Scamming: Vulnerable Individuals

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Sarah Newton]

As always, the Chairman of the Health Committee makes a powerful point, and I am sure those responsible for drafting these measures will take them into careful consideration, ensuring that the scope of the measures captures some of the very harmful behaviour of scammers and fraudsters and that there is sufficient deterrent to those considering undertaking these crimes from the regime of punishments put in place, including fines.

The overall aims of the new code of practice will be to support a reduction in the number of unwanted direct marketing calls and to make it easier for the Information Commissioner to take action against organisations in breach of the direct marketing rules.

Secondly, the Government-funded national trading standards scams team is working with the British Bankers Association, the Building Society Association and others to produce a new national banking protocol for doorstep crime and other scam issues discovered at branch level. The Financial Conduct Authority is building on this. Its ageing population strategy will consider how older consumers engage in financial services and make best use of the products and services they use. The FCA intends to release a regulatory strategy and recommendations by 2017.

[Justin Tomlinson]

My hon. Friend mentions trading standards services, and may I ask her to praise the work of both Poole and Dorset trading standards, which do such a good job in this area? However, they can only do their work if the victims come forward; that is the only way in which successful prosecutions can be secured. So I invite her to continue her work with trading standards and to highlight the important work they do to ensure we get prosecutions.

[Sarah Newton]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. My own trading standards team in Cornwall, like that in Poole, does an excellent job. In addition to the vital work they do in all our communities, they are supported by national bodies—one for Scotland and one for England and Wales. A lot of this activity is related to organised and serious crime, and these national bodies do make sums of money available for support where we are seeing particular instances of scamming in communities. That national and local working is a very good model.

Following scandals in 2015 that highlighted unacceptable charitable fundraising practices, a new Fundraising Regulator has been established. Chaired by Lord Grade of Yarmouth, this independent regulator is tasked to set high standards of fundraising practice and to deal with public complaints when those standards have been breached. It has a range of sanctions and can refer serious non-compliance or abuse to the relevant statutory regulator.

The scams team has also been working in partnership with Royal Mail and other postal operators, training over 2,000 postmen and women to spot scam letters. Already over 700 vulnerable households have been identified and are getting support. Even more importantly, contracts to carry the mail are being cancelled, stopping the letters from getting to their intended victims in the first place.

Enforcement is important in tackling this crime. That is why the Home Office launched a joint fraud taskforce in February this year. The taskforce includes, among others, the City of London police, the National Crime Agency, Financial Fraud Action UK, the Bank of England, National Trading Standards, CIFAS, as the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran mentioned, and Age UK. The taskforce is a good example of the approach we are taking to crime prevention. This is very much the focus of the modern crime prevention strategy the Government published in March this year. Its key themes are about working together to understand the drivers of crimes—why and how they are committed—and then working together to try to stay one step ahead of the criminals to prevent more crimes from happening in the future. The work of the taskforce oversight board is an excellent example of such collaboration, bringing government, law enforcement and industry together in a focused way to develop a clearer and common understanding about the changing nature of fraud and how we can all take action against it.

In its first few months the taskforce has demonstrated that it works. Improved data sharing has led banks to close hundreds of accounts linked to fraud; bank branches in London, alongside the Met and trading standards, are introducing a new fraud intervention, and prolific fraudsters have been arrested since the launch of a new campaign in July.

I can assure hon. Members that the Government regard tackling scamming as a priority, and we will continue to work with national and local partners to address the issues raised today and to do everything we can to prevent the horrendous consequences of the scams we have heard about and to enable more of the good work we have seen.

I want to highlight one extremely good example I came across from Trading Standards Scotland. It funded and co-ordinated a project to install over 200 call-blocking devices in vulnerable consumers’ homes. These devices block 95% of nuisance calls. The impact of preventing scammers from reaching vulnerable and elderly people should not be underestimated. Trading Standards Scotland estimates the resulting saving to individuals and the public purse is between £3,000 and £7,000 per call-blocker.

But really what we are here to do today is to think about the effect on people, and I would like to read a quote from one of the beneficiaries of the scheme that illustrates the true human value. She says:

“I have got my life back. I am nearly 70 and I think how did I let people get me like this? My son is ill and cannot protect me. I have had to get police protection in the past for nuisance calls. Now I can protect myself—it is marvellous. I feel in control. We can sit and have a cup of tea without being disturbed. The dog is even less stressed.”

In conclusion, I repeat my thanks to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran and my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull for securing this important debate. I will be listening intently to the contributions of all Members today, and I can assure them of our utter determination to tackle this dreadful criminal activity.

Oral Answers to Questions

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Monday 23rd March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

The right hon. Gentleman’s question is the third that I am answering from Labour Members. In response to the first two, I said clearly that the Government have not met their net migration target. I am not trying to claim that we have; I am very clear about the fact that we have not met our net migration target, but this Government have recognised the significance of immigration as an issue, and the impact that it has on public services and wages at the lower end of the income scale, and it is this Government who are doing something about it.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

2. What assessment she has made of the risks to the UK from gaps in communications data capability.

[The Minister for Security and Immigration (James Brokenshire)]

Our law enforcement and intelligence agencies continue to face a decline in their ability to obtain the communications data they need. This is caused by the use of modern technology and changes in the way in which people communicate. We believe that further changes to the law are needed to maintain capabilities. We cannot let cyberspace become a haven for terrorists and criminals.

[Justin Tomlinson]

Can my hon. Friend assure me that the next Conservative Government will introduce the appropriate legislation to restore our declining communications data capability?

[James Brokenshire]

It is very clear that although this Government have taken some steps to close the gap, significant gaps remain. The Joint Committee on the draft Communications Data Bill identified that, but we have not been able to bring those measures through in this Parliament. We need to remedy that. Given that about 95% of serious crime cases involve the use of communications data, those measures are an essential tool in fighting crime, and we are determined to take further action to close the gap and make sure that our police and security agencies have the powers they need.

Child Sexual Abuse (Independent Panel Inquiry)

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Wednesday 4th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

My hon. Friend raises another important issue about how we deal with incidents currently taking place. I have been considering this matter along with a number of my right hon. Friends, including my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. We have focused particularly on looking at what we can do in response to the Alexis Jay report on Rotherham, and my right hon. Friend is of course about to make his own statement on the Louise Casey inspection. The Government will come forward with a number of proposals that will hit at the very issues my hon. Friend has raised. He is right that we need to look at issues around training and co-ordination in respect of bodies looking at incidents, or potential incidents, of child sexual abuse today.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I very much welcome this measured statement. Will the Home Secretary confirm that there will be absolutely no hiding place—regardless of time, status or influence—for those involved in these abhorrent acts?

[Mrs May]

I am very clear that this inquiry should go where the evidence takes it and that there should be no hiding place for anybody. We should be very clear that the aim of this inquiry is to get to the truth—to find out what happened, but crucially also to learn the lessons to make sure that this cannot happen again.

Domestic Violence

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Wednesday 29th October 2014 Westminster Hall

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr McCrea. I was not intending to speak, but I was very impressed by the thoughtful, sensible and incredibly important contribution of the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson).

I have had the pleasure of working with Women’s Aid on domestic violence. The point that domestic violence is out of sight and therefore out of mind was what struck me so strongly. In Swindon, between April 2012 and March 2013, there were 2,459 confirmed cases of domestic violence, but that is believed to be only 20% of the total, so the figures are just scratching the surface.

I visited Swindon’s women’s refuge with my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General. Olwen Kelly and her team do a fantastic job. It is only on meeting and talking to victims that we can even start truly to understand the challenges and difficulties they face—the living nightmare that they, their families and their loved ones will go through.

It is always a challenge to secure sufficient funding for refuges, a point that the hon. Member for Upper Bann rightly highlighted. One of the biggest challenges is that, by their nature, refuges cannot showcase their fantastic work because they have to be hidden away in local communities. If all people could see that work, there would be a groundswell of support. I also pay tribute to Layla Allen and her team at the victim support unit at our local courts. They provide support and assistance for those who are brave enough to go through the legal challenges to bring those responsible to task.

Having met representatives of Women’s Aid, I said I wanted to play a small part and see how I could help to highlight domestic violence and deal with the fact that it is out of sight and out of mind. I was proud to help launch the “Football United Against Domestic Violence” campaign in Parliament. The Minister kindly came along and showed complete support for that initiative. At the launch were Polly Neate, the chief executive of Women’s Aid, and its ambassadors, Charlie Webster—she carried out her own fundraising, and reached her £100,000 target, by running 250 miles between the grounds of 40 football clubs—and Jahmene Douglas. Women’s Aid is using the medium of football to highlight domestic violence to a predominantly male audience. It managed—those who understand sport will know how incredibly difficult this is—to unite the Premier League, BT Sport and the Football Association. We had a truly united front to highlight this important issue, and there was fantastic cross-party support.

Collectively, we must do all we can to champion the work done—it is predominantly done by volunteers in our community—to highlight domestic violence. I simply wanted to make a short contribution to support this important debate.

Oral Answers to Questions

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

The Home Office already takes steps to ensure that when a new substance appears that could be injurious to health, we seek to ban analogous drugs—the family of drugs—as a consequence. Some of the banned drugs have often not yet been created, but if and when they are created, they are already covered. We are trying to deal with this through anticipatory methods as well as by other means. We also try to have an early response system, so that when a substance appears, it can be picked up and banned very quickly.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

10. What steps she is taking to address domestic violence.

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)]

Domestic violence is a dreadful form of abuse and is totally unacceptable. Our approach to tackling it is set out in the Government’s updated violence against women and girls action plan. Key initiatives include piloting domestic violence protection orders, which I referred to in a previous answer, and a domestic violence disclosure scheme. We have also extended the definition of domestic violence to include 16 and 17-year-olds and to include the use of coercive control.

[Justin Tomlinson]

I have visited the women’s refuge in Swindon and was extremely impressed by the help and facilities that it provides. What steps is the Home Secretary taking to support the work of those vital safe havens for victims of domestic violence across the country?

[Mrs May]

Like my hon. Friend, I pay tribute to all those who work in refuges and provide refuge for the victims of domestic violence. They are predominantly for women, as the majority of such victims are women, but we must never forget that men can also be the victims of domestic violence, as my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) said earlier. The Government are providing stable funding of £40 million to support specialist domestic and sexual violence services, such as the independent domestic violence advisers who offer further valuable support to victims.

Alcohol Strategy Consultation

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Browne]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. This does impact on organised crime. Responsibility for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs lies with the Treasury, rather than the Home Office, and it is clearly keen to take ongoing measures to prevent public harms and to increase the revenue to Government. Duty plus VAT is a perfectly reasonable competition measure that the Government are introducing. It is an uncompetitive practice for supermarkets or others to sell alcohol below the level of tax that they have to pay on that alcohol. Anybody who has a free-market perspective and does not want smaller retailers to be unfairly disadvantaged will see that as another reason to support this measure.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I speak as someone with a relative who continually battles with being an alcoholic. The vast majority of people who drink do so responsibly. Therefore, rather than hiking the price, why not place an appropriate levy on the industry to guarantee suitable help and support for those in need?

[Mr Browne]

I am sorry to hear about my hon. Friend’s relative; I think he has raised that personal case before in deliberations of this type. The industry is taking actions that I have sought to outline in some detail during our deliberations. The problem that confronts all Governments, or anybody who has to make a political decision, is how much they restrict the liberties of the majority to protect the minority from inflicting harm on themselves. There is a balance to be struck. The majority of people who responded to our consultation did not want the individual choices of the majority of responsible drinkers to be unfairly penalised because some people use alcohol irresponsibly.

Royal Assent

Alcohol: Minimum Unit Price

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. These exchanges are still very highly charged, but the Minister is entitled to be heard and must not be shouted down.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

A member of my family is an alcoholic. Minimum unit pricing would not make one jot of difference, because 50p here or there would not break her addiction. Greater resources and co-ordination of support services are the priority; it is there that the industry and Government should be leading.

[Mr Browne]

I am very sorry to hear what my hon. Friend says. I think that it is important, amid all the party political knockabout, that we realise and respect the fact that this is a very serious issue for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people across the country, and they want politicians to address it properly and with consideration. With regard to price sensitivity, there is good reason to believe that different people in different circumstances are more price responsive than others, which is why this is a harder issue to tackle than it might appear after cursory inspection. I accept his point that people who have become accustomed to drinking large quantities of alcohol as a matter of course might be less price sensitive than, for example, younger people who are looking to drink alcohol to excess for the first time. Of course, we need to take a range of different measures into account when trying to help people in those circumstances.

Policing Costs (Football Matches)

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Wednesday 18th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con)]

I am delighted to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Crausby. I am particularly grateful to Mr Speaker for granting me this debate on contribution to the costs of policing football matches by premiership clubs. It is my first Westminster Hall debate, as it was that of the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), who secured the previous debate.

To set the parameters of the debate, my proposals this afternoon only relate to premiership football clubs. Policing costs are associated with other sporting events, including lower league football matches. However, premiership football matches require a uniquely heavy police presence, because of the number of fans involved and the rivalries. The policing requirements of Wimbledon, the Ashes at Lord’s or even an international rugby match at Twickenham are much lower compared with those of premiership football. In general, sports spectators are not violent or confrontational, and other sports do not have the same problems as football and hence do not need to separate fans or have strict alcohol laws.

Premiership games require a huge police presence, and I am challenging the idea that the taxpayer should pay for the adverse effects of one party on another. My contention is not that all sporting fixtures should pay for the costs of policing their matches, because at the poorer end of the scale that could wipe out the profit made on a small-scale fixture. However, with the average salary of a premiership footballer now estimated at £55,000 a week, and with some earning as much as four times that amount, or a salary of more than £10 million a year, the affordability of premiership football clubs paying the full costs of policing their highly profitable businesses cannot be questioned in any way. My simple contention is that the total police costs attributable to the policing of a premiership football match should be met by the clubs and not by the taxpayer.

To give some background, the provision of policing at a football match, or at any other commercial event such as a music concert, is a special police service. Special police services are governed by section 25 of the Police Act 1996:

“The chief officer of police of a police force may provide, at the request of any person, special police services at any premises or in any locality in the police area for which the force is maintained, subject to the payment to the police authority of charges on such scales as may be determined by that authority.”

In effect, special police services are extra that police officers provide for security at commercial events. The event organiser must pay for the service at a price determined by the chief constable. If the cost is not met, the organiser can be denied a safety certificate and therefore cannot hold the event.

In 2008, the Association of Chief Police Officers made a submission to the Home Office about the Green Paper on the future of policing, calling for the introduction of full-cost policing. Full-cost policing would extend the definition of special police services beyond the so-called footprint of the event to include consequential policing: policing that is provided beyond the event itself, at train stations or town centres, to deal with crowds arriving at and leaving a commercial event. How is that ACPO submission currently viewed in the Home Office? How would a similar submission by ACPO today—for recovery of full-cost policing from football clubs—be regarded by Home Office Ministers?

Under current arrangements, football clubs are only legally obliged to pay for the policing in their footprint, which usually means inside the stadium and the surrounding car parks. However, the provision of consequential policing outside a football match—for example, at the nearest railway or tube station, in nearby pubs and bars or even in the city centre—is currently the responsibility of the police and is provided at their discretion and their cost. Clubs do not have to pay for that extra service, so the cost is paid for by the taxpayer. That has led to a disparity between what the police estimate the total cost of policing a football match to be, and what the clubs currently pay. In the 2007-08 season, it was estimated that the policing of 13 premier league football clubs cost the police £3.2 million in consequential policing. That difference was met by the taxpayer.

The disparity is the result of current case law—in particular, the case of the chief constable of Greater Manchester v. Wigan Athletic—but also of Home Office guidance on charging for the policing of football matches. The result, according to a report of the Select Committee on Home Affairs on this issue in July 2009, is that

“some forces recovered less than half, some as much as two thirds of the costs of policing football”.

The current disparity, therefore, is between what the clubs are legally obliged to pay in policing costs and what the police actually estimate those costs to be, and it stems from grey areas in the current legislation and Home Office guidance. Can the Minister address that issue in his response, and ask his officials to look into clarifying such an important area?

What are the actual costs? Sunita Patel, the London correspondent for the Wolverhampton Express & Star, has recently submitted freedom of information requests to the West Midlands police on the issue. Her story, published yesterday, revealed some interesting results. Data obtained from the West Midlands police show that the force estimated costs of £1.14 million to police Aston Villa and West Bromwich Albion’s home fixtures in 2008-09. However, the force was only reimbursed £875,655, leaving a shortfall of £266,111. That quarter of a million pounds alone would pay for 10 police constables or seven sergeants. In essence, the police are recovering only three quarters of the costs of policing Villa and West Brom.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the biggest challenge is the lack of transparency—that a freedom of information request had to be submitted? Coupled with that, if he was granted his wish and football clubs in effect had to pay for their own policing, surely they should also have a greater say in how that policing is carried out.

[Mr Burley]

That is a fair point. One of the challenges to such arguments is that defining the cost of consequential policing is difficult. Is a fight in a bar at midnight between two guys wearing football shirts, a long time after the match, the responsibility of Villa and West Brom or of the police only? However, my argument, and what we found in the FOI figures, is that the police calculate such costs quite accurately. They know the costs for policing in the ground—the footprint—and outside, because we have obtained those figures under the FOI requests. A simple test would be to ask a police force what its extra deployment would be if there were a home match on a Saturday. The police would tell us straight away: they would have an extra 10 coppers at the station, a sergeant to oversee, and everything else. Those officers would not otherwise be deployed, so it is quite easy to calculate the extra costs.

Further figures obtained by Miss Patel for the most recent season, 2009-10, showed that West Midlands police recovered £1.23 million for policing the home games of Wolves, Aston Villa and Birmingham City. That is an increase of 40% on the previous season because of an extra west midlands club being in the top flight—I accept that that might change by the end of the week if Wolves or Birmingham go down. If the policing costs outside the football club premises went up by the same ratio, the taxpayer bill for the 2009-10 season would be an estimated £372,555. Extrapolated across the country and the 20 premiership clubs, that would equate to £2.5 million, which is equivalent to 106 police constables or 68 sergeants—at which point, such figures start to appear rather significant.

ACPO itself, in a BBC news article in October last year, estimated that it costs the police up to £25 million to deal with all football matches, but that they only recover £12 million to £15 million a year from the clubs. That is for all football matches, whereas my proposal is for premiership clubs only. Hammersmith and Fulham council estimates that the total cost of policing football matches in its borough, which, uniquely, has three premiership clubs, will be £5.69 million a season. Either way, the cost of policing football matches ranges from £2.5 million to £5.6 million to £15 million, depending on how many clubs and matches are included, and according to the different estimates by different forces of policing their local games. However, one thing from all those figures is abundantly clear. The taxpayer is subsidising wealthy football clubs to the tune of millions of pounds a year, and my simple question to the Minister is: why?

There is an issue and a principle. The issue is the disparity between what the clubs are legally obliged to pay in policing costs, and what the police estimate those costs to be. The principle is that the polluter pays. On the taxpayer subsidy provided to clubs through extra paid-for policing, my personal feeling is that the estimated consequential costs are far higher than freedom of information figures from the west midlands suggest. Let us consider three recent examples.

At the derby match involving Arsenal and Spurs on 31 October last year, a large group of hooligans smashed up several pubs after their side’s 3-0 defeat, causing thousands of pounds of damage. Because of the nature of the derby rivalry at the previous year’s game, the police classified it as high risk, and almost tripled the number of officers on duty from 180 to 560. In the north- east alone this year, British Transport police has already overspent its football budget by around £400,000. In April, a dozen arrests were made after a town centre pub was forced to close when Wigan Athletic, Sheffield United, Barnsley and Manchester United fans turned violent, and the police again had to call in hundreds of extra patrols to deal with the disturbance.

Trafficking in Human Beings

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Monday 9th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

As always, it is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) in a debate on human trafficking. He served with distinction on the Select Committee on Home Affairs a few months ago when we published our report into human trafficking. That took over a year to complete, not because we were not seeking to inform the House more quickly, but because the more we investigated this very important subject, the more information came before us and the more we wanted to get to the bottom of the root causes of human trafficking.

This is a unique debate because Members on both sides of the House are lavishing praise on the decision of the Minister and the Government. That is an unusual situation for the Minister for Immigration, which he should appreciate and put in the bank for future occasions. He and the Government have done absolutely the right thing in opting into this directive. It will make a huge difference in respect of our uncovering the sources of human trafficking and dealing with those criminals who make such a vast amount of money—£32 billion worldwide, which makes trafficking the second largest illegal industry after drugs. If as a result of what the Government are doing today we catch more of these criminals, signing in will be worth it.

It is right that we pay tribute to Anthony Steen for the work he has done for many years. Even though he is no longer a Member of the House, his spirit lives on in the all-party group and I am sure he is watching the deliberations of the House today and that tomorrow I and other Members will be getting an e-mail pointing out all the things we should have said on this matter and all the things he feels we can help him with in the future.

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), who took over as chairman of the all-party group and has done a fantastic job in ensuring this issue remains at the forefront of the work of Parliament. Given his views on Europe, he is going to make a piece of incredible parliamentary history today in supporting an opt-in to something that has been proposed by the European Union. We should not forget this important piece of parliamentary history. We will hear from others involved in tackling trafficking, and may I say what a good thing it is that the House is relatively full for this time of night?

As has been said, this is of course an issue for this country, but we need primarily to go to the sources of human trafficking to try to find out why and how people are trafficked. As part of that, we need to examine the developments in the European Union, and I raised that issue when the Minister spoke just now. The recent developments on the Schengen arrangements will help us to try to catch some of these criminals. This country is, rightly, not part of those arrangements, so we are observers and we have no direct interest in those matters. We are not the decision makers—this will be done without the United Kingdom’s involvement—but of course we are the beneficiaries of any changes to the Schengen arrangements that mean that the borders of Schengen countries are protected and measures are in place to ensure that those who seek to use the freedom of movement in the European Union for criminal purposes, be it illegal immigration or human trafficking, are checked very carefully. I hope that, although we are only observers, the Minister and the Government will make relevant comments to our colleagues in the European Union about how these measures will affect not only illegal immigration, but, more particularly, because of the nature of this debate, the way in which we deal with those involved in human trafficking. These measures are not an end but a beginning and this Government, Members of this House and others have a constant desire to make sure that we are vigilant against those who are trafficking people.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I have spoken in debates on this subject before and I must say that a lot of the trafficking goes unnoticed. It is now being targeted in new development areas that have a high prevalence of rented property, where people cannot name their neighbours and do not necessarily spot anything untoward when people come and go at early hours. We need to be vigilant in our communities to ensure that we are feeding that information to the police and the local authorities.

[Keith Vaz]

The hon. Gentleman is right about the need for vigilance. We sometimes talk about trafficking as if it were a global problem—and of course it is—but it is found in our neighbourhoods. It is a problem for local communities and we need to collect that information and make sure the police are in a position to act on it. In a real sense, this is a neighbourhood watch issue; it is about whether people are prepared to spot what is happening locally and report it to the police.

During the recess, I took the opportunity to visit Tandarei, in Romania. I felt that I had got closure, because I had been trying to do that for a number of years, including with my Select Committee. We had heard about this town in Romania that had been transformed because of the money that had been sent by children who had been begging on the streets of London, Madrid, Paris and other major European cities. We received the co-operation of the Romanian Government, and I wish to pay tribute to the excellent work that they have done. I also wish to pay tribute to the work of the Romanian police, in concert with the Metropolitan police, on Operation Golf, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), who is no longer in his place. That international co-operation goes beyond directives of the kind that we are discussing, but the close co-operation of the Metropolitan police and the Romanian police led to many people being arrested in Tandarei.

In Tandarei, we saw a number of very expensive villas that had been built as a result of the proceeds of trafficking and a number of very expensive cars. We spoke with the mayor and other officials there and I must put on the record the fact that they, of course, denied any involvement in human trafficking and denied that children were being sent from this remote Romanian village to London, Madrid, Paris and other major cities. However, they did say that money had been flowing into Tandarei. The figures that we were given showed that £2.8 million had been transferred through legitimate means—through Western Union and by other means of transferring money—into that town last year, and it is estimated by the authorities that many millions more had gone there. Those who live in that town have said that the children go voluntarily, with the consent of their parents, to raise money for the betterment of their local communities. We therefore have a duty to engage with these communities, through the excellent work of the Romanian authorities and the Romanian Government, to try to explain that this is not the right thing to do with young children and that the best place for them is with their parents and families. As neighbours, partners and colleagues in the European Union, we should also provide whatever help is necessary.

Some people may think that this problem cannot be solved, but I think that it can. I believe that this will be solved by going to the source countries, such as Moldova, a third of whose population has left that country over the past 10 years, and origin countries in north Africa from which people are being trafficked. We have read the stories of those who are now coming from Libya, some of whom are paying huge sums to get out of that country. Some of them end up in Italy, and I spoke this morning to the Italian ambassador about the problem. Last week, I spoke to the Greek ambassador about the number of people from Moldova and Afghanistan who end up in Turkey. Many of those people have just one ambition, which is to live in the United Kingdom, and they will pay any amount of money in order to do so.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Thursday 31st March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

It is a great pleasure to continue this reunion event of the Public Bill Committee into a second day, and to follow the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), particularly as I had the great pleasure of being able to read some of her words in the briefings that I, too, received. That helped me to follow some of the details. I do not wish to detain the House for long in speaking to the new clause.

First, I should put it on record that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association, and in that capacity I am delighted to be able to welcome this change, for which the LGA has pressed for a very long time. Not for the first time, I extend my thanks to the Minister for taking this and many other issues seriously, and for the time that he has taken to have meetings outside the Bill Committee structure on a range of issues.

It is right that the system should not impose a cost on councils. The fundamental problem with the current system is that it has been a huge drain on council resources at a time when councils have many other things to do and many other calls on the public purse. Rather unusually, I am not going to blame the previous Government and say that they got it wrong on purpose. I believe that the fees were simply wrongly set, and that the required updates have not been made. I do not think the intention was to make councils pay, but that was how it evolved.

It is important that we move from the previous Government’s approach of having things set centrally to a more localist agenda. Councils should be free and have more power. For example, it should be open to a council to set fees below the cost-recovery level if, for some reason, it felt that an important thing to do. I am not entirely sure why taxpayers might feel that that was the right thing to do, but then councils should be allowed to do things for which I do not understand the reasoning. Indeed, on many occasions they do so.

I will not go through all the details of the new clause, as the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North mentioned them. However, I have one concern to put to the Minister. He talked about the Secretary of State’s powers and used the word “cap”. He will be aware that we had discussions yesterday on concerns about the Secretary of State’s capping powers over the police precept. I understand where the Minister is heading and why he wants such a power in this case, but can he assure me that he wants the Secretary of State’s capping power to be used rarely, and that, ideally, it should not be the driving force as it has been in other cases in local government, such as police precepts?

I am delighted to see the new clause, and I thank the Minister again on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, and on behalf of the LGA as one of its vice-presidents.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

Although I was not a member of the Committee, I declare an interest as the vice-chair of the all-party leisure group and a former nightclub manager. I spent a number of years in the late-night economy, and I stress that 99.9% of people who go out and enjoy their time in the evenings are good, responsible people out for an office party, leaving do or birthday party. The problems are all about dealing with the small minority.

One reason why I wished to speak was to make a point about transparency. It is in the interests of venues to have a safe environment, and the licensing authority can ensure that. I wish to make a few points about the late-night levy. I have met a number of representatives of venues, and of course nobody likes paying extra money, but it is very much in their interests that the money from the levy is used to create a safe environment. I should like the venues to have a greater opportunity to help to shape how the money is spent. My understanding is that local authorities will receive 30% of it and 70% will go to the police. The venues, which pay that money, should help to shape that decision. Ultimately, the final decision should be for the police or the local authority, because they are the ones who are accountable, but the venue owners see the situation at first hand.

In the areas where I worked, I saw that when people were enjoying themselves, they were generally well behaved, but when they wanted to go home, they found themselves unable to do so. I would therefore have suggested that the money from the levy be spent on a taxi rank co-ordinator in my area, so that people could get home swiftly and efficiently. In other areas, the venues might suggest that there should be better lighting, because generally, where there is good visible access there is a lot less trouble than in areas with only a handful of people around, which are not so well policed. My plea is that the Government ensure that there is transparency, and that venues that contribute to the late-night levy have a say.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I come at the matter from a different viewpoint from my hon. Friend’s, because I used to be the chairman of the licensing authority in the city of Hull. Transparency is important on the late-night levy, and on fees in general, but do we not have to ensure that we get the split right, too? When I was the licensing chairman, many of the solutions to problems in the late-night economy came from the council rather than from the police. We should therefore keep the percentage split under review at all times.

[Justin Tomlinson]

That is a valid point, and my hon. Friend speaks with first-hand experience and authority. The layout of the night-time economy is different in every town, which means that each town creates unique challenges that either the local authority or the local police must challenge. That is why I keep coming back to the need to ensure that venues feed into the system. The people who run them will know where the minority of people are generating problems.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman. Does he think it is important that nothing in the proposals detracts from existing models of good practice in arrangements involving the police, the local authority and the business community, such as the one in Broad street in Birmingham?

[Justin Tomlinson]

I absolutely agree, and I am familiar with Broad street—I have seen how it has been transformed into a relatively safe place over the years. There will always be a minority who cause problems, but if local late-night economy establishments, the local authority and the police work together proactively, they can transform an area. Although it is a burden to pay additional fees through the late-night levy, the venues will be paid back, because if more customers can see that the levy has created a safe environment, they will have the confidence to go to the venues and spend money.

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

My hon. Friend said that every town is different, and I am interested in his experience of running a late-night venue. The Bill would apply the provision to a whole council area, and not just to one town in it. As a nightclub owner, would he have been happy to pay for problems in a different town, and for none of his money to be spent in his town?

[Justin Tomlinson]

My understanding is that that is why picking areas has been delegated to local authorities. I would extend it so that the measure is venue-specific. There are some proactive, good venues and there should be an incentive to encourage that; the opposite should apply to establishments that are perhaps less proactive and more responsible for the minority of problems.

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend’s last point. The measure would be very effective in creating a safe environment in some areas of Portsmouth such as Guildhall walk, but in the north of the city, which I represent, many venues have no problems at all, and yet they would be severely penalised by such fees.

[Justin Tomlinson]

To sum up on that point, my plea is for common sense to be applied to each local area. I would go one step further. The Best Bar None and various Pubwatch schemes are so essential that they ought to be compulsory. It should be part of the licensing arrangement that somebody who is responsible for a venue attends those meetings. Clearly, the best examples are when local authorities, the local police and local venues work together. It is unacceptable if a late-night economy venue does not proactively participate in such schemes, so I would include such participation as a condition of the licence.

[James Brokenshire]

This has been a useful debate, and I welcome the contributions from the hon. Members for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) and for Cambridge (Dr Huppert)—I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s kind comments and thank him for his support and participation in Committee—and my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson).

Obviously, new clause 1 relates to the general setting of licensing fees and the administration of the Licensing Act 2003 locally, rather than to the late-night levy. I recognise the points that my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon has just raised, and perhaps we will debate the late-night levy in further detail when we debate another group of amendments in this part of our consideration of the Bill.

The late-night levy is a discretionary arrangement, so local authorities can decide whether one is appropriate in their area. The Government have indicated that there could be exemptions for establishments that make arrangements under schemes such as Best Bar None. Further detail will come forward in regulations and guidance, as I indicated in Committee, which I hope my hon. Friend accepts.

The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) mentioned in an intervention the business improvement district in Broad street, Birmingham, which I have had the pleasure to visit. I saw how that partnership-type approach of drawing together the relevant licensed premises and other businesses to provide funds to look after and manage the area. A sad and tragic occurrence led to the establishment of that business improvement district, but it is a good example of how partnership working involving the police, the local authority, licensed premises and other businesses can work.

The Government do not seek to prescribe one specific model of partnership or how partnerships operate, or to say how a local authority should approach its management of licensing-related issues. Those things can be done in various ways, including through a business improvement district, a late-night levy, an early morning restriction order or voluntary arrangements such as community alcohol projects. I went to see the St Neots project when that started, and it is now being rolled forward. We support many such consensual voluntary arrangements whereby various parts of business work with local councils to come up with innovative, practical solutions to address problems on the ground.

The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North and others highlighted a number of specific points in relation to new clause 1. As she said, the previous Government tasked the independent fees review panel with consideration of the deficit between the costs and income of licensing authorities. In 2006, it estimated that a 7% increase in fee income was necessary for full cost recovery. Obviously, important points were made in the course of that review and, as I indicated, it was first and foremost in our considerations in introducing the new clause. The Government did not suddenly alight on the new clause at the last moment. Indeed, the original consultation document, which we published last summer, clearly refers to fees. In addition, full cost recovery was very much part and parcel of the consultation, to which we are therefore responding.

We will issue statutory guidance under section 182 of the 2003 Act on the application of good regulation, including risk assessment and targeted inspection, to which licensing authorities must have regard. That will be important as a further framework to the structure of the new arrangements.

Hon. Members mentioned burdens on business. We are obviously cognisant of statements in the recent Budget and the intention to introduce a moratorium to exempt micro and start-up businesses from new domestic regulation. There will be exemptions from the moratorium, and we will obviously need to consider the new licensing legislation, including locally set fees, within that framework. However, I say to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North that there is a clear need to address the gap highlighted in the Elton report. It does not seem right for local authorities effectively to subsidise the processing and activities of the 2003 Act when dealing with licensing arrangements, and I shall say more about that.

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[Andrew Percy]

I had not intended to speak in this debate, but it is about an issue in which I am quite interested, given my former role as chairman of the licensing authority in Hull, one of the two councils in East Yorkshire. My coalition colleague, the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), stole some of my thunder, proving that on this issue we are a happy coalition.

I chaired the licensing authority in Hull for a number of years, at the time when powers were transferred to us from the justices, so I was involved in writing the city’s licensing policy. It was clear from the beginning that the powers that we had been given were insufficient. In some ways, I understood why the Government had come up with a solution, given the national outcry at the time and the problems that we had all read about. However, when I sat down with our council officers and said, “Alcohol disorder zones—what’s your advice?”, they said, “We’re not going to go anywhere near them, and we doubt anyone else will.” It would have taken some time for alcohol disorder zones to become effective, but it was clear from the beginning that they were incredibly bureaucratic and would not be introduced in any part of England. Indeed, we have had similar problems with cumulative impact zones, which the local authority in Hull has twice rejected, and on very much the same grounds—the unfairness that could be meted out to premises with no problems at all, but which could none the less be drawn into such zones.

I take the point made by the shadow Minister—my near neighbour, the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson)—about the late-night levy. In many ways, I understand the Government’s intentions. Indeed, when I was a licensing chairman, all we wanted was a little more power—as all councillors and politicians always do—to do something about the premises with which we knew we had repeated problems. At the time, we could not always rely on the police to make review applications, and we could do little with the review applications that we received from residents, because the weight of evidence that they put was insufficient, so we do need something.

I have concerns, however, particularly—as the shadow Minister said—in areas such as the East Riding of Yorkshire, or in the other part of my constituency, in north Lincolnshire. A late-night levy could draw in the Percy Arms—the pub four doors from my house, in a small, quiet, East Riding village—at the same time as nightclubs in Bridlington and Withernsea, which seems a little unfair.

Indeed, that would be unfair in a city as well. In Hull, as well as in Scunthorpe and other towns in our area, the problems are generally in the town or city centre, yet pubs in the suburbs or outside the city could also be drawn into the levy. I therefore support the suggestion made by Members in all parts of the House, including by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge, that we should think carefully about how to apply the levy. I understand the Government’s intention, and I agree with the early-hours orders, which could be particularly effective. However, we need to ensure flexibility in the system. In my time as a licensing chairman, we wanted a bit more power to do something against certain premises. However, as with all legislation, we need to ensure that we do not draw in premises that are innocent of any trouble. Like the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), I would urge the Government to give an assurance that the provisions will be reviewed at some time in the future.

[Justin Tomlinson]

Obviously I have already covered some of this issue with my earlier comments on the late-night levy, but the buzz word that is coming across is greater flexibility. A number of Members have highlighted possible solutions to the problems of setting boundaries, but I think that the only way to set a boundary is to be venue-specific. Venues that conduct themselves in the right manner need an incentive. It has been suggested that venues in the East Riding with no history of problems, which do everything by the rule book and are nowhere near the problem areas, could be caught by the provisions. If we adopted more specific boundaries, we might have a ward boundary between two different establishments, with the well-behaved one on the wrong side of the boundary.

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[Diana Johnson]

It has been interesting to listen to the practical experiences of the hon. Members for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) and for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson). Given his practical business experience, what does the hon. Member for North Swindon think about the possibility of having a late-night levy and an early morning restriction order operating at the same time?

[Justin Tomlinson]

There would be obvious challenges. For example, if a local authority decided to charge any venue open after midnight a late-night levy but made it close at 12.15, that would not give it an opportunity to generate enough additional income to pay for the late-night levy. My proposal would be to bring the local authority, the police and the late-night venues together to discuss the matter. No venue will openly say that it wants to pay a late-night levy, because it adds an extra cost to its bottom line, but if that money were seen to be spent on improving the safety and enjoyment of the vast majority of people, allowing them to get home safely and quickly after a night out, they would be more likely to go out again and spend money.

I am trying to strike a balance between being proactively supportive of people going out and enjoying themselves and considering those who have to deal with the minority who cause problems. To ensure that this works, I would make it compulsory for those responsible for running venues—the managers, the keyholders, the licence holders—to sit round the table with the local authority, the licensing people and the police. This practice can encompass schemes such as Best Bar None and Pubwatch, and approaches that bar troublemakers from all the venues in an area if they cause trouble in just one. In that way, the vast majority who go out to enjoy themselves on Friday and Saturday nights will have their experience enhanced, and the industry will benefit because its perception and reputation will be greatly improved.

[Steve McCabe]

I agree with the comments made by the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson); his experience has been of benefit to all of us. This is not a party political issue. We all want to see successful pubs and licensed premises where people can enjoy themselves and the businesses can make money and provide the jobs that are very much needed in some places. Perhaps I did not make myself clear to the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert): I am happy to accept that alcohol disorder zones were not a success. I think that they were genuinely conceived as an attempt to deal with a problem that we all recognised, but they were not a success. I am not in any sense troubled to see the Government scrapping them and trying a different approach. I honestly hope that that approach will work, and I wish it well.

There are some obvious concerns, however, and several of them have been mentioned today. Problems could arise when a rural area is adjacent to an intensively developed town, for example. The application of the rules in such a situation could be problematic. The west midlands has several local authorities in close proximity, and there is a risk that the application of certain levy arrangements in, say, Solihull could have a knock-on effect in neighbouring Birmingham. It is reasonable to say that we are concerned about how this will work in practice.

I urge the Minister to review the provisions, not because I want to be able to come back here in 12 or 18 months to have a bit of fun at his expense. On many occasions, I would quite enjoy that, but in this context it probably would not be terribly useful. As I have said, this problem does not involve any party politics. We are all grappling with the same issue, and want to get to the same end point. I therefore urge the Minister to have a review, perhaps even a rolling review, so that we can see what problems are developing, what solutions are being tried, and whether there is a way of developing best practice. Instead of reaching a point at which we have to say, “Oh well, that didn’t work either. We’ll repeal it and start all over again,” I would much rather see the approach being modified as we go along. It might be in the Minister’s interest to agree to report regularly to us on the lessons that have been learned from the application of the measure, so that we can call on the experience of people such as the hon. Member for North Swindon, who could suggest adjustments that might make a difference.

I wish the measure well, and I hope that it will work, but I urge the Minister to think about introducing a regular review process that will allow us to learn lessons and ensure that we tackle the problem.

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[Justin Tomlinson]

I welcome the suggestion that there is greater flexibility in the provision, but setting the levy according to time is still likely to capture venues that conduct themselves appropriately but just happen to be operating beyond a certain time. There is an analogy with football policing. A big local football club will contribute to policing costs because it attracts all the supporters, but no one would dream of charging the part-time or amateur football clubs that play on the local recreation grounds. It should be venue-specific and it should take into account the need to be proactive in working with the local authority and the police authority.

[James Brokenshire]

On the venue-specific point, if there are problems, a review of licensed premises can be conducted. That is also why we included provisions to strengthen the enforcement of the laws against under-age sales.

Can problems with pre-loading, post-loading and so forth be pinned down to one specific area or not? We think that setting the levy on a time basis is fair and equitable, involving the provision of funding for local authorities to look at taxi marshals and manage the late-night economy in its broadest sense. By narrowing it down, the provision might start to lose some of the intent behind it, which is to help the police and local authorities to manage the late-night economy—if that is what they choose to do. I remind hon. Members that this is a discretionary power for local authorities to determine.