Fireworks: Public Sales

Kelly Tolhurst Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2018 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kelly Tolhurst)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) not only for introducing the debate on behalf of the Petitions Committee but for her thoughtful and informative speech. I also thank all hon. Members who have taken part in today’s debate. It is great to see such a highly subscribed Westminster Hall debate. I am also grateful to those who signed the e-petition that has brought us here today.

As has been discussed, a very similar debate took place in January, following a petition that also sought to

“Change the laws governing the use of fireworks to include a ban on public use”.

That debate took place because 113,000 people signed that petition. Today, we are debating a petition that has received over 280,000 signatures. Again, it calls for a ban on the sale of fireworks to the public and for displays at licensed venues only. I am also aware that there are campaigns under way regarding the use of fireworks, such as the one organised by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, and a further petition, under the change.org banner, has received over 330,000 signatures. The issues have been debated thoroughly, both today and in January.

Let me also offer my thanks to the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss), who had a debate on this issue scheduled for tomorrow but who, because of today’s debate, has decided to combine it with this one. I thank her for forfeiting her debate.

I empathise with the concerns that have been raised, and the Government understand the strong feelings that many people have about fireworks. For those reasons, I do not want to simply restate what the law is, although I will do so briefly for the benefit of hon. Members. We have legislation in place to regulate the supply, storage, possession, use and misuse of fireworks, to help to ensure public safety. These powers include powers to prosecute those who use fireworks in a dangerous or antisocial manner. Together, the restrictions set out in the Fireworks Act 2003, the Fireworks Regulations 2004 and the Pyrotechnic Articles (Safety) Regulations 2015 provide the regulatory framework that seeks to support the public’s enjoyment of fireworks while effectively managing the risk of fireworks harming individuals, property or animals.

Retailers may sell fireworks without the need for a specific licence during short windows of time around the traditional fireworks periods of 5 November, new year’s eve, Diwali and Chinese new year. However, if they wish to sell fireworks at other times of the year, they must seek a licence from their local authority. Age restrictions are in place to prevent the sale of fireworks to those under the age of 16 or 18, depending on the classification of the firework. There are further restrictions on the public possession of most fireworks by those under 18. Local authority trading standards officers have the powers to take action against those who sell fireworks illegally, including those selling fireworks without an appropriate licence, outside the normal selling period or to under-age children. Those powers also cover the sale of illegally imported fireworks and internet sales.

I recognise that the noise from fireworks can be distressing to some people and animals, and many Members today have shared their experiences and the concerns of their constituents. That is why there is a noise limit of 120 dB on fireworks available for consumer use. Consumers can also choose to buy from the wide range of low-noise or silent fireworks that are now available, as some hon. Members have highlighted.

I want to reassure hon. Members that the Government continue to take the enforcement of firework safety seriously. Trading standards can order the removal of unsafe products from the market and can take action against retailers who flout the law by selling fireworks to under-age children or who fail to abide by the licensing rules. The police do take action to combat antisocial behaviour and the dangerous use of fireworks by individuals, and many hon. Members today have described the illegal sale and use of fireworks. The hon. Members for Glasgow Central and for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) described serious criminal activity involving fireworks that has happened within their constituencies. Quite frankly, they outlined some disgusting behaviour by individuals in their use of fireworks. Such incidents are investigated by the police, leading to fines and in some cases imprisonment, so although I recognise hon. Members’ concerns, I do not accept the premise that the police do not investigate what I would call criminal activity.

[Helen Jones]

Can the Minister tell us whether her Department now collects statistics on the number of prosecutions for fireworks offences? If it does, what is the trend? Are prosecutions going up or down?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Lady for making that point. As some hon. Members have already outlined, when the last debate on this subject took place in January, we were just setting up the Office for Product Safety and Standards. We talked then about the collection of data, and my Department is working with National Trading Standards to consider ways to collect data to back up any proposed changes.

To recap, criminal events in which people use fireworks are investigated by police, if they are reported. In some cases, they attract fines and, in others, imprisonment.

[Mr Bailey]

I do not think that anyone would say that the police do not investigate. We are saying that the level of resources is such that they are not often able to carry out the sort of investigation that enables them to identify the perpetrators and bring them to justice. Can the Minister give me an indication of just how many investigations have taken place, how many fixed penalty notices have been given and how many perpetrators of serious firework-related crime have been prosecuted?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I would like to refer to the hon. Gentleman’s comment and also to his earlier remark about an incident in which a firework was thrown into a pub. He suggested that it was not investigated—

[Helen Jones]

He did not say that.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

Perhaps I misunderstood, but that is what I heard from this end. My suggestion is that the police do take such matters seriously, in any constituency. Regarding any criminal activity that is identified as serious, the police absolutely attend.

[Patricia Gibson]

If I heard the Minister correctly, she suggested—if she did not say—that the work of the Office for Product Safety and Standards is ongoing. I think that is what she said—what I understood. If the office is not yet in a position to tell us how it will proceed on fireworks, with all the concerns around them, do we have a timeframe for when it might bring forward its own conclusions or proposals about how we move forward?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I will move on to that reference later in my speech, and to how potentially I, as the Minister responsible, and in line with the Office for Product Safety and Standards, would like to take the matter forward. If the hon. Lady would bear with me, that would be great.

The hon. Member for Glasgow Central suggested that it was not possible to seize fireworks in some cases. I would like to reassure her that fireworks can be seized under the Consumer Protection Act 1987 and the Explosives Act 1875. Just to give her an example, Greater Manchester seized 50 kg of bangers last year and 36 kg of category 4 fireworks, and Worcestershire seized fireworks from two different premises.

[Alison Thewliss]

I am not aware of the circumstances that the Minister mentions. Were those fireworks seized from commercial or residential premises? On bonfire night, Police Scotland deployed public order specialists in Pollokshields. They arrested people, and they are still arresting people and investigating. The problem is not the police’s response but the source of the fireworks.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kelly Tolhurst]

To answer the hon. Lady’s direct question, I have the data regarding the volumes as opposed to how many premises or individuals—[Interruption.] The volumes that I said, the 50 kg of—[Interruption.]

[Mr George Howarth (in the Chair)]

Order. I do not think we can have mumbling from a sedentary position.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I said that the information I have is in regards to the volume and not to how that volume is made up.

Although only a minority of users of fireworks misuse them, I understand that one individual can have a massive impact on a community. That is why the Government continue to believe that the best way to continue to reduce any distress caused by fireworks is to work with industry, retailers and others to promote their safe and responsible use through guidance and public education and to ensure that appropriate action is taken against those who break the rules.

At the previous debate in January, the then Minister with responsibility for fireworks had just announced the creation of the new Office for Product Safety and Standards, and I am delighted that the office is already working with industry, retailers, charities and others, including the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents and Netmums, to promote the safe and responsible use of fireworks and raise consumer awareness of firework safety. The campaign that the office has undertaken, with its partners, has reached more than a million people through social media, GP surgeries and post offices. The office has also been providing access to expert advice to support trading standards work in enforcing the regulations, including through the funding of the testing of potentially unsafe fireworks.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

Has there been any investigation of the issue of inspections by trading standards, as opposed to by the Health and Safety Executive? Two people lost their lives in a firework explosion in my constituency a few years ago, and it was implied that although trading standards are allowed to inspect places where up to 2 tonnes of fireworks are kept, they did not have enough expertise to deal with an amount of explosive that was greater than that which Guy Fawkes used in these Houses of Parliament. Would it not be better for the Health and Safety Executive to come in at a much lower level than 2 tonnes, which I believe is the law at the moment?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting his constituency concern. As he outlined, local trading standards and local authorities license the storage of fireworks, but the Health and Safety Executive ultimately has responsibility for the health and safety of all premises—the overriding health and safety regulations—whether it be for work or storage. Since I have been in post as Minister, I have not had any representations made to me on the storage of fireworks; they have been more about their use. From my personal experience, I can say that if there are operations within individuals’ constituencies, or even if the general public have any concerns about where fireworks are being stored, they are absolutely to contact the local authority and trading standards, but I suggest that they also contact the Health and Safety Executive, which has the responsibility for carrying out investigative work when complaints have been made.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

If I may just follow up on that, in metropolitan areas the fire and rescue authorities usually have responsibility for the inspection of storage and they have real experience in that area. Would it not be better to ensure that not just in metropolitan areas but in county authorities a similar regime was put in place under the overall provision of the HSE, but involving fire and rescue authorities right from fairly low levels of firework storage?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank my hon. Friend for his suggestion. I know that local forces work well with local authorities and other agencies on how best to implement regulation, control local problems and carry out enforcement. My hon. Friend makes a very good point and it is something we would have to discuss with those agencies and the local authorities involved.

During the debate in January, the then Minister agreed to meet with hon. Members who had an interest in the matter and discuss their concerns. As I said in response to a Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy question last week, I am open to hearing more and to receiving information and evidence on firework safety issues. This debate has certainly provided much information for further consideration.

[Patricia Gibson]

The Minister is being extremely generous with her time. I just want to ask her the question that I think everyone in this room wants to ask, and probably every member of the public who has an interest in the issue. Is she minded to have a consultation? I hear what she says about what has been going on, but is she minded to proceed down the path of a consultation on the sale of fireworks? I think that is what a lot of people want to know.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I hope to have a meeting, which I think may also have been offered by my predecessor, with hon. Members who are interested. That will be an opportunity for them to discuss this issue with me, because what has come out today is that there is no consensus. There are different elements, and a number of issues and different opinions have been discussed. That is absolutely fine—that is what a debate is about—but it is not something that we could run with. As the Minister responsible, I would like to come up with a suggested way forward, looking at things in a more organised way. That is why I suggest a face-to-face meeting with hon. Members to discuss their concerns and suggest how we might take this matter forward.

Following the January debate, officials were tasked with reviewing the guidance. In order to ensure that all views are taken into account, I have asked those officials to connect constructively with key stakeholders during the next steps, addressing any awareness or information gaps. The creation of the Office for Product Safety and Standards has given us the opportunity to make the best use of scientific evidence, incident data, risk and intelligence in our decision making. As a result, we are now in a much better position to ensure we have the right evidence-based approach to firework safety, and to commission new evidence where necessary. That will ensure we have a thorough understanding of the issues with the safe sale and use of fireworks.

I will respond to a couple of questions. The hon. Members for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Gill Furniss) and for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) have asked about the consultation on fireworks, and I will happily meet Members to discuss a way forward. As I have already outlined, the Office for Product Safety and Standards is gathering data and looking at ways in which we can acquire the thorough evidence that we will need to back up anything we introduce. As for enforcement, I am personally committed to making sure that we enforce the law in this country, as the hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough knows and as I highlighted last week.

We are also committed to consumer protection. I made my interest in that area expressly clear in two different debates last week, as well as my interest in the data and the work that we are doing. The Office for Product Safety and Standards and the Department are using data scientifically to make better decisions on consumer protection and safety.

[Gill Furniss]

It is really generous of the Minister to offer to meet those of us who have taken part in the debate. However, as I said earlier, it is 13 years since the last regulations were instated, so does she agree that a complete review of the situation is now timely? Things have changed since then. We have heard about the fireworks that sound like bombs, the high decibel levels, and the different lengths of time that things take, so it would be nice if the Minister could confirm that when she meets us, it will be with a view to reviewing the entire situation surrounding fireworks.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Lady for her thanks for my suggestion that we should have a meeting. However, as I say, I have been in this role since July, and before I commit to anything, I need to be confident of what we would achieve and how we would achieve it. I am sad to say that I will not use today as an opportunity to confirm what the hon. Lady has asked for, but I have open ears and an open mind on what hon. Members might want to highlight.

[Susan Elan Jones]

If I were to attend the meeting with the Minister, I would say to her that for me, the most important item is restricting to certain dates the use of fireworks outside of organised displays. I think that every Member would have a different view on that, but the reason I am going to push the Minister a bit further about a public consultation is that the more views we have, the more informed the Government will be.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Lady for her comments, but as I have highlighted, I will not commit to a consultation until I have met hon. Members, spoken with my officials, and worked out with them what the best way forward is. I will be quite frank: I am not for moving on that today. However, as I have highlighted, I have open ears and an open mind, and it is obvious from today’s debate that there is a range of differing views.

To highlight two elements of the debate, I support hon. Members on the question of the problems they have raised, and to pay tribute to our emergency services. We have heard about how our emergency services have been targeted, with people using fireworks in a criminal way against those charged with protecting us. Like anyone listening to the debate and to the stories that hon. Members have recounted, I think it is disgusting that anyone working in the emergency services might be threatened with fireworks, even on a firework night. That is totally disgusting, and I share hon. Members’ concerns about that.

I will also highlight hon. Members’ concerns about animal welfare. We have heard personal stories about hon. Members’ pets and the disastrous things that have happened to horses, and I can recount stories from years ago. I was pleased to hear that the hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) did not have a story about a hamster, and it was nice to hear about her father and his desire to have fireworks in their yard. My father would not, because the Catherine wheels that were available in the 1970s, when I was small, were dangerous: half of them did not finish or go off. Product safety has moved on significantly in the past 30 years, and although we are still targeting people who use fireworks incorrectly, the products have improved vastly. We recognise people’s concerns about their pets and animals, but it is a difficult debate.

We have heard that we should move people to public displays, rather than their having fireworks in their garden. However, we have heard complaints about public displays as well as informal ones, so the question of what people want is complex. There are many differing opinions, and we will have to make judgments about how far we need to go and what the right balance is. Legislation and enforcement always involves a balance: ensuring both that people’s rights are protected and consumers are safe, and that people are able to enjoy the things that I am sure everyone loves about fireworks.

[Alison Thewliss]

If the Scottish Government’s consultation comes back next year in favour of greater restrictions on sale, will the Minister devolve the powers to the Scottish Parliament?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I am afraid that I cannot commit to that today, because I do not know what the Scottish Government’s review will say. If I am still in post, I will happily look at it at that time.

I thank everyone who has taken part in the debate. I reassure the Chamber that I am clear that the safety of our constituents remains a priority, and I will consider the work of my officials and look at the evidence base. I encourage everyone present who is interested and has contributed to the debate to meet me for a proper discussion, which will enable the Government to look at the problem and decide on the correct way forward. I also thank you, Mr Howarth, for your patience this afternoon.

[Helen Jones]

I take this opportunity to thank all Members who have participated in the debate and made some very useful contributions to it. I would like to be able to thank the Minister, but in 21 years I have seldom heard a response that took so little cognisance of the debate that had just happened.

We have now had three e-petition debates on the issue, yet the Government have taken no account of the public views that have been expressed time and time again. I remind them that the petitions system was set up as a joint system between Parliament and Government in the expectation that Government would take it seriously, and they clearly are not. The Minister has talked about enforcement, but she will not commit more resources to it.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Helen Jones]

One moment. The Minister has said—[Interruption.] No, I am not giving way; I have not finished my sentence. She has said she believes that she needs to collect more data and that there has been no unanimity in this debate. This debate was unanimous about wanting more controls on fireworks. She said that she is sorry for our emergency services, but she has put forward no way—

[Kelly Tolhurst]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Helen Jones]

I only have two minutes, so I am not giving way. Clear?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

Two minutes? You have 10.

[Helen Jones]

I have two minutes to wind up. The Minister has said that she wants to protect our emergency services, but she has come up with no way of doing that. She has said, “We want to work with the industry.” I wonder whether that will be as successful as the Government’s obesity strategy has been in working with the industry concerned.

My constituents and other Members’ constituents are clear that they want action. I know the Minister is a junior Minister and is unable to promise much herself, but the Home Office has to start taking this matter seriously or we will be here debating it time and time again until it does. My Committee will certainly want to look at it again. These are serious issues about people being injured, emergency workers being attacked and people’s lives being made a misery. It is time that the Government started to take it seriously.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered e-petition 231147 relating to the sale of fireworks to the public.