Financial Risk Checks for Gambling

Kenny MacAskill Excerpts

Monday 26th February 2024 Westminster Hall

[Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (Alba)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir George.

As is clear from the speeches that have been made so far, there are two aspects to this debate: the question of the regulation of gambling, and the question of the protection of horseracing. The first, I think, requires action, because there is a significant social problem, which is a point that I will come on to and that others, especially the hon. Member for Neath (Christina Rees), made so eloquently.

The second question is that of a debate between the gambling industry and horseracing. We have to differentiate there. After all, the gambling industry, or much of it, is now online, and much of it is now based in Gibraltar, so it is not even paying taxes, whereas the horseracing industry is indigenous, although it is also partly—this inference was made about horseracing—funded by the gambling industry. Yes, that is to some extent a historical anachronism, but it was no doubt done deliberately so that people would not see gambling going to the black market, with other unregulated aspects, whether that was pitch and toss, dogfights or illegal boxing matches. That ensured that a revenue stream went from gambling into horseracing, and that is fundamental.

As the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) said correctly, people might think that horseracing is flush. It is not. I, along with others, declare an interest in having horseracing within my constituency, because I represent Musselburgh. Musselburgh has had its challenges, Musselburgh had to be sold and has now been bought by Chester.

At one stage, it even looked like there might not be a buyer, because it is not as if people are lining up as they are for English Premier League—or even Scottish Premiership—football teams. There were redundancies there—I had to intervene and speak to the management about them—but they were done reluctantly, and we have had to accord to that. There are challenges in that sector. Some of this—this is the subliminal aspect—is about the gambling industry reducing the amount of money that it puts into horseracing, because it does not have the same involvement in funding football or anything else, other than the money that it makes from it.

Returning to the primary issue, there is a problem with gambling. We must recognise that people suffer. I am not some libertarian who thinks it is all just free market, with people deciding according to their free will. It is a social problem, exactly the same as alcohol and drugs. We do not un-regulate them and say, “Consume what you like.” We ensure that we know what the product is, and supervise, tax and regulate it. We can argue—I certainly do—that we sometimes go too far on drugs and not far enough on alcohol, but we must ensure that we regulate.

We must recognise that gambling has transformed. I am a child of the ’60s, when gambling was basically done in a bookies. They were foreboding and intimidating places where working men—perhaps in a flat cap—went, where women would not be seen, and that respectable men would probably not wish to be seen going into. They kept very limited hours. When I was young, they always seemed quite intimidatory. I now have a flat in Dunbar, and I can look across the high street and see a bookies. It is open early in the morning until late at night. People of all ages, genders, ethnicities go in—far too many, I must say, much as I am not opposed to people enjoying a flutter.

The whole nature of the industry has changed. As Justice Secretary in Scotland, I remember being briefed by Dr Reith from Glasgow, a world expert in gambling and how gambling has changed. People can now literally lose not just their shirt, but their house overnight if they have multiple credit cards, so there must be regulation. The nature of who gambles has also changed, because ethnic minorities who might not have gone into the working-class, working man’s bookies are now going elsewhere. I remember hearing that in Scotland we had significant difficulties with Polish people and eastern Europeans who were working in the casinos. They socialised in the casinos and therefore developed a gambling problem, because that was where they hung about. Since women and other people who would not have otherwise have gone into a bookies are doing so, we must target and address gambling. We must address the demand, which is why we must look at regulating the sponsorship of football teams and some of the television advertisements that are basically pushed in our faces—we want to watch the football but are inconvenienced by being told to to cash in by betting on the number of corners, and all these things.

That is entirely separate from horseracing. Yes, gambling is an inextricable part of horseracing. If people go to a horserace, they wish to gamble. Some will probably gamble too much and regret it, but most will not. It is a day out in Musselburgh, much as it is in other constituencies. It is an event for people; the ladies day at all racecourses is very colourful, with all hats, dresses and whatever else. People come from far and wide, and it is part of the local economy. I said there had been redundancies, but it still provides employment there and for the hotels, guesthouses and hostelries on race days. People make money, and there is a supply chain of those who provide for the horseracing industry. If we cripple it, we face not only the risk that the likes of Musselburgh will close, but the risk that people will continue to watch and bet on races, albeit those in Ireland, France, Hong Kong or wherever else, as I think the hon. Member for Tewkesbury said. That is why we must protect it and get the balance right.

As Justice Secretary in Scotland, I remember bringing in quite firm legislation on the sale of alcohol. I think it was correctly done. Equally, I remember being criticised at some stage because I gave the licence back to Murrayfield stadium. People asked, “How can you be cracking down on alcohol and yet allow an alcohol licence in Murrayfield?” I answered that we are not against alcohol, in exactly the same way that we are not against gambling; we are about ensuring that it is carried out in a safe and secure manner, that it is regulated, and that people can be protected—sometimes even from themselves. That is why I believe action has to be taken on these social problems. We are our brother’s and our sister’s keeper.

The result on Saturday may not have gone the way most Members here, other than the two of us from Scotland, wanted, but the match will have been enjoyed. It was better that people went to the stadium and had a few drinks consumed safely and under supervision, rather than sitting in a park drinking cans or bottles and then rushing to the game late. That is why, in alcohol legislation in Scotland, when I was Justice Secretary we were always very supportive of the on-trade. We much preferred people to go to a public house where the alcohol industry wants to sell a premium product—at a premium price for them—in a manner that is safe and secure and from which they can benefit. That is much better than people being sold almost unlimited supplies of high-strength, low-price alcohol from supermarkets or elsewhere.

There are corollaries with gambling. What we have to do is stop people losing their shirt, never mind their home, through games of chance or puggy machines—or whatever sophisticated name they have now—sitting in betting shops. People can go online and, as I said, get a credit card and literally see their savings disappear. What we cannot do is undermine where people can go and have a flutter and enjoy themselves as part of a day out.

[Philip Davies]

The hon. Gentleman is making a very interesting speech. May I refer him to the comments made by the hon. Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn)? He made it clear that without the levy income that horseracing generates from online betting, Musselburgh and other racecourses would not exist for having a nice day out and a bet at the ring. The income the horseracing industry gets from online gambling is absolutely critical for horseracing to continue in this country.

[Kenny MacAskill]

I said at the outset that I am conscious that Musselburgh and other racecourses have to get income from the gambling industry. If people now gamble more online as opposed to going to the betting shop, even the one opposite me in Dunbar, that has to be accepted. We have to separate the gambling that is being sold in every shape or form, as it is, and entertainment, because that is what horseracing is. Gambling is a legitimate part of it and sustains it. Obviously, the industry seeks to make more money out of encouraging people to bet and gamble on football; it does not put the same money in, except in terms of shirt advertising or whatever else, and it does not benefit the grassroots game or any club. The Government have to make sure they take the necessary action against gambling, not those who are at the turf in such places.

I fully accept the point made by the hon. Member for Shipley that people now place bets not by going into a betting shop, but on their phone—not even on their computer. However, we should provide protection for what is an industry. It may be an anachronism; one could argue that other sports should get the benefit, but we are where we are, and we have to recognise that as a society. On that basis, we have to differentiate horseracing, which needs to be protected and which we want to encourage people to participate in because their gambling will be supervised, moderated and part of a culture, and other gambling—as I said, it is like drinking in a pub as opposed to drinking in a public park.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kenny MacAskill Excerpts

Thursday 25th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

My hon. Friend has done a fantastic job with the campaign, and has made huge progress towards ensuring that best practice is followed by suppliers. Of course I shall be happy to meet her to see what more can be done.

[Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (Alba)]

T7. Ferguson Marine, the last remaining shipyard on the lower Clyde, is threatened by the way in which its current work is configured. It badly requires an order from CalMac for seven small island ferries. The issue of procurement is one for the Scottish Government and their agencies, but will the Minister ensure that no impediment, no obstacle and no rules that are under her control will prevent the order from being given directly by the Scottish Government to Ferguson Marine if they so wish?

[Ms Ghani]

I am more than happy to sit down with the hon. Member to discuss furthering his case, but the overriding fact, which he mentioned, is that the decision sits with the Scottish Government. In the UK we have the National Shipbuilding Office, which provides a wraparound service not only to secure contracts but to ensure that ships are built in UK shipyards.

Horizon: Compensation and Convictions

Kenny MacAskill Excerpts

Monday 8th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Although it is tragic to hear that anybody has been involved in these kinds of cases, it is good to hear that people are coming forward. Again, one of the added benefits of the dramatisation is that people are more willing to come forward, and we have seen a good number coming forward. I am very happy to make sure that my hon. Friend’s constituents are pointed in the right direction and that they have access to the appropriate scheme to get compensation, because they should be compensated to the degree of both their non-pecuniary losses, for any impacts on, for example, their health or any distress or reputational issues, and of their financial situation, as we return them to the position they were in prior to the episode taking place. We are keen that his constituents get access to those schemes.

[Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (Alba)]

As both a defence agent and as Justice Secretary, I was aware that even a postie who failed to deliver the mail, let alone a sub-postmaster who stole the mail, faced a custodial sentence. That was viewed as correct and I accepted it, because there are occupations where probity is essential and where exemplary sentences are required to be imposed. But this is worse and it is wider. This is a conspiracy to silence. It is a conspiracy by those with reputational, financial and institutional interests to bury the little person and to obtain convictions. They knew convictions were coming. I believe that the integrity of our justice system and indeed of our society requires that nobody is above the rule of law and that, where such actions take place, exemplary sentences are imposed. Will the Minister seek to ensure that?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

That is exactly what we want to do and that is why we set up the statutory inquiry to try to identify culpability and responsibility. Whether that leads to corporate sanctions, in terms of contributions to compensation schemes, or individuals who might face prosecution or other sanctions, that is absolutely right. Of course there will be different agencies looking at different things that the inquiry uncovers as part of its process, including not only crime agencies, but the Honours Forfeiture Committee. We are very keen to ensure that that happens. The hon. Gentleman mentions financial incentives—as Charlie Munger once said, “Show me the incentive and I’ll show you the outcome.” I am sure that played a part in some of the terrible mistreatments of postmasters.

Arms Export Licences: Israel

Kenny MacAskill Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (Alba)]

I endorse everything that the mover, the hon. Member for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana), very eloquently said. Equally, in the limited time left, I want to comment on the issues raised by others around complicity. That can be direct or indirect, and the mover, as I say, very eloquently dealt with the direct. The indirect has obviously been touched upon by the right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). If we are facilitating the supply of weaponry to Israel by the Americans flying out of RAF Akrotiri, that is simply unacceptable and we are complicit. Not only do the Republic of Cyprus Government have a right to know what is happening at a sovereign UK airbase—so do the citizens of the United Kingdom. We need to know that there is no complicity there.

Secondly—I am conscious of time and others coming in—we have, according to a parliamentary question, been giving military aid to Israel, but it has been restricted to medical supplies. Now, that on its own sounds very grand: we have only given medical supplies since 7 October. However, that does not mean vaccinations for children or hip replacements for the elderly. It can only be described as medical aid for combat trauma. The equipment that is itemised in parliamentary answer 5416 is not going into an Israeli sitcom-version of “M*A*S*H”. It is not for something funny. It is being used by Israeli soldiers who are killed or injured in the Gaza strip.

I wish no one ill—not an Israeli soldier, nor indeed a Palestinian civilian—but we should not be supplying equipment that can only be described as for combat. That, by the broadest sense of the imagination, cannot be described as humanitarian aid. It is aid to the Israeli military; it is aid to comfort their soldiers. They require comfort, but they should not be doing this and we should not be supplying it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kenny MacAskill Excerpts

Thursday 14th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ghani]

Members choose which numbers they want to throw out, but those do not necessarily reflect reality. I thought it was fantastic that we are now the eighth largest manufacturer in the world; I believe that we leap-frogged France—leap-frogging the French is always good to get on the record.

Actually, exports are most definitely up. In the 12 months to June 2023, UK exports rose by £139 billion, an increase of 8% once adjusted for inflation. In the same period, goods exports reached £428 billion, an 11% increase when adjusted for inflation. Perhaps we should reflect on the opportunities for all the businesses in our constituencies.

[Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (Alba)]

7. What recent discussions she has had with (a) NGOs and (b) charities on the inclusion of human rights considerations in trade negotiations.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Kevin Hollinrake)]

The Government are committed to universal human rights, the rule of law, free speech and fairness. Those values guide all aspects of our international policy, including our approach to trade.

[Kenny MacAskill]

As trade talks continue with many countries that have deplorable human rights records and as discussions continue with India, will the Minister ensure that we receive binding commitments on human rights—particularly in relation to labour practices—rather than simply warm words, and that discussions continue with NGOs, which are well placed, and often better placed than the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, on what is going on?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. The UK will continue to show global leadership in encouraging all states to uphold international human rights obligations and to hold those who violate or abuse human rights to account. The UK has successfully included labour, environment and gender provisions in the free trade agreements that we have signed—with Australia and New Zealand, for example. Those both contained dedicated chapters on trade, gender equality, labour and the environment. They uphold human rights but, crucially, also level the playing field for our UK businesses.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kenny MacAskill Excerpts

Wednesday 8th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Obviously it is in our national interest to have effective extradition relationships. Under the treaty we have with the US, we have secured the extradition and subsequent conviction of terrorists, murderers, rapists and child sex offenders. I am happy to meet my right hon. Friend to discuss this issue further. As he knows, the US has refused, I think, one UK extradition request and the UK has refused 27, but I know that he has concerns and I would be happy to meet him to discuss this matter further.

[Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (Alba)]

Q3. There is a stark correlation between areas off the gas grid and those with the highest rates of fuel poverty. It is worse in Scotland, ironically in those areas closest to the national gas reserves in the North sea, but also in urban deprived areas where multi-storey flats are deprived of the ability to have natural gas. Being off the gas grid means that people are dependent on unregulated fuels such as heating oil, the price of which has risen faster than electricity and gas, or on old, inefficient and costly all-electric systems. Will the Prime Minister end this by ensuring that all fuels are regulated and that those all-electric households are able to get the alternative fuels payment?

[The Prime Minister]

As someone who represents a rural constituency with many people off the gas grid, I appreciate the concern that the hon. Gentleman raises. That is why this has always been uppermost in the Government’s mind as we have designed and implemented our support for people with energy bills, notably by basing it on electricity meters rather than gas, but also by putting in place the alternative fuels support payment of £200. We are making sure that that gets to everyone who needs it.