Finance Bill

Kelvin Hopkins Excerpts

Monday 2nd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

This argument is not a moral one. We are not the House of Bishops. I am all in favour of the Lords Spiritual having a view on this, but I am not one of them. I did not go into the Church; I went into politics. Politics is about raising the revenue that is needed for the country to carry out its business, and it is not an issue of morality in terms of how we phrase the laws. That those laws are then obeyed is a matter of morality. I can probably quote paragraphs of the Catholic catechism on this, but you are looking fretful at that thought, Mr Deputy Speaker, so I shall move back to the golden age of the noble Baroness Thatcher, Lady of the Garter, Order of Merit.

In 1979, the top tax rate was 98%—83p in the pound on income tax and a 15p surcharge. [Interruption.] I hear Labour Members saying that that was excellent and a jolly good thing. It is rather splendid to know that I am not the only one with dinosaur-style views in this House; there are even greater dinosaurs on the Labour Benches. When those tax rates were reduced they came down first to 60% and then to 40%, to fury from hon. Members. I believe that the House was suspended when the noble Lord Lawson introduced the rate of 40p in the pound; I think the Scottish nationalists got up in a passion of anger, wishing for higher taxation to spread across the realm of the United Kingdom. What did that reduction do? It raised more money for Her Majesty’s Government, which meant that the Government could spend money on their priorities and pay down their debt. We had a golden economic scenario when the noble Lord Lawson was at the helm, because we believed in low tax rates and had the courage of our convictions.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

I remember the noble Lord Lawson’s time as Chancellor and the real reason we boomed in that time was that he depreciated our currency by 35%.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Without going anything other than briefly through a history of sterling in the 1980s, I seem to remember that it bottomed in 1985 at $1.10 and then started rising again. So, that was not the case throughout the noble Lord’s period in office.

I shall come back to the subject of the Laffer curve, but I must first take an intervention from the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones).

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[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. One always feels ashamed not to answer a question directly, so I apologise to the hon. Lady for the fact that I shall have to give a later answer on that knotty point of value added tax.

I will stick with the Laffer curve and its history of increased revenue. We heard from the Opposition that when rates went down, the economy boomed and so, therefore, did the revenues raised. There are two answers to that. One reason that the economy boomed was that there was lower tax, so people had more of their own money in their pockets to spend on goods and services, leading to overall economic growth. Secondly, the amount paid by top taxpayers grew much faster than the rate of the economy overall. We are now in a situation where 27% of income tax is now paid by the top 1% of income tax payers—

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Not enough.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

In 1979, when the hon. Gentleman had a real socialist Government, that figure was about 8%. One can see that massive expansion in the burden of tax falling on the richest in society—the ones who can bear that burden—comes when the rate is lower. That is an excellent part of this Budget; perhaps the best part.

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[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Mr Deputy Speaker, you will rule me out of order if I argue that raising the minimum wage would be extremely unwise, so I would not dare to say it. However, on the point of benefits for the worst off, I am all in favour of those. It is a thoroughly good thing to help people who are just in the earning bracket, but not to give benefits to people earning £70,000 a year, paid for out of their extraordinarily high taxes.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Surely the biggest disincentive to less well-off people earning or trying to get work—many are trying to get work that is not available because there is mass unemployment—is the fact that all the benefits are means-tested. If we reduced the level of means-testing and had many more universal benefits paid for out of a much more progressive form of taxation, we would avoid that problem.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

There are enormously exciting benefit changes coming through and I look forward to speaking on those with enthusiasm, because I think they will make a substantial change to the welfare of the people of this country. But that is for another day. We must make sure that the tax system encourages work, gets people off benefits and helps them to be prosperous. Universal benefits have the grave disadvantage of wasting money on people who do not need it.

In the limited time that remains to me, I wish to deal with the issue that has caused most controversy: the freezing of the age-related allowance. This was a bold decision for the Government to take, but undoubtedly the right one. The ordinary threshold has been so raised that the age-related allowance, which used to be almost double the ordinary allowance, is now only marginally higher. The change is being made in the most sensible and calm way, by freezing the allowance so that nobody loses in cash terms. There will not be a cash loss to any existing pensioner. Over time the basic threshold will be raised so that everybody is better off.

It is a policy that has of course been momentarily unpopular. It has received a little publicity that is adverse, but as somebody once said, to govern is to choose. Government are at their best when they make tough choices and stick to them. We know that the economic situation of this country is deeply unsatisfactory. We know that we have a deficit that is out of control and a level of debt unseen out of wartime. In getting it right, the Government cannot throw money about like confetti. They must take the tough and bold decisions and yes, there may be consequences in the newspapers, but—

[Kelvin Hopkins]

The hon. Gentleman talks about the deficit. Things are getting worse, rather than better, because of the squeeze on the economy. If we made serious efforts to reduce the tax gap, which is estimated at £120 billion a year, we could solve that problem overnight. It is just a question of changing the law to make sure that people pay the taxes that they should pay.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

We have already discussed this. By and large people pay the taxes that they are supposed to pay, as Parliament has laid down. If they evade tax, the full force and might of the law can and should come down upon them.

I conclude on the crucial point of defending the Government on a decision that, though it has not been immediately well received, will be welcomed by the electorate, because the electorate admire Governments who govern effectively through the tough times. They do not admire Governments who are loose and lazy with their money. They admire ones who are willing to take the tough decisions. We should oppose all the amendments in the group and stick with the Budget as it was—a very fine and good Budget, in which the right decisions were made.

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[Mr Gauke]

HMRC’s analysis, which is a good piece of work, showed through two different mechanisms that the reality was that the amount being raised was somewhat less than had been predicted. The fact is that the behavioural response was much greater.

Let me say a word or two about that. To start with, HMRC estimates that as much as £18 billion worth of forestalling took place in 2009-10, of which about two thirds, up to £11.3 billion, has been estimated to unwind in 2010-11, but this forestalling was not factored into the original revenue calculations. Furthermore, HMRC estimates that between one third and one half of the behavioural effect comes from genuine reductions in income. We have heard this evening that this is all about tax avoidance, that tax avoidance increases when we increase the rate and that we can be sure we will get the benefit of it as we unwind, but the reality is that between one third and one half of this was simply the result of less economic activity, because people reduced their hours and participation in the UK labour market and moved elsewhere.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

The Minister has said it: the amount raised from the increase in tax declined because the economy went into relative decline as a result of the Government’s policies. The fact is, however, that all this is about the feebleness of our tax-collecting system—the laws governing it and HMRC, which has been shown to be soft on big companies, in particular, and soft on the rich when it comes to tax collection. Light-touch regulation: that is the poison.

[Mr Gauke]

I strongly disagree, but before I turn to tax avoidance let us remember that between one third and one half of the reduction is because of less participation in the labour market. It is not because of the decline in the economy; we are talking about people moving elsewhere, people retiring earlier and people working fewer hours because it is not worth their while, in their opinion, to work as hard as they would otherwise do. Let us not forget that when someone moves from this country to Switzerland, we miss not just the difference between 45p and 50p, but everything, the whole 50p, and not just that bit above £150,000, but the first £150,000. That is the consequence of a tax rate that drives people out of the country and does not attract them here.

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[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I will have to bring the Back-Bench speeches to an end at 19 minutes past, so there are three minutes left.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I strongly support the brilliant speeches of my hon. Friends the Members for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) and for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman). There are clearly qualms on the Conservative Benches about this disastrous policy.

I had the privilege of being at the TUC general council 37 years ago as a staff member when the original policy was approved by the TUC general council. At that time, we had the social contract between the TUC and the Labour Government, which I think was a brilliant success. Harry Urwin, the deputy general secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union, argued the case against some trade unionists who were concerned about a tax allowance, which would tend to go to male workers, being given through a universal benefit largely to women for their children. It was a massively progressive policy and was the right thing to do. It was in line with the principles of universality established by Beveridge and many brilliant social scientists and theorists later on, such as Richard Titmuss. It was of enormous benefit to families and children.

The hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries), my nextdoor neighbour, talked about punishing children for the sins of their parents. If their parents, by accident or design, have large families, it is not the fault of the children. The money goes to the children, not to the parents. To punish the children for what their parents have done, by accident or design, is completely wrong.

The principle of universality is rightly carried through in the basic state pension, the winter fuel allowance and a number of other things. If we want to redistribute income, we do it through the taxation system, not with means-tested benefits. We talk about trying to get people back into work. If they receive means-tested benefits, they lose them when they get back into work. Sometimes it is cheaper to stay at home and claim benefits than to go to work. Universal benefits do not have that problem, because everything else comes as extra.

My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun is right, our amendments are right and I hope that the House will carry them.