Transport Funding: Wales and HS2

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Westminster Hall

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

Diolch. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Sir Edward. I congratulate the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) on securing this timely debate on the eve of the Budget and the comprehensive spending review.

How Wales has been treated in relation to HS2 is a scandal of epic proportions, and it highlights why the British state does not, and never will, work for Wales. HS2 has been funded purely and totally by public investment, which means that Welsh taxes that have been paid into the general Treasury pot are being utilised. That is different from HS1, which was financed completely via private means. If anyone thinks that I am arguing against public investment in rail, that is not the case. I am arguing that if public investment is used to fund a major rail infrastructure project, the allocation of public funds becomes an important political topic.

Despite the confusion about future phases of HS2, with news reports this weekend indicating that future phases might run on existing routes north of Birmingham, the reality is that the HS2 project dominates UK rail infrastructure spending and will do so for many years. It is likely that the whole project will not be completed until the middle of the next decade.

When the last Labour Government promoted HS2, the projected costs were nearly £40 billion. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) said, the costs are now estimated at well over £100 billion by the independent Oakervee review, despite the Treasury’s desperate attempts to cut costs. Lord Berkeley, the review’s deputy chair, put the costs at more than £170 billion. Regardless of HS2’s finished costs, the key question for the debate and for Welsh transport is its impact on Welsh funding.

Rail infrastructure is not devolved in Wales as it is in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The cross-party Silk commission, set up by the Cameron Government in 2010 to look into the constitutional settlement, advocated equalising railway powers in the Welsh settlement with those of the other constituent parts of the UK. Even before HS2 came online, the commission understood full well the financial implications for Wales of those powers being retained in Westminster.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. There has been one significant material change since the original costing for HS2, in that since last year, Transport for Wales—Wales’ transport network—has been in public ownership under the operator of last resort. Given that the train system is in public ownership, surely Network Rail should also be devolved to align public spending most effectively in Wales, along with the proper funding. There is a staggeringly obvious discrepancy and inconsistency between those two things.

[Jonathan Edwards]

As always, my right hon. Friend makes a pertinent point. It does not make any sense that the responsibility for operating the railways in Wales is devolved to the Welsh Government but the responsibility for the infrastructure remains in the hands of another Government.

To return to my point, the Silk commission recognised that the devolution of those powers and the equalisation of powers for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, was right not only for operational reasons, but because of the financial implications and the historical underfunding of the Welsh railways that resulted from the powers being retained in Westminster.

Small Breweries Relief

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Monday 9th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts]

It is of course an honour to be intervened upon by the hon. Gentleman. I really appreciate his intervention, and I will touch on that matter further. In the time in which we find ourselves, our breweries have been affected as much as the pubs that have been closed, and the pubs have received considerably more support than the breweries in the difficult recent months.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for securing this debate and bringing this issue before the House. She mentioned the tax relief that helped small brewers to compete against the large companies. Does she suspect that these large companies have been bending the ears of the Treasury?

Commission on Justice in Wales

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 22nd January 2020 Westminster Hall

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. There is a sense that we can learn from and compare with the other nations within the United Kingdom, if we have the information and the means to act upon that. That is invaluable for each of those nations.

In the last 21 years of devolution, the power of our National Assembly has expanded and its confidence as an institution has grown. Now, in 2020, Welsh Government policy made in that Assembly has a greater impact on the lives of the people of Wales than ever before, yet extraordinarily my country still operates without a corresponding legal jurisdiction, despite having a full law-making legislature, its own Parliament, the Senedd.

In the broader sense, that means that while devolution divergence is expanding Wales-specific legislation, it is being enacted without the underpinning structures of jurisdiction. That creates a jagged edge, duplication, a lack of accountability, additional costs to the citizen without transparency, and confusion. As the commission’s report says, the people of Wales both need and deserve a better system. Justice is not an island; it should be truly integrated into policies for a just, fair and prosperous Wales.

I hear myself using these abstract words, but of course justice is not an abstract concept; it is put into action or it does not exist. It is put into action through a range of agencies—education, social services, health and housing—all of which are devolved to the Senedd. Does that matter? Yes, it does. Bingham’s first rule of law is that the law must be accessible and, so far as possible, intelligible, clear and predictable. That simply is not the case in Wales in the 21st century.

The commission’s report is comprehensive, but today I intend to concentrate on three areas: criminal justice, family justice and legal aid. There are not many other areas that are worthy of more attention, but I urge that we have further discussion, because this problem will continue to be exacerbated. It is serious, given people’s experience in Wales.

On criminal justice, the report states:

“If criminal justice is to be effective, most particularly its treatment of victims, in policing and in the administration of the sentences of the courts (the principal role of the prison and probation services), it must be closely integrated with services which are the responsibility of other parts of local, devolved and central government—for example, health, drug and alcohol misuse, housing, education, employment, accessing benefits and managing debt and other welfare services.”

That, again, is the jagged cutting edge of justice. Whether a criminal reoffends or not is, of course, that individual’s responsibility, but that does not absolve the state of any responsibility as the provider of justice. If the state’s criminal justice system has contributed to the breakdown of family bonds, the release into homelessness, a failure to grasp the opportunity to address health issues such as addiction, and the likelihood of unemployment implicit in the toxic combination of low skills and a criminal record, what has it achieved, save to tighten the vicious circle of criminality?

I want to mention the case of Conner Marshall, whose inquest concluded last week. I pay my respects to Conner’s parents, Nadine and Richard, for their courage and perseverance in seeking justice for their son, and to my colleague and friend, the late and dearly missed Harry Fletcher, who supported the family in their search for answers. Conner was only 18 when he was murdered by a violent serial offender released on licence and on the books of community rehabilitation company Working Links.

Last Friday, the coroner in the inquest into Conner’s murder said that the probation caseworker of Braddon, the offender, was “overwhelmed” and

“essentially left to her own devices”

in what is an extremely challenging job at the best of times. Conner’s murderer had missed eight probation appointments, six of which were sufficient to return him to prison. The coroner—this is important—noted that that was not the fault of the probation officer. She had a case load of 60 offenders and was new in her post. Rather, Conner’s death was the collateral result of a failed social experiment—an ideological concept put into action by a Conservative Secretary of State for Justice in the belief that the profit motive of private enterprise can be trusted with a public good. Who would ever suspect that private companies might interpret contractual payment targets to reduce criminal acts by the simple means of seeing, hearing and recording no such acts? Clearly not the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling). It is to the credit of the former Secretary of State for Justice, David Gauke, that he recognised the abject and costly failure of the transforming rehabilitation programme, and that Wales led the way in bringing probation back into public control with the new National Probation Service of Wales.

The case of Conner Marshall revealed how difficult it was for his family to get to the root of the circumstances leading up to and following their son’s tragic death, but the lack of hard data about the crime and offenders in Wales, disaggregated from the wider England-and-Wales picture, was also an issue for the commission. The crime survey for England and Wales warns that separate estimates for Wales are subject to sampling volatility and variability, and that extreme caution should be taken in interpreting figures under the present reporting arrangements when trying to extract Wales-specific data. I am glad to note, however, that CSEW intends to produce Wales-specific estimates for the first time this summer.

Additionally, it is distressing to note that the then Secretary of State for Wales effectively enforced a veto by insisting that all requests from the commission to UK Ministers and entities had to be passed by him. That caused a significant delay to the commission in receiving evidence, which the commission itself expressed. Indeed, in May 2019 he said that he

“did not think it would be appropriate for UK Government Ministers or officials to give evidence on reserved policy to a Commission established by a devolved administration.”

Such high-handedness does not engender confidence that the needs of the citizens of Wales were foremost in his mind.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

My right hon. Friend is making a fantastic speech and a very persuasive case, based on the commission’s evidence. Do the UK Government’s heavy-handed dealings in relation to the commission’s work indicate that their objection to devolving these powers is based not on practicality but on ideology?

No Deal: Agriculture Tariffs

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 16th July 2019 Westminster Hall

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Will my hon. Friend take this opportunity to invite Ministers not just to the Royal Welsh show next week but to Balla Mart, which will be held on 31 October, when perhaps 800,000 small-body lambs will come to market at a time of considerable pressure on prices?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s intervention, because it takes me to my next point. If we are locked out of European markets, there is no way in which domestic consumption could pick up the slack. Additionally, the final quarter of the year sees the sale of light lambs from Wales, which are traditionally destined for export. There is no way in which they could be redirected into domestic consumption. Economists previously assumed that the loss of the EU market would depress UK farm-gate prices by 30%.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that valid intervention. Those are the remedial measures that the British Government should be looking at urgently to protect our domestic farm producers. We are all aware of the imbalance there has been in the supply chain over many years, with, as he said, producers under the barrel of the supermarkets. The situation may well be exacerbated by what comes in the following months.

To return to my point, economists believe that farm-gate prices will fall by 30%. With an additional 800,000 lambs on the domestic market at the end of October, farm-gate prices will come under additional pressure. I therefore call on the British Government to commit, on top of the measure mentioned by the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), to additional funds for Wales to be able to implement contingency plans should the worst happen and we find there is unsellable surplus on the domestic market. There would be a disproportionate impact on Welsh agriculture.

In other sectors, the British Government have elected partially or completely to dismantle tariff walls on most products. Tariff rates of 45% for beef, 0% for eggs and 22% for poultry meat will apply for imports into the UK from the EU and the rest of the world, while our exports of those products to the EU will face tariffs of 84%, 19%, and 48% respectively. In the dairy sector, only certain products—such as cheddar with a 7% tariff and butter with a 15% tariff—will be afforded some degree of protection, with the EU applying tariffs of 57% and 48% respectively on those products.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his time. Does he agree with Dairy UK’s analysis that the toxic combination of WTO tariffs on exports aggravated by zero tariffs on imports will cause a massive shock to raw milk prices? That will affect big dairy sector employers such as farmer-owned South Caernarfon Creameries.

Aberystwyth to Carmarthen Railway Reopening

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 20th February 2019 Westminster Hall

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

My hon. Friend mentioned north-south links and talked about HS2. There is actually a north-south rail link on the west coast of Wales, but if someone wants to go by train from Aberystwyth to Porthmadog to Llandudno Junction, a critical part of their journey will be on the delightful but steam-powered Ffestiniog railway.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that intervention by my party’s parliamentary leader. I have long had an ambition to go on that rail line, but that shows the lack of serious investment in Welsh rail infrastructure over the years.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

My hon. Friend is right, and I congratulate him on his work since he was elected as the Member of Parliament for Ceredigion in pushing forward this whole project. He is absolutely right, and that is one of the benefits that I will mention later, because for health and other public services, having a spine rail line linking the two largest towns in the west of our country will be hugely beneficial.

Unless the British Government can be unhooked from their obsession with high finance and London, the structural imbalances of the British state economy of low productivity, low wages, and high personal debt will continue unabated—indeed they will get worse. The economist Grace Blakeley writes forcefully in the New Statesman this week about the need for an economic green new deal. The Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line fits into that sort of stimulus to a T. It is not just about the rail line itself, but how it would act as a literal economic spine. It would provide a much-needed north-south economic focus, which is a far more natural focus for those of us living in the west of Wales, as opposed to the obsession with east-west links. The communities are ideal for any economic strategy based on environmental investment because of our abundance of natural resources.

Too often, the missing link is physical connectivity. The line would open up significant opportunities for bulk freight movement, linking the western ports of Holyhead, Fishguard and Pembroke Dock with the southern ports of Swansea, Cardiff and Newport. If the west of my country was linked from top to bottom, it would link three universities—Bangor, Aberystwyth and the University of Wales’s campuses in Lampeter, Carmarthen and now in Swansea. The line would promote greater collaboration between two university health boards, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Ben Lake) said, and a range of other public services. It would make the hospital in Aberystwyth far more viable. We have a threat at the moment of services being restructured in the west of Wales.

Aberystwyth and Carmarthen are two of the largest towns in the west of my country, yet anyone who wishes to make that journey by train today would face an average journey time of seven hours and five minutes. The fastest possible route is five hours and 52 minutes. The old rail line closed to freight in 1973. Since 2000, calls to reopen the line have intensified. I pay tribute to the dedicated work of the campaign group, Traws Link Cymru. We were lucky enough to meet it a few weeks ago in the office of my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion, and it has done incredible work in developing the case. Its proposed route would use much of the existing line, with a new section from Alltwalis to Carmarthen, in the constituency of my friend, the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart). Stations along the route would include Pencader or Llandysul and Llanybydder in my constituency, and Lampeter, Tregaron and Llanilar in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion. The expected journey would be one hour thirty minutes, compared with the more than two hours 20 minutes that the bus service takes. Despite the slow march of the bus route, it provides a service for more than a quarter of a million people per annum. The link would have a huge impact on Welsh connectivity, providing for a figure-of-eight system for Wales and reducing the rail journey between Aberystwyth and the capital city of Cardiff by more than two hours.

Opponents of the project will throw back the cost-benefit analysis. However, more than 55,000 people live on the proposed route, compared with the 50,000 who live on the Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury line. The mid Wales line thankfully survived Beeching’s axe, and its passenger numbers are increasing, providing a vital link between Welshpool, Newtown, Machynlleth and Aberystwyth.

As a result of the Budget deal between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Labour Government, Mott MacDonald was commissioned to undertake a feasibility study on the project. It calculated that if the rail line was up and running by 2024, it would generate 370,000 trips. That would rise to 425,000 by 2027 and 489,000 by 2037. Public appetite for rail is growing and the Minister will be more than familiar with the incredible success of the Scottish Borders line since it was reopened.

In the case of Carmarthen to Aberystwyth and the link to journeys further north, we are talking about, in the words of “Lonely Planet”,

“one of the most beautiful countries in the world”.

What better way to appreciate the splendour of Wales than on a pan-nation rail journey, especially considering that 85% of all visitors into the catchment area of the rail line are day tourists. The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire made that point eloquently.

The report puts the approximate cost at £775 million. For the British Government, that is not a lot of money, and they have shown they can find the money when they need to, whether that is £1 billion to bribe 10 MPs from across the Irish sea or £5 billion to prop up this place for privileged politicians. The cost of refurbishing this place will go up considerably, I have no doubt. The report calculates that the project would create 2,584 gross jobs along the line, with only 144 of them directly attributable to the railway. It calculates that £170.1 million per annum will be created in gross GVA. I am confident that those figures could be magnified if a proper detailed economic strategy was put in place to increase the impact of the line.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I thank my hon. Friend for mentioning the old line between Afon Wen and Bangor. We talk about advantages for south-west Wales, but moving ahead with that line would replicate those same advantages in north-west Wales, which has just as much need of them and just as much need of improved transport links.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I fully agree with my hon. Friend. Wylfa Newydd, which is now viewed as a white elephant and is in grave danger, was seen as the saviour of the economy of the north of our country. The reality is that we need a major project in Wales; we need a major project in the west of our country.

Leaving the EU: Upland Farming

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 26th June 2018 Westminster Hall

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the future of upland farming after the UK leaves the EU.

Dioch yn fawr iawn, Mr Pritchard. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship and to lead this debate. I thank both the farming unions in Wales, NFU Cymru and the Farmers’ Union of Wales, for their help in preparing for this debate and for their overall contribution to supporting the farming industry in Wales and the wider rural economy.

Wales does not have a national animal in the way that New Zealand has the kiwi, Australia the kangaroo, Argentina the puma and South Africa the springbok. We have the splendid mythical Welsh dragon, of course, but if we were to have a living animal, a very strong case could be made for the sheep, or perhaps the ram. There are more than 10 million sheep in Wales, based on the latest annual survey, accounting for 33% of all UK sheep. That compares with human population of around 3 million, accounting for only 5% of the UK population.

The reason for the huge number of sheep livestock in Wales is the terrain and climate of my country. Wales is very mountainous and, as we know, even more wet. Some 82% of Welsh land is utilised for agricultural —purposes—an incredible figure when considering Welsh terrain—and 10% of UK agricultural land is in Wales. Agriculture contributes 400% more to direct employment in Wales than it does in the UK on average, if my reading of the British Government’s Brexit economic impact assessments is correct. With those statistics in mind, Welsh politicians should be extremely concerned about the likely impact of Brexit on this vital indigenous Welsh industry. We have far more to lose from a botched Brexit than other parts of the British state do.

The vast majority of farming land in Wales is designated a less favoured area. It is more suited to pasture than to arable farming. As a consequence, the Welsh farming model tends to be the traditional family farm based on livestock, rather than the crop-based farming that we tend to see in England.

In the late winter of 2010, before I was elected, I visited Mr Ian Rickman and his family at their Gurnos farm to undertake some work experience. Gurnos is high above the village of Bethlehem in the Tywi valley, near the Garn Goch. The Garn is one of the largest iron-age forts on the Brecon Beacons mountain range. It houses the monument to the late Gwynfor Evans, a national great, and the first Plaid Cymru MP elected to Westminster. He used to walk its slopes to gain solace and inspiration.

When I did my work experience, it was bitterly cold. The reality is that the only productive use of land at such altitudes is for sheep farming. During that experience, I gained a huge amount of respect for the sheep as an animal, but also for the families who endeavour to make a living out of hill farming. I assure you, Mr Pritchard, that there are far easier ways to make money and sustain a family. Let us remember that according to Welsh Government statistics, the average farm income in Wales is less than £30,000 a year.

These people, however, are from the land. Their families have worked the hills for generations upon generations, and have sustained a community, a culture, a language and a way of living that has lasted thousands of years. They have cultivated a natural landscape so beautiful that in 2017 “Lonely Planet” designated the north of my country one of the essential places to visit in the world. As beautiful as the north is, I would of course say that Carmarthenshire is best, but the critical point I am endeavouring to make is that the beauty of our country, and everything that goes with it, is not just something that happens naturally. It is the result of the work of the agricultural community and its livestock. Without that, Wales would not be the special place that it is; nor would it have the impact that it has, economically and socially.

Had I more time, I would have elaborated on the economic and cultural importance of agriculture, and its benefits for tourism, other sectors of the Welsh economy, and the Welsh language. My good friend Councillor Cefin Campbell, who leads for the executive board of Carmarthenshire County Council on rural development, has identified working with the agricultural community and young farmers’ clubs as a key cog in his strategy for regenerating the economy and preserving the language in Wales.

I realise that other Members want to speak, and I am grateful for the support I received before the debate from those Members, so I will move on. Farmers are a tough bunch, used to operating in a climate of fluctuating incomes and rapid market changes for their produce. European agricultural support has been the one constant in keeping their businesses sustainable. The European market is by far the biggest external market for Welsh agricultural produce, especially lamb. I have to say to the Minister that there is a huge amount of anxiety and foreboding about the future. I have held many meetings with farmers and unions since the Brexit vote, and anxiety is increasing as we move on. If this debate achieves only one thing, I hope it is that we can collectively begin to reduce those anxieties in the agricultural community.

We have to concentrate on three main areas that are vital for the future of hill farming: devolution, agricultural support, and trade. If it is the ultimate decision of the British Government to leave key European frameworks such as the single market, new frameworks of the territories of the British state will have to be created in their place to govern internal trade. I am not opposed to the creation of such frameworks, if the British Government do decide to shoot the economy in the foot by leaving the single market. Following Welsh independence, I would want the Welsh economy to be within a larger trading bloc; cross-border economic co-operation is a very good thing.

The key divide between Plaid Cymru and our Unionist opponents is that we believe that any common framework should be built and regulated by the four Governments of the state in co-operation—in a partnership of equals. Any decisions should be made on a shared governance basis, by a properly constituted UK council of Ministers, with a robust decision-making and dispute resolution process. They, on the other hand, believe that these matters should be decided in Westminster, and Westminster alone. That risks Wales becoming a permanent rule taker—or, as the Foreign Secretary might say, a vassal country within the British state. That risks English-specific frameworks being imposed on Wales, to the detriment of hill farmers in my country.

Admittedly, our position in Wales has not been strengthened by the contemptible capitulation of our country’s Labour Government, who accepted the changes. As Professor Tim Lang said recently in an evidence session of the External Affairs Committee of the National Assembly, when it comes to Brexit, Welsh interests are now “steamrollable”. As I said during a ministerial statement last week, the actions of the Welsh Government will go down as one of the biggest sell-outs in Welsh political history, and I can assure you, Mr Pritchard, that that is quite some achievement.

The 26 policy powers re-reserved by Westminster include vital agriculture-related policy areas such as agricultural support, fertiliser regulation, genetically modified organism cultivation, organic farming, zootech, animal health, animal welfare, food and feed safety, food labelling, public procurement, nutrition labelling, plant health and food geographical indicators. Welsh lamb holds EU-protected geographical indication status, of course, as does Welsh beef.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I thank my hon. Friend—diolch yn fawr iawn. Would he agree that it is time for the red meat levy—on animals that were reared in Wales but slaughtered in England—to come back to Wales, so that Hybu Cig Cymru can do an effective job on marketing that meat?

Autumn Budget as it Relates to Wales (Morning sitting)

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 7th February 2018 General Committees

[Jonathan Edwards]

Mae’r Bonheddwr anrhydeddus yn gwneud pwynt cywir iawn a byddaf yn dychwelyd i’r pwyntiau hynny yn hwyrach yn fy araith.

(Translation) The hon. Gentleman makes a very valid point, and I will return to the issues he raises.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

A fyddai fy Nghyfaill anrhydeddus yn cydymdeimlo gyda ffermwyr fyddai’n disgwyl gyda’r bunt wan y byddai defaid o faint bach yn gwerthu’n dda ar y cyfandir? Nid dyma’r neges a glywaf gan fy ffermwyr i ym Meirionydd.

(Translation) Does my hon. Friend sympathise with farmers who would expect smaller sheep to sell well on the continent, even though that is not the message that I am hearing from farmers in Meirionnydd?

[Jonathan Edwards]

Mae hynny’n wir. Roeddwn yn darllen rhywbeth ddoe bod disgwyl y bydd pris defaid, yn enwedig, a chig yn syrthio’n ddifrifol os mae Cymru’n ffeindio’i hunan y tu allan i’r undeb tollau. Mae’r peryglon ar gyfer y sector amaethyddol, sydd yn ein gwynebu yn y dyfodol agos, yn beryglus iawn. Mae ein arweinydd seneddol yn codi pwynt dilys iawn.

(Translation) That certainly is the case. I was reading something yesterday that said that the price of sheep, and of meats in general, is expected to fall significantly if Wales finds itself outside the customs union. The risks for the agricultural sector in the very near future are huge. Our parliamentary leader raises a very valid point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

Mae’r Bonheddwr anrhydeddus yn codi pwynt dilys. Ces i ddim y cyfle i wneud y pwynt yma yn ystod y ddadl, ond yn bersonnol byddwn i wedi moyn symud y Senedd allan o Lundain. Rydw i’n credu byddai hynny wedi bod yn symbol o’r angen i ddatganoli’n economaidd y Wladwriaeth Brydeinig. O ystyried bod y penderfyniad bellach wedi cael ei wneud—rwy’n llongyfarch y Bonheddwr anrhydeddus ar ennill ar ei welliant—dylem nawr fanteisio ar y cyfle i sicrhau bod y buddsoddiad hynny yn cael ei wasgaru ledled y Wladwriaeth Brydeinig. Rwy’n credu bod yna job wirioneddol i’w wneud ar hynny, ac rwy’n edrych i’r Bonheddwr anrhydeddus i gynnig arweiniad, o ystyried mai fe sydd wedi arwain y ddadl i aros fan hyn—dyna job fach iddo fe dros y blynyddoedd nesaf.

(Translation) The hon. Gentleman raises a valid point. I did not have the opportunity to make this point during the debate, but I wanted to move Parliament away from London, because that would be a symbol of the need to devolve the British states economically, too. Given that a decision has been made—I congratulate him on getting his amendment to that motion through—we should take every opportunity to ensure that that investment is spread across Britain. There is a real job to be done there, and I look to him to give leadership on that over the next few months, given that he has led the debate for remaining here.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Ar destun yr ardoll brentisiaethau, onid yw’n amser i ni gael mwy o eglurdeb ynglyn â chwmnïau gyda’u prif swyddfeydd tu allan i Gymru a gyda gweithwyr o Gymru, a’r arian sydd yn cael ei drosglwyddo o’r Trysorlys fan hyn i Gaerdydd? Yn enwedig, mae’r ardoll o 0.5% yn cael ei chodi ar gyflogres pedwar Heddlu Cymru, ond nid yw hynny o ddewis Llywodraeth Cymru ac nid ydyw’n cael ei rhoi tuag at hyfforddiant yr heddlu.

(Translation) On apprenticeships, is it not time for us to get greater clarity on businesses that are headquartered outside Wales but have workers from Wales, with respect to the money that is transferred from the Treasury to Cardiff? In particular, the levy is raised on the four police forces of Wales, which can apply to their wage packets, but it does not come under the responsibility of the Welsh Government and it does not reach the police’s training budgets.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Mae hynny’n bwynt hollol deg o ran prentisiaethau plismona. Yn sicr, bydd Aelodau ein plaid ni yn ei godi yn y ddadl ar Lawr y Tŷ prynhawn yma. Y cwestiwn sylfaenol yw: pam y dylid gwario arian trethdalwyr Cymru ar brosiectau yn Lloegr tra bod Llywodraeth Prydain yn gwrthod buddsoddi mewn prosiectau Cymreig ac mewn gwirionedd yn torri addewidion megis trydaneiddio’r rheilffordd i Abertawe? Rydym ni wedi clywed lot yn barod am y pwnc hynny yn ystod y ddadl.

Os yw Llywodraeth Prydain eisiau codi cynhyrchedd mewn ardaloedd daearyddol sydd yn perfformio’n wael, rhaid iddynt ailgyfeirio buddsoddiad i’r ardaloedd hynny yn hytrach na lluchio popeth at Lundain. Mae pawb bellach yn cytuno bod buddsoddiad estynedig, tymor hir mewn seilwaith yn un o ragofynion llwyddiant economaidd. Os edrychwn ar fuddsoddiad o’r fath dros y degawdau aeth heibio, yr hyn a welwn yw cyfran anghymesur o fuddsoddiad o’r fath yn mynd i Lundain a de-ddwyrain Lloegr. Gallwn edrych ar HS1, lein y Jiwbilî, lein Victoria, Crossrail 1, Crossrail 2, yr M25 a HS2. Ni fu buddsoddiad cyffelyb yn unrhyw wlad na rhanbarth arall o’r Deyrnas Gyfunol. Pam? Oherwydd nifer o ffactorau, gan gynnwys agwedd Lundain-ganolog y pleidiau Unoliaethol. Gall hefyd fod oherwydd y modelau economaidd a ddefnyddir wrth werthuso buddsoddiadau o’r fath.

O ystyried y swyddi sydd wedi eu canoli yn Llundain, mae’r elw tymor byr ar bob punt a fuddsoddir mewn seilwaith yn debygol o fod yn uwch yno na mewn rhannau eraill o’r wladwriaeth Brydeinig. Mae hyn yn ei dro yn arwain at sbiral lle mae symiau cynyddol o fuddsoddiad trafnidiaeth yn mynd i Lundain, ac yn eu tro mae’r rhanbarthau tlotaf yn mynd a’r sbiral tuag at i lawr. Mae yma wers inni yng nghyd-destun Cymru. Fel dywedodd fy Nghyfaill anrhydeddus dros Geredigion, mae’r buddsoddiad gan Lywodraeth Cymru wedi’i anelu’n fwyfwy at Gaerdydd a’r de-ddwyrain yn hytrach na chael ei wasgaru ar draws ein gwlad.

Yn 2015-16, yr oedd gwariant cyhoeddus ar drafnidiaeth yn £973 y pen yn Llundain o gymharu â £444 yng Nghymru. Petai lefel y gwariant yng Nghymru yr un fath ag yn Llundain, buasem yn derbyn £1.6 biliwn yn ychwanegol y flwyddyn i’w fuddsoddi. Mae’r anghydraddoldebau cyfoeth mor ddifrifol yn y wladwriaeth Brydeinig fel y dylid anfon swyddogion y Trysorlys i’r Almaen i ddysgu gan yr Almaenwyr sut y gwnaethant ymdrin ag anghydraddoldebau cyfoeth daearyddol yn dilyn cwymp wal Berlin.

(Translation) That is an entirely fair point. Members of our party will return to that point on apprenticeships in policing in this afternoon’s debate on the Floor of the House. The fundamental question we must ask is why Welsh taxpayers’ money should be spent on English projects while the British Government refuse to invest in Welsh projects, and renege on promises such as the electrification of the main line to Swansea. We have heard much about that already. If the British Government want to raise productivity in low-performing areas, they must redirect investment into those areas, rather than throwing everything at London.

It is widely agreed that sustained long-term investment in infrastructure is a prerequisite of economic success. In recent decades, a disproportionate amount of that investment has been made in London and the south-east of England, such as that on HS1, the Jubilee line, the Victoria line, Crossrail 1, Crossrail 2, the M25 and HS2. There has been no comparable investment in any other country or region of the UK. Why? It is due to a number of factors, including the Unionist parties’ London-centric approach. It may also be because of the economic models employed in evaluating such investments.

Given the concentration of employment in London, the short-term return on every pound invested in infrastructure is likely to be higher there than in other parts of the UK. That, in turn, leads to a spiral, in which ever-increasing amounts of investment in transport go to London, and the poorest regions spiral downwards. I believe there is a lesson there for us about the Welsh context. My hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion made the point that Welsh Government investment is targeted more and more at Cardiff and the south-east, rather than being spread across the nation.

In 2015-16, identifiable public expenditure per capita was £973 in London, compared with £444 in Wales. If the level of spending in Wales were the same as it is in London, we would receive an extra £1.6 billion per annum for investment. The wealth inequalities are so important that Treasury officials should be sent to Germany to learn how it went about addressing the geographical wealth inequalities following the fall of the Berlin wall.

Essentially, Germany made a strategic decision to deal with the wealth inequalities in the reunified Germany, which was based on operating aids and tax incentives for the poorer regions, and the deliberate redirection of foreign direct investment into the poorer parts of the state.

Yn niffyg hynny, rhowch inni yng Nghymru yr arfau i fwrw ymlaen â’r dasg o adeiladu ein gwlad ein hunain, oherwydd dengys hanes nad yw aros am Lywodraethau San Steffan—o ba bynnag liw—i gyflawni pethau ar gyfer Cymru yn debyg o ddelio â’n problemau. Mae Cymru wedi dioddef nid yn unig o ddiffyg sylw a buddsoddiad gan Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol ond o flerwch llawer Llywodraeth Lafur yng Nghymru a’u hanallu i gyflawni. Mae eu hymdrech ddiweddaraf i greu strategaeth economaidd yn rhyfeddol am ei bod heb unrhyw ddangosyddion perfformiad allweddol i fod yn ganllaw i’r sawl sydd i fod i weithredu’r strategaeth ac i alluogi’r gweddill ohonom i fesur pa mor llwyddiannus yw’r strategaeth.

Roedd y Gyllideb yn wan iawn. Ystyriwn y gwyliau treth stamp. Dywedodd Pwyllgor Dethol y Trysorlys, Swyddfa Cyfrifoldeb y Gyllideb a’r Sefydliad Astudiaethau Cyllid y bydd polisi’r Llywodraeth o roi gwyliau treth stamp, y buont mor uchel eu cloch yn ei gylch, yn gwthio prisiau tai i fyny o ryw 0.3%, gyda’r rhan fwyaf o’r cynnydd yn digwydd eleni. Yn y Gyllideb, neilltuwyd £3 biliwn yn ychwanegol i gynllunio am Brexit. Felly yn hytrach na £350 miliwn yr wythnos i’r gwasanaeth iechyd, yr ydym yn gwario yn agos i £58 miliwn yr wythnos ar fiwrocratiaid y wladwriaeth Brydeinig—ac nid ydynt hwy, hyd yn oed, fel petaent yn rhoi’r atebion mae’r Llywodraeth eisiau eu clywed i’r cwestiynau nad oeddent eisiau eu gofyn.

Er iddynt gynnig rhyw godiad pitw o £2.8 biliwn i’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn Lloegr dros y tair blynedd nesaf, mae hyn yn edrych fel rhywbeth rhy fach yn rhy hwyr, gan ystyried y storïau yn y wasg dros y misoedd diwethaf. Yng nghanol argyfwng y gaeaf, gwelwn effeithiau tan gyllido cronig yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yn Lloegr. Mae’n amlwg na allwn ymddiried yn y Ceidwadwyr i ofalu am y gwasanaeth iechyd yn Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, dyw record Llafur yng Nghymru ddim llawer gwell. Fel gyda’r rhan fwyaf o bethau, maent yn siarad digon o eiriau teg yn San Steffan, ond lle maent mewn grym, mae’r stori yn wahanol iawn.

Mae’r newidiadau i’r credyd cynhwysol—universal credit—a chynlluniau i wneud i ffwrdd â’r cyfnod cychwynnol o saith diwrnod i hawlwyr pan na fuasent wedi bod yn gymwys i gael budd-daliadau, a lleihau’r cyfnod aros presennol o chwech wythnos i’r rhan fwyaf o hawlwyr i bump wythnos, i’w groesawu. Ond mae hyn yn gyfystyr, mewn gwirionedd, a rhoi plaster ar goes sydd wedi torri. Mae’r ffordd ddi-drefn y cyflwynodd y Llywodraeth y credyd cynhwysol, a’r modd y gweinyddir cynlluniau lles yn ehangach, yn gywilyddus. Mae ymwneud â chwmnïau preifat mewn lles yn anfoesol ac yn anghyfrifol. Ni ddylai cwmnïau fel Capita elwa o drueni pobl eraill. Rydym yn croesawu’r dreth ar werthiannau a gynhyrchir yn y Deyrnas Gyfunol a fydd yn effeithio ar fusnesau digidol mawr fel Apple a Google. Ond unwaith eto, fodd bynnag, gwyddom fod y Torïaid yn gwrthwynebu llawer o newid yn strwythur ein sustem dreth, sydd ar hyn o bryd â thyllau dianc sy’n caniatáu osgoi gwerth £13 biliwn mewn trethi, a pheidio â thalu mwy fyth. Doedd dim ymrwymiad penodol i gynyddu cyflogau gweithwyr y sector cyhoeddus, y rhewyd eu cyflogau—ac a gapiwyd wedyn ar 1%—ers 2010. Diolch i chwyddiant, mae hyn yn golygu fod cyflogau nyrsys wedi eu torri mewn gwirionedd o 14%. Mae Cymru yn dal i dderbyn llai y pen na Llundain. Yn anffodus, mae’r blaid Lafur yn methu gwneud yn iawn am y cam yng Nghymru, er fod ganddynt y pwerau i wneud hyn, fel mae’r Llywodraeth SNP wedi llwyddo i wneud yn yr Alban.

Mae Cymru’n dal yn derbyn llai y pen na Llundain. Yma mae rhai o gymunedau tlotaf Ewrop ac mae toriadau enfawr mewn cyllid o ganlyniad i Brexit. Mae’n her sylweddol i sectorau allweddol ein economi. Ac eto, mae’r Canghellor yn dewis defnyddio ystadegau fyddai’n fwy addas i un o fysiau mawr coch yr Ysgrifennydd Tramor i honni y bydd cynnydd o £1.2 biliwn yng nghyllid cyhoeddus Cymru o Gyllideb yr hydref. Roedd yn ddiddorol iawn yn ystod cyflwyniad yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol: wnaeth e ddim defnyddio’r ffigwr hynny yn benodol yn ei araith, gan ei fod yn gwybod, fel dywedodd arweinydd Aelodau Seneddol Cymreig y blaid Lafur yma heddiw, bod dros hanner yr arian hwnnw yn fenthyciadau—neu fiscal transactions—y bydd yn rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru dalu yn ôl.

Doedd dim sôn am drydaneiddio’r rheilfyrdd, sydd wedi ei ganslo er yr addewid a roddwyd; dim sôn am y morlyn llanw ym Mae Abertawe, a dim golwg ohono yn y Gyllideb; a chyllid i wasanaethau datganoledig rhyw £750 miliwn yn is nag ar ddechrau’r ddegawd. Dyna record y Llywodraeth Brydeinig pan mae’n dod at Gymru. Mae stori’r Gyllideb hon yn hollol glir: nid yw San Steffan yn becso am Gymru.

(Translation) Failing that, give us in Wales the tools to move ahead with the job of building our own country. History demonstrates that waiting for Westminster Governments of whatever colour to deliver for Wales is unlikely to address our problems. Wales has suffered not only from the UK Government’s lack of attention and investment, but from successive Labour Governments’ ineptitude in Wales and their inability to deliver. The latest effort to create an economic strategy is remarkable in that the strategy is without any measurable key performance indicators to guide those who are to implement it and enable the rest of us to gauge how successful its implementation is.

Let me turn to some specific aspects of the Budget, which was very weak. The Treasury Committee, the Office for Budget Responsibility and the Institute for Fiscal Studies stated that the Government’s policy of a stamp duty holiday, which they were so vocal about, will push house prices up by 0.3%, and that most of the increase will come through this year. The Budget provided £3 billion to plan for Brexit. Rather than the £350 million for the health service that we were promised, we are spending almost £58 million per week on bureaucracy in the British state. The bureaucrats are not even providing the answers that the Government want to hear.

The minute increase of £2.8 billion for the NHS in Wales is too little, too late, given the stories in the press in the past few months. The winter crisis has shown the impact of the chronic underfunding of the NHS in England. It is clear that we cannot trust the Conservatives to take care of the NHS in England. However, Labour’s record in Wales is not much better. Labour Members speak warm words in Westminster, but when they are in power the story is very different indeed.

The changes to universal credit, including the plan to do away with the initial period of seven days in which claimants cannot receive payments and the reduction of the waiting time from six weeks to five weeks for most claimants, are to be welcomed, but they amount to putting a plaster on a broken leg. The chaotic way in which universal credit was introduced and the way that welfare is administered more generally is disgraceful. The involvement of private companies is immoral and irresponsible. Companies such as Capita should not benefit from the misery of others. We welcome the introduction of a tax on sales generated in the UK, which will affect companies such as Apple and Google, but we know that the Tories are opposed to making changes to our tax structure, which contains loopholes that allow for the avoidance of £13 billion of taxation.

The Budget contained no specific commitment to increase public sector pay, which has been frozen and capped at 1% since 2010. Thanks to inflation, that means that nurses have had a real-terms cut to their salaries of 14%. The Labour party, unfortunately, has not put that right in Wales, as the Scottish National party Government managed to do in Scotland, despite having the power to do so.

Wales still gets less per capita than London. It has some of the poorest communities in Europe, and there are huge cuts to budgets as a result of Brexit, and significant challenges to crucial sectors of our economy. Yet the Chancellor chooses to use statistics that would be more appropriate for one of the Foreign Secretary’s red buses, to claim an increase of £1.2 billion in the Welsh budget emerging from the autumn Budget. It was interesting that the Secretary of State did not use that figure during his opening remarks, because he knows that, as the shadow Secretary of State for Wales said here on behalf of Welsh Labour MPs, more than half of that is fiscal transactions that the Welsh Government will have to repay.

There was no mention of the electrification of rail, which has been cancelled, despite the pledge that was given; there was no talk of the tidal lagoon in Swansea Bay, and no sign of that in the Budget either; and funding for devolved services is lower by some £750 million than it was at the beginning of the decade. That is the record of the British Government with respect to Wales. The story of the Budget is clear: Westminster does not care about Wales.

Wales and Borders Franchise

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 7th November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the previous franchise emphasised punctuality above all else in terms of success, and that for the next franchise to be a success, it must also include customer satisfaction in its criteria?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that intervention. My hon. Friend, who is the parliamentary leader of our party, serves on the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, which has done very detailed work on this issue and specifically on the initial franchise procurement. The Committee, which consists of members from across the House, was especially damning of how that franchise was constructed.

Let us fast forward to 2015, when the story of this not-so-great train robbery steps up a gear. The then Prime Minister, David Cameron, and his deputy, Nick Clegg, graced Wales with their presence to announce a new devolution deal. As part of the so-called St David’s day agreement, we were told that powers over the procurement of the next rail franchise would be devolved. The cheers at our national stadium, where they made the announcement, were reminiscent of those at a Six Nations match. Finally, we thought, Wales would get the power to create a rail system fit for our people. Sadly, as is often the case, that optimism was misplaced.

In the next section of my speech, I will try to piece together what is a complex picture of confusion, chaos and ineptitude by Governments at both ends of the M4. As is often the case with such matters, each individual element of the story seems unremarkable—inconsequential even. However, in the round, we see an intriguing episode of incompetence, which has already cost millions of pounds and could mean chaos for rail users in Wales.

The story starts just over a year ago, in September 2016. Combing through what was then the Wales Bill—it is now the Wales Act 2017— I spotted what I assumed was an error. Despite the Government’s boy scout promises, devolution of the franchise was not included in the Bill. Being the assiduous and diligent parliamentarian that I am, I decided to flag up that omission to the Secretary of State for Wales. Following the appropriate procedures, I tabled an amendment to the Bill that would devolve the franchise. On 12 September, in a Report Stage debate on the Wales Bill, I sought the Minister’s assurance that the error would be rectified. I said:

“Before I get into my speech, may I say that I will gladly not say a word”—

regarding devolution of the franchise—

“if the Secretary of State or the Minister intervenes to say that they will proceed with that promise and if they outline the legislative vehicle whereby these powers will be devolved to Wales?”

The Secretary of State replied:

“We are negotiating with the Welsh Government over the use of a transfer of functions order under the 2006 Act.”—[Official Report, 12 September 2016; Vol. 614, c. 671.]

The more naive may have thought that that was job done, but as a veteran of many a Wales Bill, I know that devolving powers is not such a simple task, so we continued to push. During the Welsh Affairs Committee inquiry into procurement of the next Wales and Borders franchise, my hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) repeatedly asked how the Welsh rail responsibilities would be devolved. Every time she asked the question, whether to a UK or Welsh Government representative, she met with the same complacent response, “It’s just a technical thing; it will all get sorted,” yet everything seemed not to add up. Why wait to devolve the franchise if we could already do so? Why risk waiting? Why circumvent parliamentary scrutiny? Why be so complacent about the powers required for a multibillion-pound contract? Was the reason ignorance, incompetence or something more sinister?

Thanks to my hon. Friend’s excellent work, people will find on page 13 of the report two recommendations calling on the UK and Welsh Governments to update the Committee on the progress of the talks on the transfer of functions and to ensure that there is effective scrutiny of the transfer of functions and the way in which the Governments have agreed to devolve the powers. Of course, neither of those recommendations has been followed.

On 13 October 2016, despite still not having any powers actually to procure the franchise, the Welsh Government announced four shortlisted operators for it: KeolisAmey, a joint venture between French transport giant Keolis and public service provider Amey; MTR Corporation, which has interests globally from Australia to Sweden and is based in Hong Kong; Abellio Group, which operates bus and rail networks across Europe and is the international arm of the Dutch national rail operator; and the existing German state-owned operator Arriva. Those were the only four to enter a bid to run the next franchise.

According to the original plan, the four bids would be assessed by Transport for Wales, a Welsh Government-owned company. Through a process of “competitive dialogue”, the four bidders would work to create one of the most ambitious franchises ever, with the south Wales metro and the rest of the Welsh network covered by a single operator.

Wales Bill

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Monday 11th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I can only agree.

[Jonathan Edwards]

As always, my hon. Friend is making a compelling case, full of strong arguments. Does she agree that it is slightly ironic that a referendum has just been won by those arguing for the UK to leave the European Union, partly on the basis of democracy and sovereignty, yet here we are, debating a Wales Bill which, compared with the settlement for Scotland and Northern Ireland, seems to deny sovereignty and democracy to Wales?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

With the Bill we are moving ahead in small steps—inching forward, painfully. I await the time when we will move ahead in a way that grants sovereignty to the people of Wales.

Many of the amendments that I have discussed so far were recommended by the Silk commission, as I mentioned previously. Other amendments in the group include amendment 85, which would remove prostitution from the list of reserved powers; amendment 117, which would remove the reservation of knives; and amendment 109, which would remove the reservation of abortion, to bring Wales into line with Scotland and Northern Ireland. Again, I challenge the Secretary of State to stand up and tell us why he voted for Scotland to have those powers, but is now telling us in Wales that we cannot have equivalent powers.

Amendment 155 is distinct in that it seeks to clarify a reservation contained in schedule 7A, and not to omit it entirely. The amendment would clarify as a reserved matter “the Crown Prosecution Service”, rather than the broader term “prosecutors”, as currently drafted. This amendment is crucial, as the existing wording of the schedule could prohibit Assembly legislation from enabling devolved authorities, such as local authorities and Natural Resources Wales, to prosecute. I hope that the Government will take note of this distinction and amend the schedule accordingly.

Amendment 156 would remove the necessity test in relation to the law on reserved matters. The test of necessity is objectionable on grounds of clarity and workability, as it is capable of a number of different interpretations. One possible interpretation is extremely restrictive and would represent a reduction in the Assembly’s current competence. The difference between a “reserved matter” and the “law on reserved matters” is explained in paragraphs 409 to 411 and 413 and 414 of the explanatory notes to the Bill.

The notes give the example of an Assembly Bill which related entirely to planning, which is not a reserved matter, but which modified a provision of a UK Act concerning telecommunications. That modification might be within the Assembly’s competence, as its purpose might relate entirely to planning, and so it would meet the test set out in new section 108A(6) of the Government of Wales Act 2006, inserted by clause 3. However, by modifying a provision of a UK Act of Parliament, which concerned a reserved matter, it would modify the “law on reserved matters”. The Assembly should be able to do so in a purely ancillary way, without also having to show that the modification made has

“no greater effect…than is necessary”.

An equivalent to the Bill provision is contained in the Scotland Act 1998. However, in the context of the Scottish devolution settlement, it is much less restrictive, as the Scottish Parliament has competence over considerably greater fields, including, of course, justice matters, and the Scottish system of civil and criminal law. Therefore, what might appear to be wider latitude for the Assembly would in practice still amount to narrower competence than that of the Scottish Parliament.

Amendment 157 would remove the criminal law restriction in paragraph 4 of schedule 7B and replace it with a restriction which provides that the Assembly cannot modify criminal law unless that is for a purpose other than a reserved purpose. It reflects the Assembly’s current competence—that is, the criminal law is a silent subject, and the Assembly can modify the criminal law if it relates to a devolved subject, or if the modification is ancillary. The Assembly, therefore, could not modify the criminal law if it was for a reserved purpose, thus protecting the criminal law around the 200 or so reservations in the Bill. The amendment would also make it clear that the Assembly could not modify the criminal law for its own sake: there must be a devolved purpose behind the modification of the criminal law. It would align the criminal law restriction with the private law restriction in paragraph 3 of schedule 7B. This would provide consistency and clarity.

I have already spoken of my party’s dismay that the Bill threatens in places to dilute, rather than augment, the legislative competence of the Assembly. In this vein, a number of the amendments in this group seek to clarify the Assembly’s powers in relation to its internal functions, as well as its overall competence to legislate. Amendments 148 and 149 seek to restore the Assembly’s competence closer to its current level. Currently, the Assembly is able to affect, in a minor way, matters that are listed as exceptions from competence in schedule 7 to the Government of Wales Act 2006. Most of these exceptions have been converted into reservations in the proposed new settlement—for example, consumer protection. However, under the new settlement, the Assembly would have no competence to legislate in a way that touches on reserved matters at all.

The Assembly can currently legislate in relation to “silent subjects”—that is, topics that are not listed either as subjects of competence, or as exceptions from competence, in schedule 7 to GOWA. The Assembly can do so only where it is also legislating on a subject that is specifically devolved by schedule 7. Many of these silent subjects—for example, employment rights and duties—have been converted into reservations in the Bill. The amendment would restore the Assembly’s competence to affect those topics in a purely ancillary way. However, that ancillary competence would still be narrower than the Assembly’s present competence to legislate on “silent subjects” when that legislation also relates to expressly devolved subjects.

In an attempt to allow the aforementioned institution to have control and oversight over its law making, amendment 6 would give the Assembly the power to consolidate, in both English and Welsh, the statutes containing the current constitutional settlement affecting Wales. No matter what our position on empowering the Assembly, I am sure we can all agree that it is important, whatever settlement we have, that that settlement is easily understood. It is disappointing that this Bill does not consolidate all existing legislation, but the amendment would allow the National Assembly to do that, in the interests of clarity. It would not allow the National Assembly to go beyond current legislation and broaden its competence.

Amendments 34 to 37 would amend paragraph 7 of schedule 2, which sets out the sections of the Government of Wales Act 2006 which the Assembly will have competence to modify. Paragraph 7(2)(d) specifically refers to those sections of part 5 of the 2006 Act which are amendable without restriction. As it stands, this does not include the ability to amend sections 120(1) or 124(3) of the Government of Wales Act 2006 which provide for “relevant persons”—otherwise known as “direct funded bodies”—which receive funding directly from the Welsh consolidated fund. That means, for example, the Welsh Government, the Assembly Commission, the Auditor General and the public services ombudsman for Wales.

Amendments 35 and 36 would allow the Assembly competence to add to, but not remove from, the list of “relevant persons”. It would allow it to enable a body that is independent of the Welsh Government also to be financially independent where that is deemed appropriate. Any use of such competence to add to the “relevant persons” would require an Act of the Assembly.

Paragraph 7 of schedule 2 provides that the remaining provisions of part 5 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 are amendable where the amendment is incidental to or consequential on a provision of an Act of the Assembly relating to budgetary procedures, and the Secretary of State consents to that amendment. I see no reason why the consent of the Secretary of State should be required to an amendment that will have no impact beyond the Assembly’s financial procedures, so amendment 37 removes that requirement.

On the remaining amendments in this group tabled in my name and the names of my hon. Friends, as I have already said, the majority of these amendments highlight areas of competence that are devolved to the Scottish Parliament, yet for some unstated reason are being reserved to Westminster in the case of Wales. No justification has been given for reserving those matters. Consequently, I shall list a number of amendments: 84, 87, 88, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 97, 98, 106 and 103. I give the amendment numbers for a reason. It feels like the Secretary of State is allowing Whitehall to pick and choose the powers it wants to hold on to. We argue strongly that he must draw up a list of reservations based on principles. These reservations make no practical sense and the absence of principle is obvious. They range from the reservation of dangerous dogs to hovercraft, sports grounds and health and safety. We need a reason why those areas should be reserved.

In addition, there are amendments 105, 107, 104, 112, 113 and 89, which is on Sunday trading and safeguards the long-standing tradition in Wales of protecting shop workers’ terms and conditions, and amendments 114 and 115. Over and above that, Plaid Cymru has long argued that Department for Work and Pensions functions should be devolved to the Assembly. Thus amendment 100 would devolve all working age benefits that are to be replaced by universal credit and any benefit that is introduced to replace universal credit. Amendments 101, 102, 108 and 99 all relate to those areas of DWP functions that we have long argued should be devolved.

Amendments 96, 61 to 63 and 69 deal with the newly created Welsh harbours of “reserved trust ports”. Once again, this creation has no justification. A port will now be devolved unless it has a turnover of above a certain threshold. Again, that is the case not for Scotland or Northern Ireland, but only for Wales. It is yet another example of Westminster holding on to as much power as possible while appearing to be offering significant devolution. Once again, I challenge the Secretary of State to tell us why this is necessary in Wales, when he voted to devolve full control to Scotland.

Amendment 2 is consequential on new clause 1, which seeks to devolve Executive and legislative competence of the Crown estate in Wales to the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales, as has been done in Scotland. New clause 7 would devolve general legislative competence in respect of agricultural, aquacultural and fisheries levies. Again, those are areas that Plaid Cymru has long argued should be devolved to the National Assembly.

Before I come to a close, I wish to note concerns expressed to me by the Welsh language commissioner regarding the Bill’s potential effect on the National Assembly’s powers to legislate in matters concerning the Welsh language. A possible effect of schedule 2 is that the National Assembly, should it wish to legislate for the Welsh language, would require the consent of the relevant UK Minister to confer, impose, modify or remove within that legislation the Welsh language functions of Ministers of the Crown, Government Departments and other reserved authorities. Under the current settlement, that ministerial consent is required only when legislating to impose Welsh language functions on Ministers of the Crown. The ministerial consent provisions of the Wales Bill in relation to the Welsh language would appear to be applicable to a wider range of persons than is currently the case, and would thus be more restrictive. I hope that that can be considered in the later stages of the Bill.

The amendments in this group should not be considered as mere separate, distinct “tweaks” to the Wales Bill. Rather, we present them as a collection of amendments, which, by their sheer number, make evident the many ways in which the current proposed legislation is deficient. No justification has been given by the Government as to why these many policy areas have been reserved, and no justification has been given as to why the Welsh Assembly should not be granted the same competence as the Scottish Parliament in these areas.

Wales Bill

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. The sheer weight of that evidence underlines the fact that we struggled to find other points of view.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Amendment 5 is very well worded, if I may say so, because it was drafted, word for word, by the Labour Government in Cardiff. They wanted a separate legal jurisdiction for Wales, and they promised it as a major pledge before the Assembly election. What does my hon. Friend think it will say about the authority of Carwyn Jones among his colleagues here in London if the Labour party does not support that amendment today?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I agree with my hon. Friend. I would expect there to be some concordance between both points of view, but that seems not to be the case.

Gwynfor Evans and Welsh Politics

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Westminster Hall

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that intervention, which shows the very close links between Plaid Cymru and the SNP. I shall be referring to the Hamilton by-election shortly.

Gwynfor’s victory was no fluke. In March 1967, Vic Davies won 39.9% of the vote in the Rhondda and cut the Labour majority to just 2,000. In 1968, the polymath Professor Phil Williams won more than 40% of the vote in Caerphilly, losing by only 1,800 votes, with a swing of 29%. The Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, was in a state of panic about the national upsurge in Wales and Scotland, where the SNP’s Winnie Ewing had won the Hamilton by-election in November 1967, so he set up a royal commission. The resulting report by the Kilbrandon commission was published in 1973 and recommended legislative Parliaments for Scotland and Wales.

For Plaid Cymru, Gwynfor’s victory led to representation in this House over the past 50 years by politicians of incredible calibre. Gwynfor was followed by Dafydd Wigley and Dafydd Elis-Thomas in 1974; Ieuan Wyn Jones in 1987; Cynog Dafis and Elfyn Llwyd in 1992; Simon Thomas in a by-election in 2000; and my direct predecessor, Adam Price, and Plaid Cymru’s current parliamentary leader, my hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams), in 2001. I was elected in 2010, and my talented hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) was elected in 2015. I genuinely stand on the shoulders of giants—politicians whose names will be celebrated in Welsh history for eternity. Without Gwynfor, though, it is highly unlikely that any of the aforementioned individuals would have graced this place and made their own vital contributions in developing our nation.

In this House, Gwynfor made his mark on a plethora of political subjects. His deep commitment on issues such as nuclear disarmament, industrial democracy, social co-operation and international concord allowed him to make a significant impact on Westminster politics. Men of conviction often face ridicule from their detractors. As they say, “First they ignore you, then they fight you, then they agree with you”. That was certainly the case for Gwynfor, who faced personal hostility unworthy of this House. However, much like other great political leaders across the world, from Ghandi to Mandela, at the time of his death there was a general recognition across the political spectrum that his contribution transcended partisan lines.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is a credit to Gwynfor Evans’ vision of nation building that the poll to which he referred earlier shows that Plaid Cymru’s support is at its highest ever level?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention. I definitely believe that we would not be where we are without Gwynfor’s contribution. Even if they did not agree with him, everybody accepted that he based his politics on principle, and that everything he did was aimed at creating a better Wales.

Gwynfor was born in 1912 in the Barry. He was brought up in a deeply Christian family, and his religious non-conformism was very important to him. Despite the huge political pressures on him, Gwynfor continued to teach Sunday school at his local chapel in Llangadog after moving to Carmarthenshire. While I was doing research for this speech, I learned of Gwynfor’s great love of cricket. He represented the Welsh schools team during the 1930 season. Since being elected, I have campaigned for a Welsh national side. Considering the fact that in the past decade our great nation has reached a rugby world cup semi-final and won three grand slams, and that tomorrow our football team will play for a place in the Euro 2016 final—I am wearing a Welsh national football tie in their honour—it is about time we had a national cricket team.

Gwynfor awakened to the cause of Wales while at Aberystwyth University. It must be contagious, as both myself and my hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd were fortunate enough to study there, as was the Under-Secretary of State for Wales—I am delighted to see him in his place and that he will be responding to the debate. I am informed that the piece of literature that sealed the proverbial deal was the masterpiece “The Economics of Welsh Self-Government”, by my political hero D. J. Davies. D. J. had written his booklet in 1931, and by 1934 Gwynfor was a fully paid up member of Plaid Cymru. As Gwynfor’s biographer, the BBC journalist Rhys Evans, said, that changed Welsh history:

“It was Gwynfor who created the national movement…Gwynfor was also the founder of the Parliament for Wales campaign…There is now a lasting memorial to that organisation in Cardiff Bay—it is the Assembly, the unmistakable symbol, for better or worse, of the desire of the people of Wales to live as a democratic nation.”

In 1937, Gwynfor became a member of the party’s national executive committee and by 1943 he was vice-president. Then, at the Llangollen conference of 1945, just five days before the atomic bomb exploded over Hiroshima, he was elected as president of Plaid Cymru, aged just 32. He would remain the party’s leading political figure for the next 36 years.

Despite his burning nationalism, it is important to remember that Gwynfor was a great internationalist. He was also a committed pacifist, so I am sure that he would have been proud that I am probably the only living person on Earth who has entered the Pentagon and proclaimed, in a meeting with the top military brass, that I am a member of an anti-war party. I am sure Gwynfor would have enjoyed my mischievous intentions.

For Gwynfor, his pacifism was arguably even more important than his nationalism, and he campaigned vigorously against the Vietnam war. His economics strongly supported economic units that are larger than nations, which I suppose is a lesson for Brexiters. He believed that a free market is a device that safeguards the individuality of nations. He strongly supported a British single market and I suspect that if he were alive today he would be doing everything he could to secure tariff-free access to the European single market.

It is not called “the national struggle” for nothing, and Gwynfor’s career is living proof of that. He had to overcome several bitter electoral losses. In his darkest moments, he would walk from his home in Talar Wen, near Llangadog, and climb the slopes of the Garn Goch. Like many of my fellow citizens, I find that our beautiful landscape is a source of endless inspiration and therapy. The love for our land and our people is the basis of our politics. It is fitting, therefore, that Gwynfor’s memorial is suitably located on that barren mountain, which overlooks the beautiful Tywi valley.

However, there is no doubt that for Gwynfor the biggest political blow was the devastating loss of the 1979 referendum. With a Government majority of only three, Plaid Cymru and Scottish National party MPs skilfully forced the concession of national referendums in their respective countries. While Scotland voted yes, only to be denied their own parliament by a clause that required a threshold of 40% of the electorate voting for change, Wales voted overwhelmingly against even a meagre form of self-government.

Dafydd Wigley wrote that Gwynfor wanted to accept that the Labour Government were sincere in their promise that they supported devolution, despite the proposed model being far weaker than the model recommended by the Kilbrandon Commission, as it had no legislative or taxation functions. However, Labour allowed its MPs based in Wales to campaign for a no vote. In the end, 79.74% of people voted against self-government, and there is no doubt that Gwynfor took the loss personally. He felt completely betrayed by Labour, which had allowed its MPs to work with the Tories against their own party. Soon after, the Labour Government lost a vote of no confidence and a general election was held, which the Tories, under Margaret Thatcher, won by a landslide. Gwynfor, after the morale-sapping defeat of the referendum, lost Carmarthen. He would never hold elected office again and there were genuine concerns about his health.

Gwynfor was offered a peerage, but he turned it down flatly, telling the party’s new Westminster Leader, Dafydd Wigley, that there was only one Lord and that he did not abide in a palace on the banks of the Thames. A lesser man would have been crushed mentally and physically by the twin political blows of 1979. However, Gwynfor was about to embark on arguably his most famous battle.

The new Conservative Government had pledged during the election in 1979 to create a new Welsh language television channel. Gwynfor viewed such a channel as a vital step to help secure Welsh as a living language in the modern world. In his epic autobiography, “For the Sake of Wales – The Memoirs of Gwynfor Evans”, he recounts the battle for S4C in great detail. On 12 September 1979 in Cambridge, the new Home Secretary, William Whitelaw, announced in a surprise statement that the new Government would not honour their pledge to set up a new Welsh language channel.

Gwynfor suspected that the decision of the Home Secretary was a case of the Westminster establishment taking advantage of the desperation in the national movement. The response in Wales to the decision was uproar. Getting both main Westminster parties to agree to a Welsh TV channel had been one of the great successes of the Welsh national movement in the 1970s, which was won only after heavy terms of imprisonment had been imposed on many patriots. For the language campaigners of Cymdeithas Yr aith, the TV channel was a priority if Welsh had any hope of surviving as a living language.

Gwynfor saw the decision as a direct attempt to break the spirit of the Welsh people once and for all. In his memoirs, he quotes the bard T Gwynn Jones:

“Ysbryd Gwlad! Os badog lu

Cas Iwyth fu’n ceisio’i lethu

Iddo trwy hyn ni ddaw tranc

Heb ddiwedd y bydd ieuanc.”

That roughly translates as:

“A country’s spirit! If treacherous and vicious throng ‘have tried to quench it, it will never be overcome by this, but will remain endlessly young.”

Gwynfor therefore viewed the decision as a direct challenge to the existence of the Welsh nation. Considering the crushing personal blows that he had just received, it says everything about the stature of the man that he had the clarity of thought to motivate himself once more. With patriots across the country—including some of the greats of the nation, such as Cynog Dafis, Meredyth Evans, Ned Thomas and Pennar Davies—up in arms and even taking direct action against TV transmitters, Gwynfor committed himself to one last action for his country.

Dafydd Wigley has recounted how he and Gwynfor were returning in a car from a St David’s day dinner in Llanberis in 1980 when Gwynfor said, out of the blue, that he would not be with Dafydd the following year as it was his intention to fast until death over the betrayal of the new Government. Gwynfor did not expect the Thatcher Government to back down; he expected to die. However, it was a sacrifice he was willing to make, because his primary aim was to motivate the Welsh nation to believe once again in their country and face down the challenge of the British establishment.

Gwynfor decided that he would make his statement in May and, following the advice of his son-in-law, the great language campaigner Ffred Ffransis, he decided to give the Government five months’ warning before beginning the hunger strike in his study in Talar Wen. He would begin his fast to death on 5 October 1980, but before then he embarked on a national tour. The response of the Welsh establishment was hostile to say the least, but Gwynfor galvanised the national movement.

Media coverage extended far beyond the borders of Wales; The Sunday Times even carried a sympathetic article in the language of heaven itself. TV crews from Canada and Germany turned up at Talar Wen. Articles appeared in the main newspaper of Catalonia, in Scandinavia and in The New York Times. The campaign gained momentum, leading many people to plead with Gwynfor that he could achieve far more if he called off his threat to fast. However, his mind was set; he felt that he could achieve far more for Wales by dying than by living, and that that was the appropriate action to take.

Peter Hughes Griffiths and the party’s chief executive, Dafydd Williams, helped Gwynfor to arrange 22 meetings between 6 September and the beginning of the fast. About 2,000 people turned up to the launch of the series of talks at Sophia Gardens in Cardiff, the home of Welsh cricket. The following night, Gwynfor was in Glasgow, where over a thousand people attended the meeting at the McLellan Galleries. At the same time, the great and the good of Wales, including the Archbishop of Wales, Gwilym O Williams, Sir Goronwy Daniel, Michael Foot and Cledwyn Hughes, held meetings with Government Ministers and implored them to reconsider. However, Gwynfor received feedback that the Government had no intention of making a U-turn.

The speaking tour continued and, as Gwynfor wrote in his memoirs, there were signs that Welsh nationalism was on the verge of becoming an overwhelming force. He wrote that it is a simple truism that that is the only thing that Westminster fears in Wales, and it fears it greatly. I personally live for the day when the people of Wales grasp this simple reality, as the people of Scotland have.

On Wednesday 17 September, the Government yielded and Margaret Thatcher would perform her first and possibly her only U-turn as Prime Minister. However, Gwynfor’s first reaction was disappointment, not elation. He thought that a few more weeks of campaigning would have shifted the tectonic plates in Wales for ever.

The meeting that night was scheduled for Crymych, and when Gwynfor announced his intention to withdraw his threat of going on hunger strike, the 800-strong crowd erupted in emotion. It was his greatest political victory and to make the point somebody mischievously painted on the banks of the Embankment, opposite this House, “Gwynfor 1 - Thatcher 0”. We will settle for that score tomorrow night, Mr Stringer.

A half-hour debate of this nature could never do justice to the contribution of Gwynfor Evans. If I had a full day of debate, I could talk about Gwynfor the Christian, Gwynfor the internationalist, Gwynfor the pacifist, Gwynfor and Europe, and Gwynfor the historian. He was also a prolific writer, publishing well over a million words. If the opportunity to speak about Gwynfor arises again in future, I am confident that I would comfortably beat the record four-hour speech that William Gladstone made in this House when he delivered his 1853 Budget.

Following the events of the last few weeks, I have given some thought in preparing this speech to how Gwynfor would have reacted if he was alive today. It would not be right of me to presume to know the thinking of a far superior intellect than mine, but based on his writings I think we can safely assume that he would now be advancing the need for our country to position ourselves economically within a tariff-free single market as an imperative; that politically Wales must have the freedom to choose its own future; and that when the UK ceases to exist following Scottish independence, as I foresee, that will be a material change in condition, and our nation will again need to have a debate and a vote about where our future lies.

Gwynfor’s place in history is secure. He was chosen by readers of Wales on Sunday and the weekly Welsh-language publication Y Cymro as a millennium icon, ahead of Lloyd George and Aneurin Bevan, and even ahead of Owain Glyndwr. Glyndwr was ranked the seventh most prominent global figure of the past millennia by The Sunday Times, which gives an indication of the esteem in which Gwynfor is held within Wales, and across the world.

Gwynfor Evans died at his home in Pencarreg on the morning of Thursday 21 April 2005, at the age of 92. His biographer, Rhys Evans, says:

“Gwynfor wanted to return to Garn Goch, to the soil, the land of Wales where his politics had taken root. Nevertheless, as his ashes blow in the wind, his legacy survives.”

As I said earlier, my great friend Dafydd Wigley offered incredible help in composing this speech. When I asked him to summarise Gwynfor’s political contribution to our country—and I will finish with this as I could not put it better myself—he replied:

“Gwynfor Evans was Wales’ greatest 20th century patriot. Without his dedication and unswerving determination, Wales wouldn’t today have the degree of national autonomy we enjoy and neither would the Welsh language have secured its official status. Future generations will look back to the 1966 by-election as a turning point in our history and salute the good people of Carmarthenshire for making it happen.”

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Policing and Crime Bill

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Monday 13th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I understand that the very fact of having to work to, and be answerable to, two agendas is the reason our colleagues in the Assembly, and the four police and crime commissioners in Wales, are calling for the devolution of policing.

What I am describing contrasts starkly with the situation in Wales. Power over policing is due to be devolved to English city regions: Manchester and Liverpool, for example. The present approach to devolution has been criticised in a House of Lords Constitutional Committee report, published last month, which described it as piecemeal and lacking a coherent vision. I would strongly argue that the devolution of policing to Wales would benefit the people of Wales, and that they are ill served by the antiquated England and Wales arrangement, which, inevitably, is designed with the priorities of English cities in mind.

Our demographics are different in Wales. The need to maintain effective services in rural areas with scattered populations cries out for better consideration. The impact of tourism—populations rocket at bank holidays and in summer months—stretches resources to the limit. Abersoch, in my constituency, has 1,000 year-round residents, yet North Wales police have to deal with an influx of 20,000 visitors in the summer season. I went on patrol with officers last August, and saw that drunken behaviour meant that police officers had to focus attention on that one community, travelling for hours back and forth along country roads to the nearest custody cells 30 miles away. The current arrangement of policing in England and Wales is dominated by English metropolitan concerns, and fails to provide for Wales's needs.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

My hon. Friend is making very strong points. Only recently, the UK Government introduced centralised helicopter services for the police in England and Wales. That did not affect Scotland and Northern Ireland, because their police forces were decentralised. They kept their helicopters, but we lost ours in Dyfed-Powys. Ministers should not smirk; this affects lives in my constituency. The police force in Dyfed-Powys called out the helicopter on more than 40 occasions, and it was sent out on only a handful of them.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. This is not like you, Mr Edwards. If you want to speak, you are allowed to speak, but you cannot make a speech and get carried away and start pointing at the Minister. Let us try to keep it calm. If you want to raise any points, there will certainly be time for you to do so. We will not miss you out.

Draft Wales Bill (Morning sitting)

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[Liz Saville Roberts]

It was distressing to hear about the students in Cardiff who have no one to speak for them. We recognise, however, that not all parties share this view. That is why we agreed to sign up to the Silk Commission—a cross-party Commission with nominees from each of the four parties represented here and in the Assembly, along with academic experts. It carried out extensive engagement and consultation with the public across all parts of Wales. It was a truly representative Commission.

It was deeply disappointing, therefore, to find the Secretary of State then choosing to forgo genuine consensus in favour of a process that can only be described as a means of determining the lowest common denominator. Far from being an agreement, as the Secretary of State likes to call it, “Powers for a Purpose” and the resulting draft Wales Bill that we are discussing today fall well short of the consensus that Silk worked so hard to achieve.

The heavy criticism that the draft Bill has received from all sides, including the Secretary of State’s party, is striking when contrasted with the consensus previously evident in Wales. What happened to the consensus that Wales’s natural resources should be in the hands of the people of Wales? What happened to the consensus that Wales’s Welsh language television channel should be in the hands of the people who use it? We find ourselves with a cherry-picked menu that trusts people in Wales to set their own speed limits, but considers drink-drive limits far too complicated.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on her passionate speech. Does she agree that perhaps the most revealing aspect of these proceedings is the way the new shadow Secretary of State for Wales is distancing herself from her predecessor’s position?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I cannot say because I was not here at that time, but that is what I understand.

It is interesting that the menu on offer considers water to be too valuable a resource to be left in the hands of the people of Wales, but—fair play—it gives us control over sewage.

I have many concerns regarding the current list of reserved policy fields and will return to this later in my contribution, but I will start by focusing on the foundations of the draft Bill. I should stress first that Plaid Cymru warmly welcomes the move to a reserved powers model as a matter of principle; that is, to move away from the current model whereby the devolution settlement lists areas where the Assembly can legislate, to a model in which the settlement lists areas where it cannot.

There was an unusual and welcome consensus across all six of Wales’s biggest parties on the need to move to a reserved powers model over a number of years. This consensus stems from the frequency with which Welsh legislation is challenged in the Supreme Court and the lack of clarity on where responsibility lies, especially when compared with the Scottish dispensation. Moving to a reserved powers model was also about shifting the mentality and attitudes towards devolution. It should put the onus on the UK Government to justify why something should be reserved, rather than justifying why something might be devolved—devolution based on subsidiarity rather than on retention.

However, those principles—the foundations of the argument in favour of a reserved powers model—have been lost, and the result is a Bill that is simply not fit for purpose. We have unfortunately gone from a position as recently as May last year where all four parties represented in this Chamber today, as well as UKIP and the Greens, agreed on a way forward, to a position where, I am sad to say, it appears the Secretary of State is the only person who thinks the Bill delivers a workable settlement.

Capel Celyn Reservoir (50th Anniversary)

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 14th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the 50th anniversary of Capel Celyn reservoir.

This October marks the 50th anniversary of the official opening of the reservoir that flooded Capel Celyn, a rural community in the Tryweryn valley in my constituency. The village, along with other parts of the valley, was razed and then flooded to supply Liverpool and the Wirral with water, primarily for industry.

A private Bill sponsored by Liverpool Corporation was brought before Parliament in 1956. By obtaining authority through an Act of Parliament, Liverpool City Council avoided any requirement to gain consent from the Welsh planning authorities. Despite 35 out of the 36 Welsh MPs voting against the Bill, in 1957 it was passed by Parliament.

The village of Capel Celyn was one of the few remaining Welsh-only speaking communities in existence. It had a school, a post office, a chapel, a cemetery—the usual things—along with a number of farms and homesteads. The culture and life of the people of Capel Celyn might not mean much to those who neither know nor love Wales. To members of the Liverpool Corporation, the farms that they were drowning were no more than convenient stretches of land along a remote valley floor, so the region as a whole—a convenient 800 acres—could thus be put to a more convenient and productive use. To Welsh men and women however, their very names ring like bells—Hafod Fadog, Y Garnedd Lwyd, Cae Fadog, Y Gelli, Pen y Bryn Mawr. But those bells now ring underwater and are heard by no one. It is an evocative image in Wales, which remembers the bells of Cantre’r Gwaelod, and the loss associated with inundation.

To understand the strength of feeling in Wales about the event, one must first know something, not of the agricultural potential or the landscape of the Tryweryn valley, but of the character of the community it supported and its place in Welsh life. The people of Capel Celyn were an integral part of the pattern of one of the richest folk cultures in Europe. Cynghanedd poetry was not an academic affectation, but the flower of a robust tradition with a sophisticated metrical discipline that was passed from generation to generation. It was a community with one of the oldest living languages in Europe. It is a language with an unbroken literary tradition, exceeded only by Latin and classical Greek, which was and remains under threat.

No civilised person would wish to see a community of such significance and such high artistic and intellectual attainment invaded and destroyed by an alien institution. Far greater schemes have been rejected by Government to protect wildlife or sites of antiquarian value. The Tryweryn valley was a living community of men and women, young and old, whose continued existence was of far greater moment to Wales, and indeed to Europe, than any ruins or wildfowl, important though those may be.

The value of what was at stake 50 years ago was described in a letter to the Liverpool Daily Post from Mrs Gertrude Armfield, an English woman resident in Wales:

“The way of life nurtured in these small villages which serve, with their chapel and school, as focal points for a widespread population—this way of life has a quality almost entirely lost in England and almost unique in the world.

It is one where a love of poetry and song, the spoken and written word, still exists, and where recreation has not to be sought after and paid for, but is organised locally in home, chapel and school.”

It was not a stretch of land that was flooded against the will of the people of Wales, but a community of people, a culture and a language. People saw the coffins of their parents and grandparents dug up and reburied at Llanycil and Trawsfynydd.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate and on the incredibly passionate speech she is making this afternoon. Does she agree that Tryweryn had a traumatic impact on the Welsh psyche? It is immortalised in the words of Meic Stevens, that great Welsh folk singer, when he says:

“Dwr oer sy’n cysgu yn Nhreweryn”—

it is cold water that sleeps in Tryweryn. Does that not say it all about the impact of Tryweryn on the Welsh psyche?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

It does indeed. Another poet, Twm Morys, says of people who drive past the lake, which is of course strikingly beautiful:

“Be’ weli di heblaw dwr?”

There is more to the place than just the water that we now see and appreciate. The water was for industry in Liverpool, and, indeed, excess water for the Liverpool Corporation to sell at a profit.

But why Wales? Wales is a small country, whose language and way of life was, and is, threatened with extinction—inundation. England on the other hand was a country with 10 times Wales’s area, whose language and life were in no peril. It is safe to say that the English language was then, and remains, the most politically powerful and richly resourced language in the world. There were untapped resources in Cumberland and Westmoreland, where the water of many natural lakes was not being used by any authority. Why insist on flooding a Welsh community for its water? The answer has been given quite openly by those behind the project: they came to Wales, not because water was unavailable elsewhere, but because they could get it at a lower cost. It was purely a matter of business—profits. The issue was not whether Liverpool was to get more water, but how cheaply it could get it.

Another reflection of Liverpool’s attitude towards Wales was its lack of candour. Neither the people of Capel Celyn, nor the people of Wales as a whole, were informed by the council of its intentions. They were left to infer from reports of engineers that the work afoot in the Tryweryn valley would mean something significant to their lives. Those who lived in Capel Celyn facing eviction learned of their fate for the first time from the press. Their reaction was predictable. They put their names to a statement expressing uncompromising opposition. They established a defence fund, contributed liberally to it and, in the best Welsh tradition, set up a Tryweryn defence committee, to which representatives were elected by the public bodies directly concerned, such as the county councils, national park authorities and the Dee and Clwyd river board.

One of the committee’s first actions was to ask Liverpool City Council to accept a strong and representative deputation from Wales, which would put the Welsh case. The request was refused. The town clerk stated that though the water committee would be willing to meet the deputation, the council itself dealt only with important local matters. The rebuff captured clearly the mentality of those behind the scheme—that Welsh opinion was of small importance in comparison with local Liverpool needs.

Superfast Broadband

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Jonathan Edwards

Monday 12th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I, too, thank the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman) for securing this debate. Access to high-speed internet has become something that most people who live in cities take for granted. It is so intrinsic to everyday life that it has almost become an assumed utility, but that is not the case for everyone. For those without access to it, it is a luxury enjoyed by others while they are progressively denied effective internet services and media.

The people of Wales have been promised that 96% of households will have access to superfast broadband by 2016, although the term superfast is interpreted differently by the Welsh Government and means speeds of 24 megabits a second rather than the European definition of 30 megabits a second. All but 1% of that target will be delivered through the Superfast Cymru scheme, which is jointly funded by the Welsh Government, the UK Government and the European Union. The issue of whether the target will be met by 2016 is one matter, but equally important, if not more so, is what will happen to the remaining 4%. Neither the Welsh Government nor the company contracted to deliver the programme—BT, of which we have heard a lot—is prepared to disclose which areas will fall within or outside the 96%, but clearly installing superfast broadband in a cabinet in the middle of Cardiff will reach far more people than doing so in a cabinet in rural Meirionnydd. Until we are informed otherwise, we must expect that the 4% who fall outside the Welsh Government’s targets will be in rural communities.

Access to high-speed internet, as we have heard, is crucial for the rural economy. Businesses in rural areas do not have the high-density footfall of big cities, nor can they rely on passing trade.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the compressed work and leisure time people face in the modern economy means that there is an opportunity for rural areas to offer wide leisure portfolios and pastimes, such as those that are available in the areas we represent? However, for people to set up businesses in those areas they need infrastructure, and we should be pushing ahead with getting broadband into rural areas so that we can use our natural capital as an economic advantage.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

We have heard already that tourism and agriculture, our principal rural industries, are highly dependent on effective internet services for marketing and their statutory data returns. There is a real issue with isolation and loneliness, and poor internet speed is doubly damaging in rural areas given the equally poor, if not non-existent, mobile data signal. Just 17% of Gwynedd is covered by the 3G data signal compared with a UK average of 84%, and most of that area is in the university town rather than my constituency. We have no 4G whatsoever—it is easy to remember that statistic. Our businesses are crying out for high-speed internet access and the Welsh Government are failing them. Given the importance of growing the private sector to meet the task of growing the Welsh economy, given the rural nature of the Welsh economy compared with that of the rest of the UK and given in particular the importance of high-speed internet to the rural economy, what will the UK Government do to ensure that the remaining 4% are not left without superfast broadband?

Poor broadband provision is putting rural businesses at a disadvantage and might stop businesses investing in rural Wales, as we heard previously about Somerset. That is why Plaid Cymru considers digital infrastructure equally important to the Welsh economy as transport infrastructure. If we want all corners of these islands to be prosperous and to break the long-standing dependence on the south-east of England, we must create the conditions for economic growth in all parts of the UK. For years now, Plaid Cymru MPs have been campaigning for a rebalancing of power and wealth across the UK and although that has been traditionally associated with transport infrastructure investment and empowering national Governments with fiscal responsibility, it also means investment in digital infrastructure. For example, a Plaid Cymru Welsh Government in 2016 would deliver full superfast broadband at the EU definition of 30 megabits a second to 100% of Wales. If we are serious about growing the economy throughout the UK, we must do that.