Reducing Baby Loss

Debate between Lilian Greenwood and Justin Madders

Tuesday 20th July 2021 Westminster Hall

[Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Gray. I thank the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Cherilyn Mackrory) for securing today’s debate and the compelling way she spoke both today and in the debate last November. I was not present for that debate, but I read it over the weekend. I never thought that reading Hansard would bring a tear to my eye, but the way that she and many other Members spoke in that debate was incredibly moving and powerful. Today, she said some very important things that we all need to reflect on. She talked about the staff who cared for her during her difficult times, and she used the words “kindness, compassion and professionalism”, which are absolutely the qualities that we need in our NHS workforce in this particularly sensitive area. We should all put on record our thanks to those who do incredible work in incredibly difficult circumstances.

The hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth also mentioned the Select Committee report and noted that progress had been good, but it was from a low base. As a number of Members said, variation still exists across the country. The hon. Member talked about her six priorities. A number of Members talked about some of them, but she set out clearly where we need to do more about staffing the shortfalls. She made an important point about providing not just training, but the back-filling of positions while staff go on training. She also made an important point about parents’ involvement and engagement with such issues, because those who have been through awful experiences have the best input to give us on how to make it a little easier for those who have to face it in the future.

Clinician confidence to report issues was another important point that several Members raised. It is important that clinicians feel able to raise concerns and that they are acted on, which does not always happen. Like most Members, the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth mentioned continuity of care and the importance of more research. One of the things that parents want to know is why this happened to them.

[Lilian Greenwood]

Each year, 1,200 babies are stillborn, and a third of those die after a full-term pregnancy. We know how important coroners’ inquiries can be in getting to the truth and preventing future deaths, but they are currently unable to investigate stillbirths. Does my hon. Friend think it would be helpful if the Government now responded to the 2019 consultation on extending coronial powers to cover stillbirths, so that some of that important investigative work can contribute to attempts to reduce the number of stillbirths in this country?

[Justin Madders]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Her speech gave a very clear example of how that can be of benefit not just to the parents, but to the wider system. Parents will always want to know why this has happened to them. It will not always be possible to give an answer, but if we can do more to look at that, it would be of great benefit.

My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake) spoke in November’s debate as well as today, and her contribution was incredibly moving. She raised the issue of research and the need for more funding to be brought into this area. Like many Members, she talked about the huge inequalities in perinatal outcomes. She also raised an important point about data collection, which will of course inform policy moving forward. It is not just about collecting data, but about collecting it in a timely manner and accurately.

The hon. Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson) mentioned the experience of his constituents Claudia and Andy, and he made a very important point about statutory bereavement leave, which we ought to look at again.

The comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) about her own trust, the death of baby Winter, and her constituents Jack and Sarah, who had a similar loss with Harriet in 2016, were telling. That really was a case of many of the issues being repeated, and it sounds to me as if the trust has not done enough to learn the lessons. My hon. Friend also made a vital point about parental involvement in the review process. It seems to me that 2016 is an arbitrary date, and I encourage the Minister to engage in a dialogue with parents to make sure that the scope of the review is as wide as it can be.

My hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson) made an excellent speech, highlighting just how far we still have to go with obstetrics and how inequalities in outcomes still exist. She made the important point that these issues need to be addressed in conjunction with those who have experienced a loss. Parental involvement is a theme that has come through several times today. She also made a very important point about the culture, which is not always the best for raising concerns and learning from past experiences.

My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne) also mentioned continuity of care and the workforce challenge, something that most Members raised. He said that postcode, ethnicity and income should not be telling factors in outcomes. He also told a very moving story about one of his constituents, who suffered their own loss. Unfortunately, it seems that the failings that were identified there will resonate with many trusts.

My hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Sarah Owen) spoke incredibly movingly today, as she did in the previous debate. She brought home how difficult it is for those who have successful subsequent pregnancies still to have to deal with previous losses, which are still on their minds, as one would expect. Again, continuity of carers and workforce issues were raised. She made a very important point about vaccines and the admissions that we have seen in recent weeks of pregnant women with covid. A very important point was put to the Minister about the priorities for booster jabs, which I hope she will address. The point my hon. Friend made most powerfully was about the three miscarriage rule, and the way she spoke brought home how cruel it is. It really does need revisiting.

Finally, the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) gave a very heartfelt speech. Again, he raised a number of issues about staffing.

I am nearly out of time, so I will make just a couple of points. A number of Members touched on issues that have arisen during the pandemic. We know that there has been reduced access to face-to-face appointments. Partners have sometimes been excluded, leaving women to receive this terrible news on their own. That has obviously been deeply isolating for mothers, but also for fathers. Virtual appointments just do not allow for the compassion and assurance that is really needed in those difficult moments. Of course, even if the woman has had her partner with her, the wider family has not always been able to comfort them during those difficult times.

We know that, for those who have had a loss, time is of the essence. There is a direct correlation between when someone receives mental health support and how long it is needed. A survey by Sands found that nearly two thirds of bereaved parents who felt they needed psychological support were unable to access it on the NHS. We really need to do much better on that.

Finally, I want to take a few moments to recognise the fantastic work that the more than 60 charities that collaborate together in this area do and the way they support anyone who has been affected by pregnancy loss or the death of a baby. They work very constructively with health professionals to improve services and reduce deaths. I also pay tribute to Donna Ockenden and her team for the work they are undertaking. There is no doubt that the more work they do, the more it becomes apparent that there is an awful lot more to do.

It is now approaching five years since we had the first of what has become an annual debate on baby loss in the House. Those debates have seen the House at its best. Members recall their own experiences, and no one should underestimate how difficult that must be. That plays a vital role in helping to inform policy, but it also says to those who may be going through these awful experiences that they are not alone.

Local Roads: Funding and Maintenance

Debate between Lilian Greenwood and Justin Madders

Thursday 4th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Lilian Greenwood]

I thank my hon. Friend and I commend him, as a former shadow Roads Minister, for his interest and knowledge in this area. We heard from industry about a lack of data on the quality of roads, and one of our recommendations is that the Government improve those data. There is a bit of a mixed picture. There has been a slight improvement on some A-roads that are managed by local authorities, but as my hon. Friend recognises, for many unclassified roads, the picture has got worse. Funding is key, but as I said, it is not just about the quantity of funding; it is the way it is delivered. We call on the Government to consult with local authorities in deciding future arrangements.

[Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

I, too, congratulate the Committee Chair on an excellent report. A week last Saturday, I attended a memorial service at Neston High School to mark 25 years since the death of Andrew Fielding who died on the A540 near the school. Ever since then his mother, Pauline Fielding, has campaigned for road safety improvements on that stretch of road, and although it is recognised that the road needs such improvements, we always seem to struggle with funding. If we could get that road, which is a major artery for the area, to be part of the strategic road network, that would open up lots more opportunities for funding. Will the review recommended by the Committee include consideration of whether certain roads should be part of the strategic road network?

[Lilian Greenwood]

The condition of our roads is an important part of road safety, and vulnerable pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists are put at risk when roads are not properly maintained. Our report focused on the local road network rather than the strategic road network, which is managed by Highways England. I cannot comment on whether the road mentioned by my hon. Friend is rightly allocated, but a large amount of funding has been put into the strategic road network, and we must place the same focus on our local road network, which is, as the Minister said, part of our national infrastructure and hugely important. Our local road network is a national asset, and we must take care of it.

Agenda for Change: NHS Pay Restraint

Debate between Lilian Greenwood and Justin Madders

Monday 30th January 2017 Westminster Hall

[Justin Madders]

I agree entirely. We all know—it is well documented—the financial pressures that the health service is under. It defies belief or explanation that those in senior positions can still fly in the face of that. I can only sympathise profusely with how nurses must feel when they see those headlines.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

Important as nurses are as the backbone of our health service, many other NHS staff are affected by the Agenda for Change pay freeze. Does my hon. Friend share my particular concern for the many staff who work in support services? Given the financial pressure that trusts are under, they have been forced to privatise parts of the service, and support services staff have moved off Agenda for Change terms and conditions altogether, which is what has happened at my local trust. The private sector tries to recruit new members of staff for less than Agenda for Change, because it is implementing the funding cuts that it faces.

[Justin Madders]

My hon. Friend has encapsulated the challenge we always face when a service is privatised. Most often the only way in which the savings promised by the private company can be delivered is by changes to staff terms and conditions. I also agree that the pay freeze affects not only nurses, but the whole of the Agenda for Change workforce. Today we are focusing in particular on some of the effects on nurses, because there are clear reasons why that position is unsustainable.

To return to some of the contributions we have heard today, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh described clearly the impact on a ward of having agency staff, and how that creates uncertainty and is not the most efficient way of working. There is also the manifest unfairness of having someone on the same ward, who is only there for that particular shift, earning significantly more than permanent members of staff. How demoralising must that be for those involved? He was right to say in conclusion that we cannot afford to lose the good will of the nursing profession further.

In common with many hon. Members who have spoken today, I pay tribute to everyone who works in the NHS and the health and social care sector, not only to doctors and nurses, but to other allied health professionals such as porters, healthcare assistants, cleaners, receptionists, care workers, paramedics and countless others. It is important to remember that behind every story about the crisis that our NHS has faced this winter are patients waiting too long for treatment, and hard-working public servants doing everything that they can to prevent a very difficult situation from getting worse.

The NHS is the biggest employer in the country—and one of the biggest in the world—and it depends on the tireless efforts of its staff to keep going and meet the challenges of rising demand and insufficient funding. Let us be clear: we cannot indefinitely keep asking them to do more for less. I would argue, as other hon. Members have, that only the good will of NHS workers has stopped the current crisis from turning into a catastrophe. I recently heard the staff who work in our NHS described as “shock absorbers”. That seemed to be a pretty good description of how they are taking and absorbing the relentless pressure and stress of being on the frontline of an underfunded health service. They can take that for only so long before something snaps, which is why it is so important that we fully explore these issues today.

The incredible determination, professionalism and compassion that we see from staff comes against the backdrop of six years of pay restraint. Salary increases for NHS staff have either been frozen or capped at a level far below the rate of inflation. According to Unison, between 2010 and 2016 that represented a cut of more than £4.3 billion from NHS staff salaries, or a loss of between 12% and 19% in actual value since 2010. The Royal College of Nursing believes that since 2011 there has been a real-terms drop in earnings of 14% for its members. With Treasury forecasts indicating that the cost of living will go up by more than 3% every year between 2018 and 2020, it is not difficult to see how the current policy on pay restraint is unsustainable.

The policy is already beginning to have a huge personal impact on some of those affected. Registration fees have gone up by more than a third in two years, and we know well that wages have not kept pace with the cost of living. As we have heard, particularly from my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North, staff surveys from the RCN and Unison found that nearly two thirds of staff feel worse off financially than they did a year ago. Forty-nine per cent. had asked for financial support from a family or friend, 13% had used a debt advice service and 11% had used a payday loan company. About a third of nurses are struggling to pay their gas and electricity bills, 53% are working extra hours just to pay their everyday bills and 11% had pawned possessions. The Cavell Nurses’ Trust also found that 20% of nurses had skipped a meal in the last year due to money worries. Those are not abstract figures; they represent real people.

There was a lobby of Parliament today, and I am sure that some hon. Members in the Chamber went to hear at first hand from nurses how they are struggling. I met a nurse from the west midlands who works three days a week because of her caring responsibilities. She told me that she is living below the poverty line. Are we not ashamed that someone caring for our most vulnerable has to live like that? Are we really comfortable with a situation in which the people we are asking to care for our loved ones are having to pawn their possessions in order to make ends meet? In one of the richest countries in the world, can any of us accept the sight of nurses going to food banks?

Nowhere is the problem more acute than in our capital city. The Nursing Times reported that 40% of nurses who currently live in London say that the cost of housing means they will be forced to leave the capital in the next five years. Of course that challenge is not unique to the health service, but vacancy rates in the London area are among the highest in the country, with at least 10,000 nursing vacancies. How long will it be before we reach a tipping point from which there will be no recovery?

The impact is not just on nurses in their daily lives outside work, but on their working environment. NHS staff surveys paint a picture that cannot be ignored. The 2015 survey for England found that 48% of those surveyed stated that a lack of staff was impinging on their ability to do their job, and only 43% felt able to manage all the conflicting demands on their time. The warning signs are there for us all to see.

Analysis of NHS England data by the Health Service Journal found that 96% of NHS hospital trusts in England had fewer nurses covering day shifts in October than they had planned, and 85% did not have the desired numbers working at night. In 2013, the regulator Monitor, now part of NHS Improvement, warned about the potential impact of continuing pay restraint, stating in a report:

“Capping wages for longer to keep costs down would be self-defeating for the sector in the long term as it would make recruiting and retaining good quality professionals increasingly difficult.”

We had that very clear warning four years ago, but we have not heeded it.

The evidence that we have heard today and on previous occasions has proved that that prophecy was correct. The Public Accounts Committee reported that the number of nurses leaving their jobs increased from 6.8% in 2010-11 to 9.2% in 2014-15. Simon Stevens gave evidence to that Committee in 2014, stating that pay restraint would not be an “indefinitely repeatable strategy”, yet that is exactly what the Government propose to do.

Pay restraint, along with a cut to the number of nurse training places in 2010, led to a situation in which the amount of money that the NHS spent on agency staff soared by £800 million in a single year to £3.3 billion in 2014-15. Although considerable steps have been taken to bear down on the figure since then, the situation only developed because of poor and short-term decisions made by the Government, and it remains the case that we still spend far too much public money on agency staff because the NHS has been unable to recruit and retain enough of its own. If we had maintained the levels set by the last Labour Government, we would have had 8,000 more nurses trained during the last Parliament.

Recent figures have revealed that the agency staff cap has been breached almost 2.7 million times in its first nine months of operation. That is a clear example of the impact of the recruitment and retention crisis on all areas of the NHS and how the current workforce balance is completely out of kilter. The use of agency staff is meant to be a temporary measure in times of particular demand and stress for the workforce, not a permanent feature. The fact that these incidences have run into the millions in less than a year should be a huge concern to the Government and a clear warning that the stability and continuity that we all want to see in our workforce is a long way from being achieved. The Government urgently need to address the situation in which hospitals seem unable to provide safe levels of care without relying permanently on agency staff.

The dependency on agency staff has made the case for a pay increase as strong as it has ever been. That is the view not only of the Royal College of Nursing, but of those that look at the impact of skills shortages on the wider economy. In March 2016 the Migration Advisory Committee found that many nurses are moving to agency work or leaving the profession altogether. The fact that the Government have had to put nurses on the skills shortages list should have been the point at which they realised that their pay restraint policy had reached the end of the road. Instead, they have ploughed on regardless, treating the symptoms rather than the cause.

In that regard, the disastrous policy of having tuition fees for student nurses will almost certainly make the position worse, not better. The Royal College of Nursing warned at the time that the policy could act as a disincentive for students from some backgrounds—particularly mature students and those on lower incomes—and early indications are that applications to study are down by at least 20%. If that turns out to be an accurate reflection of the position, the pressure on existing staff can only increase.

[Justin Madders]

I am glad to hear that my hon. Friend is out on the doorstep on a Saturday morning, but sorry that the news she was given is so concerning. It is not, however, a surprise. This is something that just about everyone interested in the matter warned the Government of and, as she says, we will find out in the next month or so what the final figures are. If they are of the order that we are hearing about, the Government will have the opportunity seriously to reconsider the policy. Today, when I attended the lobby, I heard some student nurses saying that they are finding it difficult to get staff mentors, because senior staff are exhausted. They do not blame those staff for that; they understand the intolerable pressure, because they too see it for themselves.

The change to student fees will add an extra penalty on those training from this year onwards, due to the Government’s decision to freeze the student loan repayment threshold at £21,000. That means that all future nurses will face a real-terms pay cut. According to Unison, based on current salaries, the average nurse, midwife or allied health professional will lose more than £900 per year to meeting their debt repayments. In practical terms, for a nurse on band 5, that means a salary cut approaching 5%. It is abundantly clear that that will make staff retention harder, not easier; there is a clear link between pay and retention levels.

Nobody is suggesting for a minute that anyone who goes into nursing is motivated by money, but when someone who has just finished yet another draining shift, going above and beyond the call of duty time and again, finds that they do not have enough cash in the bank to feed themselves and their family, and when each year their wages buy them less and less, they could be forgiven for thinking, “Is it all worth it?” It is morally wrong for the Government to put our nurses in that position, and it makes no sense economically either.

[Lilian Greenwood]

That is precisely the point that one of my constituents, a nurse, made when she wrote to me. She said that she graduated last year and is earning only £21,900, one of the lowest starting salaries among her graduate friends. She says that only months into her dream profession, she feels

“worn down by the strains put on the NHS. I face continued pressures every day. Most 12-hour shifts I don’t get my unpaid break, and I leave late.”

That is on top of knowing that she is not being properly rewarded for the work that she does. Is that not precisely why our nurses are feeling so demoralised?

[Justin Madders]

Yes. It is sad to hear that someone who has only just started out in the profession is being ground down so much already and is feeling so unappreciated. It is a story and a message that we hear repeatedly from our constituents who work in the health service. The Government need to listen carefully to it.

The RCN’s submission to the pay review body not long ago said:

“Having faced a long period of pay restraint, it is inevitable that a large number of staff are now undertaking agency work as a way of restoring the real value of their earnings. Further restraint will only lead to even more damaging impact to the recruitment, retention and motivation of the most valuable asset the NHS has.”

Those comments were echoed by the House of Commons Health Committee in July 2016, which said that

“a long term pay squeeze has unintended consequences for recruitment and retention, which may drive higher costs.”

The independent Nuffield Trust made a similar statement after the 2015 summer Budget. It said that

“curbing public sector pay may make it even harder for the Government to realise some of its totemic pledges, such as seven-day working and reducing reliance on temporary staff.”

All those comments have come before the implications are clear for recruitment and retention of the thousands of staff who come from the EU. If they left tomorrow, it would make the current staffing gaps seem like a golden age.

I conclude with a couple more quotes. The first states that

“as the economy returns to growth, NHS pay will need to stay broadly in line with private sector wages in order to recruit and retain frontline staff.”

That quote is from a document that I am sure is known to us all, the NHS “Five Year Forward View”. Median weekly earnings for full-time employees in the private sector rose by 3.4% in 2016. I referred earlier to the anticipated increases in the cost of living over the next three years, which are bound to put more upward pressure on private sector wages.

The second quote is from a document entitled “The Conservative Party Manifesto 2015”, which I do not generally quote. Page 38 says:

“We will implement the NHS’s own plan to improve health care even further—the Five Year Forward View.”

As the Conservative party manifesto includes a clear commitment to delivering “Five Year Forward View”, and as it is clear that pay restraint needs to end to improve recruitment and retention rates, I must ask exactly what is preventing that from happening. I would be grateful if the Minister, when he responds, could tell us whether he considers the current policy of pay restraint to be consistent with the successful delivery of “Five Year Forward View”.

Labour agree with what has been said, be it by the cross-party Health Committee, the King’s Fund, the Nuffield Trust or the Health Foundation, about the need to end pay restraint. We agree with their crystal-clear message, and that of many hon. Members who have spoken in this debate, that further pay restraint for NHS staff would be self-defeating and unsustainable. We therefore endorse the wording of the petition.

I conclude with another quote from the Migration Advisory Committee, which said:

“The restraint on nurses’ pay instituted by the government was presented to us, and in the evidence to the pay review bodies, as an immutable fact. It is not. It is a choice”.

That is the nub of it: this is a political choice that does not need to continue. The Government have persisted with a damaging policy in pursuit of an objective that they have now abandoned, yet despite all the evidence that that policy is self-defeating and will cost more in the long run, the pay cap remains in place. It is a choice that they have made. It is the wrong choice, and it is time that they accept that they have got it wrong and change course before it is too late.