

For clarification, does that plan not include Scotland, which has already been devolved?

--- Later in debate ---

[James Murray]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that a collective approach to projects such as those in the Celtic sea, which cross English and Welsh administrative boundaries, can increase a return for the UK Consolidated Fund, which benefits people in Cornwall, Wales and other parts of the UK. It ensures that we get the best return on our investment through Crown Estate activities. Our concern about the proposition in the new clauses is that it would undermine such revenue generation for all our public services, as well as disrupting the emerging market in offshore floating wind at a critical time, when what investors need is stability, certainty and confidence to invest in a growing sector, not organisational change that might undermine the investment they seek to make.

To pick up further the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth, were Wales to benefit only from the income generated in Wales, it would likely receive zero or negligible benefits for several decades to come, because Welsh assets are relatively new and it will take them time to mature—in the order of 10 to 15 years. The Crown Estate has shown itself to be a trusted and successful organisation, with a proven track record in effective management and profit generation, which are valuable outcomes that we need to be careful not to undermine.

As I set out earlier, the Government supported the inclusion of clause 6, which will require the appointment of a commissioner responsible for giving advice about Wales. I will not repeat what I have already set out, but it is important to underline that that will help to ensure that the board of commissioners for the Crown Estate continue to work in the best interests of Wales, alongside their existing duties as commissioners. That will certainly strengthen the Crown Estate’s ability and mission to deliver benefits for the whole UK.

I am aware that hon. Members may not agree with the points I have made, but I hope that I have set out clearly why the Government believe the existing structure remains the best approach. I hope hon. Members feel able not to press their new clauses.

[Llinos Medi]

I thank the Minister for those comments; I will come back on a few of them.

This debate is about fairness. We are asking for fairness and equity for Wales, and parity with Scotland. It is important to give a bit of history. Our natural resources in Wales have been extracted from our communities yet, as I mentioned earlier, by the end of this decade 34% of children in Wales will live in poverty. If the money we are discussing was spent back in Welsh communities, it would have a dramatic effect.

--- Later in debate ---

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Llinos Medi]

I beg to move, that the Clause be read a Second time.

The new clause would require the Crown Estate commissioners to transfer all profits generated by the Crown Estate in Wales to the Welsh Government on an annual basis. Although figures for the profits generated in recent years by the Welsh Crown Estate are not available, the figures from across the whole Crown Estate show that overall profits have increased dramatically. Since 2021, there has been a 408% increase in Crown Estate profits and therefore the profits from Wales have likely seen a similar level of increase.

Even if one accepted the Government’s argument that devolution of the management of the Crown Estate would involve too much risk, that does not justify profits generated on assets in Wales not remaining in Wales. Therefore, will the Government outline whether they support the principle that all profits generated through Welsh natural resources should be kept in Wales, as is the case with Scotland?

Some argue that Wales would not benefit financially from the devolved Crown Estate given the impact on the devolved Welsh budget. However, the Scottish model already demonstrates how profits from the Welsh Crown Estate could interact with the devolved Welsh budget. In Scotland, all profits from the Scottish Crown Estate are paid into the Scottish Consolidated Fund and redistributed for public spending. These profits interact with the Scottish block grant adjustment mechanism, which was agreed with the Treasury under the 2016 Scottish fiscal agreement.

The mechanism removes a portion of the block grant as the profits from the Scottish Crown Estate increase, to avoid Scotland gaining twice over. That is due to the Scottish budget benefiting from a Barnett share of the expenditure in England, supported by Crown Estate revenues arising from England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Crown Estate Scotland has estimated that net revenue profits in 2023-24 will be £113.5 million. The current reduction to the Scottish block grant under the adjustment mechanism will be £10 million, which should result in an estimated usable revenue from the Crown Estate Scotland for the Scottish Government of £103.5 million.

If Wales followed a similar approach to Scotland, it would likely gain additional revenues from the Crown Estate and would have only a small proportion removed from its block grant in return. That would occur through a Welsh block grant adjustment mechanism to be negotiated between the Welsh Government and the Treasury. Will the Government look at opening discussions with the Welsh Government on retaining profits in Wales and establishing a fair block grant adjustment mechanism to account for rising profits over time? It would be up to the Welsh Government to decide what to do with the money from the Crown Estate.

Plaid Cymru has proposed targeting investment into deprived communities in rural Wales and our deindustrialised valleys, and using the money to develop a Welsh sovereign wealth fund. However, that is not within the scope of the new clause. I hope the Government will listen and agree to the new clause, thereby endorsing the principle that profits generated in Wales should remain in Wales.

[The Chair]

Do you wish to say anything, Mr Wild?

--- Later in debate ---

[James Murray]

I thank the hon. Member for Ynys Môn for tabling new clause 6, which would require that the commissioners must transfer all net revenue profit generated from the Crown Estate’s activities in Wales to the Welsh Government on an annual basis. As The Crown Estate’s operations are not divided into business units for each nation, calculating the exact net profit figure attributable to Wales is not straightforward, because most of the associated costs cannot easily be disentangled from the Crown Estate’s overall costs and would, in places, require subjective judgment.

Furthermore, as I set out earlier, given that the Crown Estate takes a long-term approach to investments, it is anticipated that its investments in Wales could take up to 10 to 15 years to see an appropriate return. Therefore, if net profits were transferred to the Welsh Government now, they are likely to be zero or negligible. I hope that explanation was helpful and that the hon. Member feels able to withdraw the new clause.

[Llinos Medi]

I am unsure how the Minister can say that we would not receive any profits when the Government cannot work out what profits Wales generates. It feels a bit difficult to understand that argument.

I am fighting the corner for fairness for Wales. We have lost all our natural resources and that has been feeding the UK machine. Unfortunately, we are seeing poverty on the rise and deindustrialisation in communities. The new clause would see the profits that are generated given back to those communities, to be spent in those communities and on their future.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Llinos Medi]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 8—Publication of lease fees—

“In section 2 of the Crown Estate Act 1961 (reports and accounts), after subsection (4) insert—

‘(4A) In their accounts the Commissioners must publish details of all individual lease agreements with public bodies in—

(a) Wales,

(b) England, and

(c) Northern Ireland.

(4B) The information provided under subsection (4A) must include the value and name of the agreement.’”.

This new clause requires the Crown Estate to publish, in its annual accounts, a list of all lease agreements it has with public bodies in Wales, England and Northern Ireland including each lease’s name and valuation.

New clause 9—Publication of separate reports for England, Wales and Northern Ireland—

“In section 2(1) of the Crown Estate Act 1961, at end insert—

‘(1A) In addition to the report under subsection (1), the Commissioners shall produce a report on the performance of their functions each year in each of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

(1B) The Commissioners shall lay—

(a) a copy of the report in relation to England before both Houses of Parliament,

(b) a copy of the report in relation to Wales before Senedd Cymru, and

(c) a copy of the report in relation to Northern Ireland before the Northern Ireland Assembly.’”.

The new clause would require that the Crown Estate Commissioners report separately for each country and for the devolved legislatures to have the report laid before them.

[Llinos Medi]

I note that since 2021 the net revenue profit and asset value data for Wales has not been published by the Crown Estate. The Crown Estate says that the reason for this is that:

“While in the past, we have produced illustrative figures for Wales, we have since shifted our focus to a more holistic approach to assessing value and increasing our investment, and we realise that such figures are not a fair reflection of value. The previous Wales numbers we published have not included a cost allocation.”

In an answer from September 2024 to my written question asking about the merits of producing regular disaggregated assets and revenue data for Wales, the Government said:

“To achieve efficiency in its operations, the Crown Estate runs many of its functions at a whole enterprise level. As a result, separate financial statements for Wales would not reflect the fact that expenditure is incurred for the benefit of the whole portfolio, and it is not possible to disaggregate net revenue profit attributable to Wales.”

I also note that the Government accepted an amendment to the Bill in the House of Lords to include national commissioners for England, Wales and Northern Ireland on the board of the Crown Estate. The amendment also grants Welsh Ministers and the Executive Office in Northern Ireland the right to be consulted about the Welsh and Northern Irish appointments. Therefore, can the Government outline how these national commissioners will be able to advise on the affairs of each respective nation if there is no process by which the Crown Estate can measure and delineate the profits and costs incurred separately in England, Wales and Northern Ireland?

New clause 7 would address this gap by requiring annual reporting of both asset value and revenue across all nations under the Crown Estate, and by doing so, it would require the Crown Estate to develop a way to measure asset value and revenue in a consistent manner. I hope the Government will accept this amendment to strengthen the ability of national commissioners to fulfil their intended role to advise and act in the interests of the nations they represent on the Crown Estate board.

I turn to new clause 8. Under the current arrangements, many public bodies, such as local authorities, pay lease fees to the Crown Estate simply to lease the land in their own area. However, details of these are not routinely published. In response to my written question in October 2024, the Government noted that,

“Publishing details of those fees would risk prejudicing the commercial interests of both The Crown Estate and the local authorities involved.”

However, local authorities are able and willing to provide this information through freedom of information requests. These FOIs have revealed that in 2023 local authorities in Wales paid fees amounting to well over £300,000 a year. At a time when council budgets are under enormous pressure, how can these fees be justified? This is public money that vital council services such as housing, education and social care are being deprived of.

We should be having a debate on the merits of these fees. This has to start with total transparency and a full account of what is being charged and where. That is why I have tabled new clause 8, which requires the Crown Estate to publish in its annual accounts a list of all lease agreements it has with public bodies in Wales, England and Northern Ireland, including each lease’s name and valuation. I ask the Government to support my new clause for the sake of transparency and to agree that, where public money is being spent, the public should be able to see where this money is going.

New clause 9 is similar to new clause 8. It would require that the Crown Estate commissioners report separately for England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and that the devolved legislatures have these reports laid before them. The Crown Estate already produces highlights reports for Wales and Northern Ireland. This amendment would place this type of reporting on a statutory footing by ensuring that these reports are made available to both the Senedd and the Northern Ireland Assembly, and would allow for greater transparency and engagement between the Crown Estate and the devolved legislatures. Diolch.

[James Murray]

New clause 7, tabled by the hon. Member for Ynys Môn, would require the Crown Estate to disaggregate reporting in its accounts to show capital and revenue figures for the activities of the Crown Estate in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. At present, the Crown Estate’s operations are not divided into business units by nation. It would therefore not be straightforward to disaggregate reporting in that way. It would be a complex task, requiring a series of highly subjective judgments to be taken. Although it is possible to identify gross revenues from each nation, reporting them without any representation of the costs associated would be entirely misleading. However, the Crown Estate does publish broader information relating to its activities in England, Wales and Northern Ireland as part of its annual report and accounts. The Government’s view is that it remains appropriate for the Crown Estate to continue its reporting on a whole-business basis. I hope that that explanation is helpful and encourages the hon. Member to withdraw her new clause.

--- Later in debate ---

As the Crown Estate’s operations are not divided into business units by nation, attempting to disaggregate performance in each nation is a complex task. The division of the Crown Estate’s performance by nation would inevitably require a high degree of subjective judgment that would likely be misleading. It is therefore the Government’s view that it remains appropriate that the Crown Estate continues to report on a whole-business basis, supplementing its annual report with a Wales review that highlights its activities in Wales. On that basis, I hope the hon. Member feels able to withdraw the new clause.

[Llinos Medi]

This is a leadership discussion—it is about the leadership we are asking the Government to show in giving Wales the fairness it deserves. We are asking for clarity around public money. I am a bit concerned that there should be a commercially sensitive discussion around public money, which is meant to be transparent. We can get it through freedom of information requests, so it should be easy to collate that information so that the people of Wales and across the United Kingdom can see how their local authorities are spending their money on the Crown Estate and where that is spent afterwards.

In addition, I am unclear about the role of the commissioners. The information that we are asking for in these new clauses would strengthen the role of the commissioners and give them the ability to fulfil their role for the benefit of those regions whose concerns they are there to voice. I will press this matter to a vote.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.