Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill

Kevin Hollinrake Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Friday 11th May 2018 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making some strong points. He will be aware that there is already a requirement for employers to give reasonable time off when people suffer such tragedies but, as he says, the Bill seeks to ensure that the employers who would not normally be generous and sympathetic also give people the time off that they need at times of great tragedy and grief.

[Kevin Foster]

My hon. Friend is right that a reasonable employer will behave differently from the type of person at whom the legislation is aimed. To be blunt, the legislation will target the sort of person who adopts the employment practices of Scrooge and Marley—an admittedly small number of employers—but I do not want the Bill to offer a get-out for people who may want to act inappropriately. We must ensure that Parliament’s intention is clear in the legislation that we pass.

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[Kevin Foster]

I take the points my hon. Friend is making. As I said at the outset, I fully support the Bill—I have no intention of giving a five-hour speech as an attempt to talk it out. When it comes to the key moment, I will not seek a decision on these amendments if that would endanger the Bill. However, it is right that we have this discussion today so that Ministers can listen to the opinions of the House. Sadly, tribunals and courts will be called on to interpret the Bill, but our discussion means they will be able to see clearly that Parliament was not setting a maximum and saying that the provision should stop there, but deciding where the floor—the minimum—should be.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

My hon. Friend is making some excellent points. The Bill has an impact on the Treasury, with an annual cost of about £3.2 million, because the taxpayer—not the Treasury itself, clearly—will be picking up the tab for the statutory pay element. We have to take that key consideration into account. We must also consider costs for businesses, especially small businesses, as they will suffer the effects more than larger businesses. Small businesses find it much more difficult to cater for absence. As there is already a predicted cost of £2.6 million a year for small businesses, does my hon. Friend agree that we need to strike a balance by taking into account the interests of both business and the individuals who suffer these tragedies?

[Kevin Foster]

Obviously my hon. Friend is right to say that a balance needs to be struck. On issues such as how much leave there should be, who this applies to and how it applies, we need to strike a balance against cost, particularly to small businesses. It is worth pointing out, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) rightly mentioned, that many small businesses are likely to be the most reasonable with their employees in any case.

My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton is a great champion of small businesses in this Chamber. Sometimes we rightly talk about not wishing to impose this cost or that cost, but a lot of the time we find that some of the worst examples of poorer employment practice are in one or two larger employers, where a rigid rule is applied fiercely to try to squeeze the last pound out, whereas smaller businesses work more as a team. If we walked into the room and were asked to guess who the owner of a small business was, we would not be able to do so, as the business works as a collective. I can think of hotels in Torbay where the owner of a hotel that is worth millions can be found serving the spuds, as the hotel does silver service—they do literally every job in the hotel, as well as being the owner and manager. However, I accept that there is a balance to be struck.

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I am conscious that time is moving on and others wish to speak, so I shall deal with a couple more amendments. My amendment 4 would increase the minimum time off from work from two to four weeks. I accept that two weeks is an improvement on the current statutory provision, but it seems too short, and I was looking more towards a 28-day period. In response to the intervention made by the hon. Member for Lincoln, I touched on the fact that people might want to take bits of time off over a longer period to reflect the impact of losing a child, perhaps because of a particular birthday or event that they were looking forward to. For example, someone who had lost a child who was studying at college may find that date of the certificates night would be difficult for them. We should explore why we have opted to provide for a fortnight rather than 28 days. If the promoter of the Bill wishes to advance an explanation, I will be interested to hear it, either in an intervention or in his speech. The Minister may also wish to reflect on this point. It is not unreasonable to consider a minimum of 28 days, and I would be interested to hear from my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton the rationale as to why—

[Kevin Hollinrake]

rose—

[Kevin Foster]

I think that I am about to hear it now, so I happily give way.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I am happy to come back on this point. We are clearly dealing with a minimum here. We expect employers to be—our evidence absolutely supports the fact that they are—generous and sympathetic in such situations. Many of them give full pay and provide whatever time is needed for the parent to try to recover—or to move on—from the tragedy. We are trying to cater for the isolated numbers of employers who do not take that approach. We believe that one in 10 does not provide a sympathetic and generous policy when these things happen. So we are trying to strike a balance while sending a signal to those employers that they should be generous and sympathetic in such situations.

[Kevin Foster]

I take on board my hon. Friend’s point, but legislating is not just about sending a signal—we can do that by tabling a motion, making a speech or putting a question to a Minister. This is about setting down a piece of law that is not signalling what employers should do, but telling them what they must do. He is right to say that the Bill will not make much difference at all to 90% of employers. The small business that works as a team and the larger employer that values its staff will be able to sit back and think, “This is pretty much what we do already,” with the exception that the Bill provides for statutory parental bereavement leave and for the taxpayer to make certain payments. The Bill is about dealing with that 10%.

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[Kevin Foster]

I recognise that for some employers, particularly microbusinesses in which there might be only two, three or even four employees, it is not about wanting to be nasty, but about the position of a business that is operating hand to mouth incurring the costs of agency staff and so on. That is why it is right that the taxpayer is involved in supporting people at a difficult time. I do not think that any of us object to the taxpayer sharing some of the costs of this provision, rather than it all being loaded on to employers. I accept that there is a balance between what we expect employers to do and what the taxpayer should be asked to pay for.

Having discussed microbusinesses, perhaps this is a good time to move on to amendment 8. I will be interested to hear the thoughts of the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton about what type of job will be covered. Many people might think, “Really? You have a job and you get paid. That’s simple enough.” Unfortunately, it is not quite that simple in the modern economy. It is not like the situation in decades past when it was perhaps quite easy to identify someone’s employer.

The Bill refers to jobs of a kind specified by regulations, and I am particularly keen to know that there will not be a sort of shopping list of the jobs covered such that if someone delivers milk in the morning, they are be fine, but if someone works on a farm milking a cow, they will not be covered because that job is not listed. My amendment deals with the question of whether someone is employed, and we have a good definition of that in law. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is only too keen to define people as employed so that they can be taxed appropriately on their income from their employment.

I hope that we can explore exactly how we will cover some of the new models of employment, in which someone may not have a job with one employer but regularly works for a group. I am thinking particularly of the gig economy, in which someone might be working irregular shifts, but are to all intents and purposes an employee of an employer. How do we deal with different types of employment model? I accept that we will not be able to cover absolutely every single situation in which someone is paid to do something on someone else’s behalf. There will always be debates about how we treat self-employment. Indeed, the debate about national insurance contributions and what the self-employed are eligible to claim from the welfare and benefits system showed the difficulties with these things.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

My hon. Friend makes a strong point. The world of work is certainly changing. He will be aware of the Matthew Taylor review, which has been examining issues relating to the gig economy and how we define someone as an employee or a worker, as well as all the different categories of employment and self-employment. We want to keep options open in the Bill so that we can mirror the outcomes of the Taylor review when those issues are settled. We therefore will not have measures in the Bill that we cannot change; we will have flexibility to make sure that people who deserve to be covered by the Bill are covered.

[Kevin Foster]

I thank my hon. Friend for helping to bring some clarity to the matter. I did not want to get back to the old idea of what a “proper job” is that some of us used to hear at school. It is amazing how many people thought that certain things were proper jobs, and it has to be said that it was mostly men and that a proper job was one that was traditionally male orientated—surprise, surprise—and other things were just basic jobs. However, the sorts of jobs that were once dismissed—in care, healthcare and other areas—are vital in today’s economy, and we need people to be doing them and to see them as the type of job and career that they want to go into.

While exploring the Bill, I was concerned that we should not end up with Parliament in effect asking the Minister to draw up a list of every job he could possibly think of and every type of employment activity that could ever be done for an employer, so amendment 8 is about targeting whether someone is employed. I am conscious that we have to make sure that our language and intentions are fairly clear. We should bear in mind our brief debate on another private Member’s Bill, the Unpaid Trial Work Periods (Prohibition) Bill. Most of us would think that a trial was a very short period—perhaps an hour or two, just to see how someone mixed with a team—but the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Stewart Malcolm McDonald) gave an example of a place that had interpreted a trial as several weeks of working for nothing. Clearly, none of us would view that as a trial; the process was just about trying to dodge minimum and living wage legislation. We need to make sure that there is no opportunity to misuse what we all might think are reasonable words in the English language.

I am conscious of time and wish to give others the opportunity to speak. I shall listen carefully to the arguments made by the Minister and the Bill’s promoter, my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton, when they speak about my amendments. I have been reassured by some of the interventions I have taken from my hon. Friend, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester for his interventions, which have helped to clarify some points. To be clear, I will support the Bill even if my amendments are not accepted. It would not be beneficial for anyone if the Bill was not passed.

This welcome Bill will help many in the darkest times of their lives. My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton can take great pride in the difference that his Bill will make to those people, and my hon. Friends the Members for Eddisbury and for Colchester can take great pride in how they have used their personal experience to help others who end up in the same position. I support the Bill wholeheartedly and hope that the discussion of my amendments will help to make it even better.

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I am glad that I have been able to contribute to this Bill as it has made its passage through Committee. The care that we have all taken has ensured that this very fragile thing—a private Member’s Bill is like holding a piece of very fragile china—made it to this very important stage, and that is thanks in no small part to the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton. This Bill rights a wrong. It corrects the injustice that bereaved parents who bury their son or daughter are, under the law, do not have any paid, or unpaid, specific entitlement to time off work. That means that any leave that is taken in such circumstances is entirely at the discretion of employers. We have heard today that, although most employers will be sympathetic to a member of staff facing such a loss, not just as an employer but as a fellow human being, others, as the hon. Member for Eddisbury reminded us this morning, may not be. We have heard anecdotal evidence of such cases, particularly in Committee.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

May I put on record my thanks to the hon. Lady for her work on this Bill, particularly during Committee stage. Earlier, she said that we had worked together to improve this Bill. I and my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince) were delighted that the Government were willing to accept her amendment on stillbirth. That is a clear sign of how cross-party working can improve legislation as it goes through the House. That particular amendment will always be attributed to my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester and the hon. Lady.

[Patricia Gibson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words. What the Bill has shown, across this House, is the best of what the House of Commons can be. It is unfortunate that we cannot work in a more consensual manner on many more issues. On an issue such as this, when it is about human beings, compassion and feelings for our fellow man, this House has come out today looking much better than it often does. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his words.

To face the death of a son or daughter with no entitlement to paid leave under the law is a terrible injustice that generations of people before us have suffered. I am proud to say that, today, we will correct that. The Bill sets out a minimum leave period of two weeks. I know that that is not very long, but given that currently there is no entitlement at all, it offers a start and provides legal recognition that the response to such a life-changing event can no longer be—and should no longer be—a matter of discretion for employers. This is one of those days when, whatever criticism people make of the House of Commons, either justified or unjustified, we can feel that we are making a real and practical difference to people’s lives as they face the worst circumstances imaginable—the death of their child.

Let me turn to amendments 22 and 23. We know the trauma that accompanies the death of a child. The first reaction is shock and disbelief, especially in the case of a sudden death. A parent may initially refuse to accept the loss and try to continue as normal, blocking out the experience, which is a common feature of trauma. For some parents, going on as far as possible as though the death is not “real” will be a reaction that helps them cope. Keeping busy is a coping strategy that many use and one that, to a great extent, my own husband used when our baby was stillborn at full term. People cope with the devastation of losing a child in a variety of ways. As the hon. Member for Torbay pointed out, there is no right or wrong way to do this. That is why the amendments are important. If they are passed, they will provide a signal to bereaved parents. The Bill is saying, “We recognise the trauma of your loss and we recognise its life-changing nature, but it is important that you take your leave between these particular weeks, from this date to that date.” I do not believe that that is really what we wish to do; it is not the message that we want to send out, which is why flexibility is so important.

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[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

This is an important and sensitive issue. I am acutely aware that some Members who have been involved with the Bill throughout its passage have direct experience of losing a child, and I commend the bravery with which they have used their personal experiences to do good for others. In my family, my mum experienced the loss of my older sister who I never knew. She died some years before I was born, and for the rest of her life my mum was unable to speak about the loss of her daughter—I know that others have mentioned such experiences. It is something that has been present throughout my lifetime, unmentioned but always there in our family in the background. My sister’s name was Rebecca, which is also the name that my other sister gave to her daughter in her memory.

This Bill can only be a positive step. I am aware of the anxieties about it, but I am sure that none of us wish to do anything to scupper its progress. All those who are going through the ordeal and trauma of losing a child should at least be able to have some paid time away from their employment to deal with the practical elements of a bereavement, as well as the undoubted grief and pain associated with the death of a child.

Families, family relationships and caring relationships in our society are beautifully diverse, and it is right that legislation that offers entitlement to leave because of someone’s relationship with a child reflects that diversity. Often, those who are primary carers are not the biological mother or father of the child. They could be grandparents, other members of the extended family, or those who have opted to care for the child through formal means such as fostering, in a residential care home, or through adoption—my wife and I have gone through that experience and we have two adopted children.

In this country we—including under this Government—encourage foster carers to build loving relationships with children in their care, and rightly so. It is therefore only right and proper to make provision in law, so that people who are caring for a child, in whatever circumstances, are given paid leave if that child dies. That is in recognition of the fact that although those people may not be biological parents, they will often be parents, perhaps even legally, and they will form deep and meaningful relationships with the children in their care. They will suffer pain if they lose that child, and they will need time to make practical arrangements, including a funeral, and of course time to grieve.

How and when grief hits a parent can vary, as does the time at which practical arrangements associated with bereavement are needed. Arranging a funeral is just one of a huge list of responsibilities in the wake of the death of a child. There could be involvement with a coroner, and an ability to take the leave entitlement at varying points and not all at once would be welcome. People may need a day off to register the death, and they may need more time off weeks later because they are too low or upset to attend work. Grief does not come and go in a neat two-week period; it is something that stays with people, as I described with my mum’s experience. Although it is not practical to extend the leave entitlement to an undefined period, that entitlement should be valid for a sensibly long period of time—a year seems reasonable. It should also be possible to take the leave at more than one time.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

The hon. Gentleman is making good points and speaking very movingly. Does he accept that this is principally a signal to employers? There are many different circumstances involving this kind of tragedy, and everybody’s situation is different. Fundamentally, we are trying to ensure that all employers are generous, sympathetic and flexible in how they treat such situations, and that they provide leave and pay that is fair in all different circumstances. However, we cannot necessarily provide for all those things in legislation.

[Bill Esterson]

The hon. Gentleman is right and I commend him on promoting this Bill. I would like to pick up on some of the points he made about employment, self-employment, and the impact of the Bill on businesses. A good employer would certainly want to look after its staff—indeed, it is in its interests to do so. If an employer wants to retain staff, it should look after them, and that is also the right thing to do more generally. As we have heard, the vast majority of employers already do what is set out in the Bill in practice, and the Bill rightly ensures that all employers have a minimum set of standards to follow.

I take on board the point about whether this is the right time to consider broadening the provision to cover adult children, but we are talking about a relatively small number of people who would qualify for an entitlement to leave. We are talking about someone who loses a child, whether that child is under or over the age of 18—the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson) described losing his brother who was 24. It does not matter at what age this happens; it is an extremely painful situation for family members, and I understand that my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Laura Pidcock) reminded the Committee of just that point. In the mind of a parent the pain never ceases, whatever the age of the child.

Although an older child might have a family of their own to help with practical arrangements, that is not always the case. Indeed, some older children are dependent on their parents—for example, parents may still care for a disabled adult. It is perfectly possible that a worker aged 60 could have a daughter or son who dies aged 30 or older, and it is reasonable for them to be afforded paid leave for all the reasons given for younger children. Lifting the age limit of what it means to be a child could be done either in the Bill or later, in recognition of just how exceptional these circumstances are.

Out of all the employment rights currently written into law, parental bereavement leave and pay is something that no one in the Chamber would ever want to apply for. Increasing leave entitlement from zero days and no pay to two weeks’ paid leave at a statutory minimum rate is a welcome step, although I am sure that many people who have lost a child would tell us that two weeks is nowhere near long enough, and perhaps a longer period of leave might be right. However, for purposes of the Bill we are discussing two weeks’ paid leave, which would be a significant and important step forward.

It is crucial that bereavement pay is paid immediately after the death of a child. A parent or carer should not have to worry about whether they can afford to take time off, and that should not be another thing added to the extreme stress that bereavement often creates. The statutory minimum rate is certainly better than nothing, although I fear, having had to take a hit on pay, that if pay is not given in full that may still exclude some from taking leave. Certainly the statutory minimum is better than nothing, and a step forward for those employers that currently do not provide such support.

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[Michelle Donelan]

I completely echo my hon. Friend’s comments. I pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) and for Colchester (Will Quince), as well as everybody else in the House who has contributed to the Bill, including all members of the Public Bill Committee. The Bill commands cross-party support, as well as support from the public, who will note today’s debate and see that Parliament sometimes really is in touch with people and their needs.

I echo comments about the fact that when employers are very generous towards their employees, it fosters a sense of loyalty and respect among them. I am sure that employers’ ability to offer this additional support will go some way towards developing that even further. Some of the amendments relate to the amount of leave that can be given. I honestly think that we can never quantify the length of time that it takes to get over a loss—in fact, we never really do get fully over a loss, be that of a child or anybody else who is significant in our lives—so I question whether the time being allowed is enough, although it is a good start. The whole point is that the Bill is supposed to set out the minimum, and we might revisit this and look to increase the time through secondary legislation.

We have discussed when people can take leave. There is a strong argument that an eight-week period is too arbitrary and very strict, because of such things as inquests, anniversaries and the dates when it really hits home. We must also remember that the Bill offers statutory pay, and people who only get that might not be able to afford to take time within those eight weeks. They might have to save up or make provision as a result of debts or the unexpected bills that people have to pay when someone dies. They might also not be ready for those losses. We cannot expect that somehow their financial burdens will suddenly disappear—that can take time.

We have heard an interesting discussion about the age of the child. It is important to remember that no matter how old someone’s child is, they are still that person’s child. Whether someone is 18 or 40, the loss is still huge, and Members have mentioned their personal experiences of that today. There is an argument for increasing the age from 18. We might not be able to do that in this Bill, but perhaps we can look at the position again. I echo the comment from my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson) that the burden would probably not increase fivefold, because a lot of people will be retired by the time their child is lost. It is important to remember that not everybody will take up the offer, and some employers would offer their own scheme, so their employees would not be looking at the statutory benefit. We can explore this area more, and I think that further research and investigation needs to determine the cost to the taxpayer if the provision were extended.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

My hon. Friend is making some excellent points. As I am sure she is aware, there is a consultation on many of the issues to which she refers. I absolutely accept that we need to consider the eight-week window, for example, and that is one matter that is subject to consultation. I urge her and any Members who may have an interest in this, as well as constituents and charities, to submit evidence to the consultation, which I believe expires at 11.45 pm on 8 June.

[Michelle Donelan]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention and for clarifying that very specific time of 11.45 pm. I will urge all my constituents to contribute to the consultation, especially those who can bring their own experience to it.

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[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a very good speech. Some powerful arguments have been made on both sides about the 18 threshold. Is my hon. Friend at least reassured that, as I understand it, parents of those over 18 would be covered by the “reasonableness” provisions?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

indicated assent.

[Chris Philp]

I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton is indicating his agreement with my hon. Friend’s point, and that is certainly good enough for me. I do take comfort from the fact that the “reasonableness” provisions would apply for children over 18. However, it is a difficult question, and we have heard some powerful commentary on it from Members on both sides of the House.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester has just returned to the Chamber, I want to comment on an amendment that he tabled in Committee, which was passed unanimously and which extended the Bill’s provisions to stillborn children born after 24 weeks of gestation. I know that my hon. Friend has had a very tragic personal experience of that. I strongly welcome and support that extension, and I congratulate him on the amendment, but let me observe in passing—to the Minister in particular—that, perhaps not in this Bill but on some future occasion, we might also consider entitlement to parental leave for the parents of very premature children who are lucky enough to survive.

I am one of those parents. My twins were born after 25 weeks and one day, which is extraordinarily premature. They were very lucky—blessed, in fact—to survive. I remember that night in the intensive care unit, where, as the Minister can imagine, there were so many parents who were extremely distressed, whatever the precise circumstances that their children were in. I ask the Minister to consider providing for extra parental leave in the case of very premature births, although this Bill may not be the right place to do it, and it may be too late to introduce amendments. The experience of parents with children in neonatal care units after 20-something weeks of gestation is very difficult. However, the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester at least improves the Bill in that regard.

Amendment 7, also tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay—he has clearly been working extremely hard—makes it clear that, while the employee could receive additional pay from the employer above and beyond the statutory minimum, only the statutory minimum would be reimbursed by the taxpayer. My hon. Friend pointed out in interventions on the hon. Member for Sefton Central that the statutory minimum is just that: it is a floor, not a ceiling. Although that is the extent of taxpayer support, I am sure that Members on both sides of the House would strongly encourage employers to reimburse employees at their full rate of employment during periods of compassionate leave, for that or for any other reason. I hope that any employers who are listening to the debate or reading the report of it will take careful note of that exhortation. As one who set up and ran businesses for 15 years before being elected, I know that my businesses would always have taken such action without question.

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[James Cartlidge]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston), who made an excellent speech. I join him and others in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) on introducing the Bill.

While this has been a cross-party effort—I congratulate everyone who has contributed—I am particularly proud to be part of a cohort of heart-on-sleeve-wearing compassionate Conservatives who have done their constituents and their country proud by delivering change in an area that really matters to people. The cost of the Bill is tiny, as we have heard, but the cost to people who experience bereavement is immeasurable. I hope that I never experience such bereavement. Indeed, I regard myself as incredibly fortunate to have had four healthy children.

I rise to speak to amendments 22 and 8, and briefly to amendments 21, 24 and 25 on the cut-off point. On amendment 22, the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster) spoke extremely well about the way in which the period of leave will be taken and the need for flexibility.

I have four children, and I was a self-employed company owner. When I had the first two, the company was basically just me, so I did not really take leave. When I had Nos. 3 and 4, I was fortunate that the company had a few more staff, so I was able to take proper leave— Nos. 3 and 4 came at the same time, meaning there was somewhat more need for my support. That period soon ran into the selection process for my constituency and a lot of time pressure, so I was pleased to be in that position, but of course many people are not.

The consultation, entirely reasonably and rationally, says that in considering the structure of the time block for this leave, we will consider the existing arrangements for maternity and paternity leave. Whenever we legislate, it is entirely rational that we look at existing measures so that we do not reinvent the wheel. Page 13 of the consultation says:

“The Bill has mirrored existing provisions for family related leave and pay rights where possible and, in particular, Paternity Leave and Pay. But where the detail is left to be set in regulations, the regulations could be different to those for existing rights.”

This is the key point:

“Paternity Leave and Pay cannot be taken in separate blocks of a week: a father or partner is merely able to choose whether to take just one or both of the weeks available.”

I have been particularly moved by the arguments made today that underline why bereavement leave is very different from paternity leave, and why the circumstances could require extra flexibility.

The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran gave good examples of why we might want flexibility. She talked about court hearings—I think there is a different phrase for inquiries in Scotland—and the fact that more flexibility might be needed in such circumstances. It is important that what we do in this place mirrors what happens in the real world.

In contrast, when I think back to being a new dad, it seems rational that paternity leave is taken in a single block, ideally when the child is born, when help is most needed. With my first child—my daughter—I well remember the intensity of those early days, when I prayed every hour that the baby would at some point sleep through the night. There is an early period of intensity that a parent sincerely hopes will reduce, which is why there is sense in taking the block together. That is a rational position. We have heard powerful examples from hon. Members about the need for flexibility on bereavement leave, however, so I hope that the Minister will respond to them.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

My hon. Friend is making some excellent points. It might not seem that we have best reason for taking this approach; as he rightly points out, the flexibility required in the circumstances of bereavement is entirely different from that needed in the case of paternity leave. However, the difficulty we are dealing with relates to processes in Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and its ability to deal with statutory pay. The bureaucracies that support the decisions we make in this House should not necessarily drive our thinking, but they are a consideration to which we must pay due regard.

[James Cartlidge]

I thank my hon. Friend for clarifying the point. Indeed, I did note that from the consultation document, which referred to that fact that the benefit itself limits the flexibility. We all know how difficult it is to change systems, and we can well imagine the difficulty in the social security system, with employer software and so on, in giving out the benefit on the basis of sporadic days. However, there would still be merit in someone having the ability to take unpaid one-off days. I think most people would rather have that freedom, even if it is not possible for it to be covered by the statutory pay they would receive because of the limitations of HMRC’s and other systems.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Underpinning all this are the general principles and our expectation that employers would be understanding, sympathetic and flexible in how they deal with this situation. We are setting out the minimum requirements, but we would expect employers to show that compassion and flexibility when dealing with how people take the leave.

[James Cartlidge]

I am grateful for that intervention and do agree with it. If we were to have the single block but there was an exceptional reason to grant an additional day—or even that—at a future point, most employers would be prepared to do so. In most cases, employers will act reasonably as long as a reasonable request is made.

Amendment 8, which was tabled by my hon. Friends the Members for Torbay and for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson), is important as it touches on defining the employment status that someone must have to be eligible for these new rights. Proposed new section 80EB (1)(c) of the Employment Rights Act 1996 states:

“an employee who is absent on leave under that section is entitled to return from leave to a job of a kind prescribed by regulations”.

That prescription therefore relates to the type of employment, with the word “employee” being crucial. The issues arising from the Taylor review and the changing nature of employment have already been mentioned, and we have to discuss the extent to which these rights would be available to employees in those newly growing, ambiguous areas.

My hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Michelle Donelan) referred to the self-employed, but of course we are not talking about a homogenous group. Before the general election, when I served on the Work and Pensions Committee, we held an inquiry on the gig economy—this growing army of the self-employed. We heard evidence about cases in which people are, to all intents and purposes, employees. On this amendment, my question for the Minister is: in defining jobs and defining people as an “employee”, are we able to award these benefits—these rights—to those defined now as “workers”? I refer to those people in between employment and self-employment. Are we able to do that, or do we need to introduce separate regulations to do so?

That is an important point, so it is handy that I have a copy of the Taylor review. The Bill amends the primary piece of legislation to which it relates—the 1996 Act—and we are dealing with the important distinction between an employee and a worker. I remind the House that the 1996 Act states that an

“‘employee’ means an individual who has entered into or works under…a contract of employment.”

I will not go into the detailed definition in the report, but a worker is someone who has some form of contract.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I thank the Minister for his very clear representation of the Bill and his responses to the amendments, which I will not cover in great detail because he did an excellent job of that. I also thank the small business Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths), for all his work in taking this Bill forward. He cannot be here today, but I know he very much wanted to be present to see the Bill, hopefully, through its final stages.

I also thank all Members who have contributed today and throughout the passage of the Bill. We have heard excellent speeches that have helped to shape the Bill. I thank in particular those Members who have been willing to share their personal experiences; there is nothing better to make sure that the Bill is fit for purpose as it goes through this House and the other place than hearing from Members from both sides of the House who have suffered such experiences. I have been lucky in my life, as I have four very healthy children. We have had a few mishaps along the way, but nothing along the lines of a stillbirth or the loss of a child. It amazes me—I find it inspirational—that Members are able to talk about their experiences in this Chamber.

I have had experiences from another relevant perspective—as an employer. Prior to entering this House I was an employer for 25 years, and I am still associated with the business. A number of people who worked for us have suffered these terrible tragedies, and I cannot think it ever entered our minds that we would not give people the leave that they needed for as long as they needed it, and to pay them without any deduction from their normal pay. That is the approach we have always taken, and I absolutely believe that it is the approach that the vast majority of employers in this country take, too. It is important to recognise that all the proposals and amendments are, understandably, trying to deal with the minority—the one in 10 who do not do the right thing—but those contributions are nevertheless incredibly important.

I want to thank a number of people individually. The first of them must be my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince). I am definitely the baton-carrier —if that is the right expression—for this Bill, as he brought forward a very similar Bill in the last Parliament but could not get it through in time. We absolutely would not have this Bill without him. Thousands of parents every year suffer these tragedies, so this is a hugely important proposal.

I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) for all her contributions, and my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Victoria Prentis), who cannot be here today but I know would have wanted to be.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but I am listening carefully to what he is saying, and while of course he can thank his colleagues and other hon. Members as often as he wishes—I have no objection; that is perfectly in order—I gently remind him that at the moment he should be addressing the amendments that we have been dealing with since 9.35 this morning. Once he has done that and we come to the end of this process, we will go on to Third Reading, when it is customary for the thanks to come, but of course the hon. Gentleman may wish to make his thanks more than once, and there is nothing wrong with that. If he does so more than twice or three times, I will have to say he is being repetitive, but I never discourage courtesy in this place—I am merely pointing him in this direction.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I am very grateful for that informative interruption to my remarks. I was going to move on to the amendments, but the contributions of my colleagues and Opposition Members have helped to inform the discussion around them. However, of course I will respect your views, Madam Deputy Speaker, and move on now to the amendments themselves.

The principal amendments on which most of the debate has been focused are those dealing with the definition of a bereaved parent: amendments 1, 2, 12 and 14. My hon. Friends the Members for Torbay (Kevin Foster) and for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson) talked about primary care givers and grandparents. We have had a number of contributions on this matter, not only from hon. Members but from charities and individuals who have contacted me on Facebook. We had a Facebook debate on the issue, in which Nicky Clifford said that she wanted the measure to extend to grandparents when they were the child’s primary carer. Mrs Clifford felt that the grandparents had suffered a double loss when her son died. The charity Together for Short Lives said that the right to leave should be extended to legal guardians, as did the Rainbow Trust, which also mentioned foster carers. There is certainly a wide breadth of opinion on how the regulations should be set, hence the need for a consultation. The Government are consulting on these issues now, and the consultation should come to an end at 11.45 pm on 8 June. I urge all Members to make submissions to the consultation on the definition of a parent before that is set in regulations.

The other key amendments were amendments 3, 5, 20 and 23, which relate to the window during which leave can be taken. The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) talked about the shock and disbelief that is felt when these things happen. Of course every case is entirely different, so it is absolutely right that we should be flexible. The same point was made by my hon. Friends the Members for Torbay and for Mid Dorset and North Poole. This was the principal area into which charities had an input. Faye Williams said on Facebook that her partner had been allowed two weeks leave, but that the funeral was not arranged in time within that window. Louise Wright said that her son’s inquest was in October, five months after he had passed away. Cruse Bereavement Care said that the leave entitlement should be spread over a longer period of 52 weeks. Interestingly, one of the bereaved mothers who made a submission to the consultation through Cruse stated:

“When my child was born, I was entitled to a year off, but when he died I wasn’t entitled to a day off.”

That is an excellent reason for bringing forward this Bill.

We need to take all these things into account. It is right that there should be a baseline minimum—amendment 5 would take out that minimum—but it is also right that we should look to increase it. I am certainly sympathetic to increasing it from eight weeks to a longer period of perhaps six or 12 months. I am sure that the Minister will listen to such representations. However, we also need to keep the legislation simple for reasons of administration, and for the sake of the businesses that deal with these problems.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) talked about whether the leave needed to be taken as a two-week block. This is really about HMRC’s systems, but we would expect employers to be more flexible. On the point about extending the period of pay from two weeks to four weeks, we would need to look at the costs involved. The Bill has been carefully costed, and the cost to the Treasury will be £3.2 million per annum. The taxpayer will pay for the statutory pay, but employers will pay as well. The annual cost to businesses will be around £2.6 million, and we need to take that into account.

Amendments 6, 24, 21 and 25 focus on the age limit, and we had some good contributions on this point. From a parent’s perspective, there is no difference between the grief for someone who was 18 and that for someone who was 19. I quite understand that, and we had a number of similar submissions from the charities on this point.

My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp) mentioned this, but we need more discussion about the 24-week cut-off point between miscarriage and stillbirth, and the private Member’s Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) seeks to consider that issue. There must be a cut-off somewhere, and our friends at the Treasury certainly want to know exactly what the proposals will cost. We have already passed the money resolution, so I suggest to hon. Members that now is not the right time to try to amend the Bill in that way.

I thank hon. Members on both sides of the House for their constructive, informed and human contributions. I politely suggest that Members do not press their amendments to a Division so that we ensure that the Bill can proceed.

[Michael Tomlinson]

My hon. Friend mentioned the consultation and invited us to withdraw our amendments. Does he agree that it would be otiose—unnecessary—for us to repeat the suggestions that we have already made? This debate should be formally submitted to the consultation so that Members of Parliament do not need to write further submissions. Those involved in the consultation could simply read the Hansard reports of Second Reading, our Committee proceedings, Report and, hopefully, Third Reading.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I was pleased that my hon. Friend explained what otiose means. He is absolutely right that the Bill has been shaped as it has passed through the House. The consultation is a key part of that, and it is fair to expect that some of the Bill’s provisions will be different from those that we see today. Finally, I politely ask Members not to press their amendments to a Division and to allow the Bill to pass through the House and on to the statute book as quickly as possible so that we help more parents who suffer these terrible tragedies in their hour of greatest need.

[Kevin Foster]

It has been fascinating to listen to the past few hours of debate, and I am pleased by the discussion of the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson) and I. I was reassured to hear the Minister’s comments about the consultation, particularly that this is about setting a minimum, not a ceiling, and about practice in the civil service. I hope that the matters we have discussed today will be automatically included in the consultation, as my hon. Friend just said, without us having to write another letter stating, “As I said in the House of Commons on Friday 11 May, these are my views.” I look forward to the matter coming back for debate after the consultation has concluded, when I am sure there will be opportunities for discussion on the Floor of the House. Having listened to the Bill’s sponsor and the Minister, I beg to ask to leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.



Third Reading

Queen’s consent signified.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

With your leave, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to thank hon. Members from both sides of the House. I thank the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) for his contributions in Committee and his forbearance in the process, because I know that there are things that he would have liked to have taken forward. I thank the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson)—a constituency almost as beautiful as Thirsk and Malton. I also thank the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson), and those who played their part in Committee, particularly the hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris), who spoke so powerfully.

It is remarkable what we can achieve when we work across parties, so it has been a fantastic experience for me, and I am sure for other colleagues, to be associated with this Bill, which is about not just a new automatic entitlement to two weeks’ leave but, as we have discussed many times, a cultural change among some employers in this country to make sure everybody steps up to the mark when people suffer these tragedies.

From our research and from third-party contributions, we know that nine out of 10 employers do the right thing, but we must make sure that all employers do. We must continue to raise the bar to ensure that our employers do more and more to respect people when they have significant difficulties and are in their hour of greatest need.

This kind of debate and this kind of legislation brings out the best in this House. The debate on 10 October 2017 on Baby Loss Awareness Week was attended by Members on both sides of the House, and my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne), who was the Minister on duty that day, described it as the most moving experience he had ever had in this Chamber. It was incredible to be here to listen to those speeches from Members on both sides of the House.

Again, Members spoke movingly on Second Reading of this Bill on 20 October 2017, including my hon. Friends the Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) and for Banbury (Victoria Prentis) and the hon. Members for Swansea East and for North Ayrshire and Arran. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Mr Tomlinson) told the touching story of his own experiences and how well such experiences can inform debate in this House. At times this needs to be a more human Chamber, and today the Chamber has been more human.

Principally, of course, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince) for his inspirational leadership and steadfast commitment. As he knows, I think this Bill should be called Will’s Bill as a result. I also thank the individuals and charities that have informed this debate, and certainly my constituents Annika and James Dowson, whose stillborn baby Gypsy was my first experience, as a Member of Parliament, of some of the difficulties that people experience. I am delighted to be able to stand here to represent the Dowsons today.

Members on both sides of the House have improved the Bill. We made some important amendments in Committee to include stillbirths, and those amendments were a result of the contributions from the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran and my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester.

I thank the Government and Ministers for their support, and I thank the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the hon. Member for Watford (Richard Harrington) for his excellent words. I also thank his officials for their tremendous service—they have made all this possible.

I very much hope this Bill will proceed from this House and swiftly pass through the other place. I am delighted to help move this issue forward, and I am keen to see Will’s Bill become Will’s Act.