Welsh Affairs

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Thursday 29th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

Gower College Swansea—the hon. Lady has made her point with her usual force and eloquence.

I think as well of the meeting we had with apprentices at the magnificent Airbus factory in Broughton. The Airbus apprenticeship scheme must be the most impressive, and probably the most competitively applied for apprenticeship, anywhere in the country. What we saw there was really impressive.

I also think about the meeting we had a few weeks ago at His Majesty’s Prison Cardiff, where we spent the morning, which finished up with a sit down session with a group of prisoners who opened up to us in the most remarkable way. They talked about their upbringing, struggles with relationships and addictions, past failures and mistakes, and their hopes for the future. What really struck a chord with me was how they talked about feeling respected by the staff at the prison and feeling that they could give respect back. There was hardly a dry eye in the room at the end of that session, which was probably the most powerful and moving thing I have done as a Member of Parliament in the past 18 years.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

The right hon. Member is giving a really interesting introduction. I am glad that he mentioned the work done by prison staff, because their work is so critical. He must agree that we have an anomaly in the justice system in Wales whereby so many of the critical support services for prisoners coming out of prison are run by the Welsh Government. That situation is not reflected anywhere else in the England and Wales legal system, and, sooner or later, that must come to a close, because it is insufficient.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Before Mr Crabb comes back in with a response, I will let people know that there will be an unofficial five-minute limit. I also very much take on board what Mr Crabb had to say about ensuring a decent amount of time to discuss Welsh affairs in future.

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[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

It is an honour to be here again on St David’s Day, Dydd gŵyl Dewi, to discuss our separate set of circumstances, issues and problems, and to celebrate what makes Wales unique, even if we each have only five minutes to do so today. Calls for a longer period of time in future would be very welcome.

This debate is particularly important this week because we are standing on the threshold of the spring Budget and we all have a duty to recognise how what we do here reverberates directly and indirectly in Wales. As each of us is a representative of the fairest constituency of Wales, we have a duty to aspire to and to seek to bring about fairness and ambition for our country. That bring us to the question of what is in the gift of the UK Government specifically to do to make a real difference.

What Governments can do is invest in what will make a material difference, and of course I would propose that investing in fair consequentials for the funding allocated for HS2 would indeed make a material difference. Not only are we owed about £3.9 billion from that fiasco, but the Prime Minister, in his autumn conference speech last year, promised us the electrification of the north Wales main line route for £1 billion. He did so despite that figure being based on a 2015 case and the Welsh Government saying that no development work has been done on the project in the intervening nine years, and so I imagine that prices have changed. This was like the previous promises that were made of an electrified south Wales main line—things have also gone quiet on that front, with Transport Ministers reluctant to give a timeline. Of course we will have heard, because we are in the run-up to an election, of plans to spend HS2 money in the midlands and the north of England being detailed.

A second thing that would make a real material difference to Wales would be to devolve the Crown Estate, whose asset value in Wales was £853 million, with its marine portfolio amounting to £603 million, two years ago. In 2020-21, the estate made £8.7 million, with £8.6 million from the marine portfolio. That goes directly to Treasury coffers, and 25% goes to the monarch via the sovereign grant. Imagine what we could achieve in Wales with that money.

Devolving the Crown Estate would also give us rights to offshore leasing. It would allow us to have our own green industrial strategy and save bill payers over £300 million each year through offshore wind, all while generating public funds for the Welsh Government to help better people’s lives. We need only look at what is evolving in Scotland, where the Crown Estate is devolved, to see what is possible. Twenty projects approved through offshore leasing are projected to raise £28.8 billion of investment, and £700 million would be passed to the Scottish Government for public spending.

So many of the problems that we experience could be solved by fair funding. That requires reviewing and replacing the outdated Barnett formula with a system that delivers equitable funding for all parts of Wales. There are several reasons why the formula must be replaced. First, it does not address our needs; it has not for decades. Wales’s funding floor is not based on Wales’s current assessed need, but on estimates made by the Holtham commission in 2010, which drew on—wait for it—2001 census data. Secondly, the formula is not clear or transparent. When funding is announced in England, it may take weeks or months to find out if Wales will receive Barnett consequential funding, and if so, how much.

Thirdly, we all know the formula is open to political manipulation, with Wales being robbed of at least £3.9 billion through HS2 funding. Northern Ireland recently received a funding package of £3.3 billion from the UK Government to address its funding problems. If Wales were to receive an equivalent per capita funding package, it would get £5.4 billion. Looking ahead to the spring Budget, I hope that the Government will show, somehow or other, that they intend to tackle the deep structural problems that Wales faces, but I will not hold my breath.

For 14 years, Wales has had a UK Government who ignore and belittle our needs, wants and values, and use devolution—our democracy and our Senedd—as a political punchbag. That is bad for our democracy in the UK and in Wales, and we need to find a better way to deal with the UK as it stands.

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[Richard Thomson]

I absolutely agree with that point. The principle of consent is enshrined in the Good Friday agreement for Northern Ireland and implicit in that is that it is a decision for the people. I would argue that that is the position Scotland ought to be in—it is a position for the people—and of course it is for the people of Wales to decide how to form a Government best suited to their needs and to then bring whatever pressure they can through the ballot box to bring that about.

Two other recommendations came out of the commission that struck me: the need to secure a duty of co-operation and parity of esteem between the Governments of the UK; and that the Sewel convention ought to be strengthened. That is something on which a Labour Government in Cardiff and an SNP-led Government in Edinburgh could probably find a lot of agreement. My party is often happier to find ourselves in agreement with the Labour party than the Labour party is to find itself in agreement with the Scottish National party, but there are examples that creep up where the Scottish Labour party appears to be at variance with its colleagues in Wales and I would like to use my remaining time to highlight one example.

When the UK Government find their record under attack, they point the finger, not always fairly I would say, at the record of the Labour Government in Wales, and in turn that Labour Government in Cardiff point a finger back about the funding settlement that is in place and it being imposed by the UK Government. Yet when Labour in Scotland tries to criticise the Scottish Government, it seems completely oblivious, in a way its Welsh counterparts are not, to the funding strictures also in place in Scotland. I do not know whether Welsh Labour ever speaks to Scottish Labour, but if they have not swiped right on each other yet, I would be more than happy to effect the introductions—I would be very happy to set up a blind date if that would be helpful.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will join me in wondering about the fact that nobody would come forward to recommend the status quo and the commission did not do so, because there are evidently no advantages to the status quo in the present devolution settlement.

[Richard Thomson]

Time is short and the right hon. Lady makes her point very deftly as always, but I want to come back to the point from the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire about the proposed expansion of the Senedd and the electoral system. I have to say that having multi-Member constituencies is not a new thing. They exist in Northern Ireland and also in Scotland for the regional lists, and they exist in local government here, and yes, of course, elected representatives treat people without fear and without favour, and without regard to who anyone voted for or even if they voted at all. [Interruption.] Yes, really, and certainly that is how any elected representative worth their salt will go about things. Conservatives, at least as I always understood it, used to be in favour of consumer choice and this means voters have an element of consumer choice in terms of who they wish to take their concerns to, or indeed if they wish to engage the services of more than one Member. There are examples which I would be more than happy to discuss with the right hon. Gentleman later, because it really is not the end of the world, as he is portraying it to be.

[Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) (Lab)]

It is good to see you in the Chair again for this annual debate, Mr Deputy Speaker. I also thank the Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) for securing the debate, and I gently echo his sentiments about the time we have for this debate today. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting it and all colleagues present for their contributions to what is always a wide-ranging debate on Welsh affairs.

I will mention just a few contributions. My hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) talked about rugby and cockles. My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) gave a great speech about rail infrastructure, renewable energy, offshore wind delays and steel. My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) is formidable, and she spoke about her “Everyone Deserves” campaign. If she asks you to help, you dare not say no, Mr Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Beth Winter) talked about our proud industrial past. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Ruth Jones) talked about music and culture in her constituency, and I am very much looking forward to visiting the Corn Exchange this weekend. My hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Gerald Jones) talked about two very important issues: post office closures, which I entirely recognise from the experience of my constituents in Cardiff Central, and the Government’s poor roll-out of pension credit.

St David’s Day is a time to celebrate Welsh heritage and national identity, and the Labour party is fiercely proud of our Welsh heritage. Ever since devolution, delivered by a Labour Government, Labour-led Welsh Governments have delivered positive change for the people of Wales: free prescriptions, free school lunches for all primary schoolchildren, the highest number of nurses and consultants in the Welsh NHS for a decade, the protection of the NHS bursary, unlike in England, and a ban on fracking, unlike in England, and those are just a few. Labour is the party of devolution. We are committed to reinforcing the status of the Senedd.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Will the shadow Minister give way?

[Jo Stevens]

The right hon. Lady has made several contributions, so I will carry on, if she does not mind. We are committed to reinforcing the status of the Senedd, strengthening intergovernmental working and pushing power out of Westminster and into the hands of our communities.

Wales is brimming with potential. Yesterday, pupils from my constituency from St Philip Evans Catholic Primary School in Llanedeyrn came to Parliament, and I met them and their teachers at the end of their day here. They were fascinated by what they had seen and they gave me quite an enthusiastic grilling, with excellent questions, but they, like all children from across Wales, including those who visit Parliament’s wonderful education centre—I thank all the staff there for the tremendous job that they do—are our future. We all have a responsibility to make sure that they have a good future, full of the opportunities that they deserve.

I am ambitious for a future fuelled by the talent and innovation I have seen up and down Wales. I am proud of our roots in industry. Industry has been our history, and it can be our future, too, but the chaos and failure of the Government risk squandering that future. My hon. Friends have rightly mentioned steel several times today. Steelmaking is the lifeblood of communities across Wales, the backbone of our local economies and the foundation of our manufacturing capability, and that is why the deep cuts to jobs mooted at Port Talbot are a kick in the teeth.

Instead of having a proper industrial strategy like Labour, Conservative Ministers have compounded the risk to likelihoods, forking out £500 million in taxpayers’ money to see up to 3,000 people made redundant and forfeiting our ability to make virgin steel. The Secretary of State for Business and Trade—not known for diplomacy, I might add—said that Wales should consider it a win, and the Welsh Secretary said that it is mission accomplished on saving Welsh steelmaking. I am afraid that that attitude shows casual indifference to the thousands of people across Wales who have so much at stake here, and it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of our Welsh economy and a total disregard for the need to preserve the UK sovereign steelmaking capability.

However Conservative Ministers try to spin it, the loss of sovereign steelmaking is a fundamental threat to our UK economy and security—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Workington (Mark Jenkinson) can chunter as much as he wants. However Tory Ministers try to spin it, that is the truth.

The floating offshore wind in the Celtic sea that we have heard about this afternoon and the new nuclear power plant at Wylfa that the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie) has been begging for year after year, and which Labour Members want to see, will need significant quantities of steel. Where is it going to come from? In an increasingly uncertain world, the Government are surrendering our sovereign capability to build the Royal Navy ships we need to keep our shores safe and our shipbuilding industry strong.

The Secretary of State has said on numerous occasions that no one will be left behind. He talks about his role as chair of the transition board—a monument to his party’s failure to secure the future of sovereign steelmaking in Wales. I want to put a marker down here and now. If these job losses go ahead, I will be holding him to account every single step of the way.

I have seen this happen before. I grew up just take a few miles from Shotton steelworks, which in 1980, under a Tory Government, became scarred by its closure. The resulting loss of 6,500 jobs remains the biggest industrial redundancy on a single day in western Europe. It totally decimated the area. Nearly everyone at my school had family who worked in the steelworks or in the supply chain. The impact of those mass redundancies in our area was felt for years: all those skills and the potential of my generation wasted—the rug pulled from under our feet. I am deeply concerned that we will see that again, but this time in Port Talbot and right across our steel communities.

It is not just steel. On nuclear at Wylfa and on Newport Wafer Fab—the jewel in the crown of our high-tech south Wales cluster—the Government drag their feet while workers and their families nervously wait, jobs and investment go and opportunity withers.

Labour has a different view of how things could be, and we have set out our plan. A UK Labour Government will invest £2.5 billion in the UK steel industry by the end of their first term—that is on top of the Government’s earmarked £500 million. We will increase domestic demand for steel by more than doubling onshore wind capacity, tripling solar power and quadrupling offshore wind. We will get Britain building again.

A general election is coming. It is an opportunity for voters to make their voices heard. My pitch to them after 14 years of Conservative Government is this: if people feel it is no longer true that when they work hard they get on, if people are bored and frustrated with watching a chaotic, failed Government more focused on holding their party together than on governing, and if people feel like it is time for a change, they should look to Labour. We can build the economy of the future, create good-quality jobs, drive down energy bills and provide energy security, and we in Wales will play a critical role in powering the whole UK through a decade of national renewal, rekindling Wales’s proud industrial roots with the industries of the future.