Finance Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Monday 2nd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Ian Lavery]

Is it not a fact that 4.4 million pensioners will lose roughly £83 a year from next year, and that people who turn 65 next year could lose up to £322 a year? That implies that it is disingenuous to suggest that people are not losing out—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. “Disingenuous” is not a word that we should use. I know that it is meant to be an appropriate term, but it is not the sort of parliamentary language that we accept. I am sure that we will not be using it again.

[Barry Gardiner]

I apologise to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and to the hon. Member for Dover, if that is unparliamentary language.

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[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. In fairness, Mr Gardiner, you said that you did not think that the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke)was disingenuous. We were all right up to that point.

[Barry Gardiner]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I absolutely recognise the figures that my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) laid before the House, and of course I think that they are accurate. He is right to say that we are talking about a cut—a cut in what people were, with legitimacy, expecting. That is the point. It was legitimate for somebody coming up to pensionable age to expect that their retirement could be based on the figures that they were using. They had a promise from the Prime Minister that that would be the case. That promise was not honoured, and they have experienced real hardship as a result.

I want to focus on one other aspect of the debate: people’s behaviour at different rates of taxation. Let me be clear that I do not, in principle, want a 50p rate of tax to continue in place in perpetuity. Indeed, the Labour party does not want that, as was made very clear when my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), as Chancellor, introduced the tax before the 2010 election. He made it quite clear that we felt it was necessary in the short term, but would ultimately wish to get rid of it. There is no desire on the Labour Benches to see a 50p tax rate imposed for ever more.

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[Barry Gardiner]

The hon. Gentleman talks about the way in which wages have broadly stagnated. We are now seeing wages going down and jobs being lost, and we are back in recession. He should look at the promises of his Government in that first Budget. The promises, commitments and assertions were that the measures in it would pull us out of the problems that we were in and get the economy back on track. They would deliver growth and prosperity, but they have not. He will remember, because he is an honest fellow, to use his word, that at the time, on the Opposition Benches, people were saying, “No, this will lead to a double-dip recession.” All those on the Government Benches told us in unison that we were wrong and that the Budget would pull us through the problems.

The electorate look at that, see the analysis, see what steps were taken and ask, “Who was right?” They know, because we are back in double-dip recession, that the Government got it wrong. We are at a point where there is £150 billion extra borrowing, the largest single increase year on year in the UK’s history.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I know the hon. Gentleman is painting the big picture, but we need to come back to the relevance of income tax. We have discussed personal allowances. I know he will come back to the point.

[Barry Gardiner]

I accept your ruling, of course, Mr Deputy Speaker, and you are right. We have strayed wide of the initial focus of the amendment. It was not my intention. All I can say in mitigation is that I was led down the path by the interventions that I took.

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[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We do not need to worry about Take That and radios for today. I think that the circus has carried on long enough.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am most grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker.

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[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

It has to be said that I am not the world’s greatest expert on pop stars and footballers, but none the less I think they bring a richness to our national life that enlivens many people in my constituency, and even in Scotland. They want to watch the highest quality football being played.

This is relevant, Mr Deputy Speaker, in case you think I am going off on a tangent. I have thought that it would be a good idea to remove the limit on overseas players in cricket, because that limit has been removed in association football and it has led to our having in this country the highest quality league football, and in English cricket—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We are drifting away from the topic under discussion—and as somebody who follows cricket and feels that it is to the benefit of the England team that there are not too many overseas players in the county game, I do not want to go any further into this debate.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, but the reduction of tax is what encourages them to be here and why they do not decide to work in other countries instead.

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[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I give way to my hon. Friend.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. It is worth answering that one first.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I am getting so many interventions, and I am always happy to take them all; allcomers are welcome. I do not think that there is this anger; I think that people are very supportive of high earners who earn their money.

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[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We are in danger of moving off the topic. We are discussing personal allowances and we need to get back to them. We have had a good lesson in the Jurassic history from those on both sides of the Chamber.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. One always feels ashamed not to answer a question directly, so I apologise to the hon. Lady for the fact that I shall have to give a later answer on that knotty point of value added tax.

I will stick with the Laffer curve and its history of increased revenue. We heard from the Opposition that when rates went down, the economy boomed and so, therefore, did the revenues raised. There are two answers to that. One reason that the economy boomed was that there was lower tax, so people had more of their own money in their pockets to spend on goods and services, leading to overall economic growth. Secondly, the amount paid by top taxpayers grew much faster than the rate of the economy overall. We are now in a situation where 27% of income tax is now paid by the top 1% of income tax payers—

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I will have to bring the Back-Bench speeches to an end at 19 minutes past, so there are three minutes left.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I strongly support the brilliant speeches of my hon. Friends the Members for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) and for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman). There are clearly qualms on the Conservative Benches about this disastrous policy.

I had the privilege of being at the TUC general council 37 years ago as a staff member when the original policy was approved by the TUC general council. At that time, we had the social contract between the TUC and the Labour Government, which I think was a brilliant success. Harry Urwin, the deputy general secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union, argued the case against some trade unionists who were concerned about a tax allowance, which would tend to go to male workers, being given through a universal benefit largely to women for their children. It was a massively progressive policy and was the right thing to do. It was in line with the principles of universality established by Beveridge and many brilliant social scientists and theorists later on, such as Richard Titmuss. It was of enormous benefit to families and children.

The hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries), my nextdoor neighbour, talked about punishing children for the sins of their parents. If their parents, by accident or design, have large families, it is not the fault of the children. The money goes to the children, not to the parents. To punish the children for what their parents have done, by accident or design, is completely wrong.

The principle of universality is rightly carried through in the basic state pension, the winter fuel allowance and a number of other things. If we want to redistribute income, we do it through the taxation system, not with means-tested benefits. We talk about trying to get people back into work. If they receive means-tested benefits, they lose them when they get back into work. Sometimes it is cheaper to stay at home and claim benefits than to go to work. Universal benefits do not have that problem, because everything else comes as extra.

My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun is right, our amendments are right and I hope that the House will carry them.