Northern Rail Hub

Julie Hilling Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Westminster Hall

[Jason McCartney]

I thank the hon. Lady for mentioning that issue, which we were talking about at the all-party group meeting last night. She brings much expertise and knowledge on the Select Committee area. I am sure that the matter that she raises will be examined and explored during the debate.

I note that many other issues surround rail travel, not just in the north but across the rest of the country. I hope that concerns such as connectivity with HS2, rail fares, cross-boundary fares and the non-collection of fares—the conductor’s ticket machine keeps breaking down on some of my train services, so halfway through the service, he stops issuing tickets—capacity, Northern Rail carriage demands and many more matters will be the subject of future debates. However, this debate is on the northern hub.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

On the hon. Gentleman’s point about not being able to collect fares, does he have the same problem on his services as I have on mine, where the conductor cannot collect the fares because he cannot make his way through the people on board who are packed in like sardines?

[Jason McCartney]

Yes. The chairman of the all-party group on rail in the north makes a fantastic point. I was travelling on the train from Honley, where I live, to Stocksmoor on a Saturday afternoon and lots of people were heading towards Sheffield to do their shopping at Meadowhall. Halfway through the journey, the batteries in the conductor’s machine ran out because he was issuing so many tickets. Apparently, that happens all the time and the machine cannot produce tickets then. At a time when we want to get investment in the railways and recover the costs, I find that absolutely ridiculous. There are many issues like that. I hope that we can continue to explore the matter with the all-party group; that would be excellent.

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[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing this debate, and on his commitment in campaigning for the northern hub. It is wonderful to see so many hon. Members from across the north in the Chamber, and one or two additional supporters who are more than welcome in our fight. As chair of the all-party group on rail in the north, I am pleased to see so many members of the group here. Hon. Members across parties are united on the issue of the northern hub. We are divided only by the Pennines, which are another reason why the whole hub must be united—so that we do not have the perpetual Pennine divide.

The Minister can judge how important the issue is for all of us, and how crucial it is that the whole hub be funded. We will not have the full economic benefit across the whole north if there is a piecemeal approach. I was worried recently when the Secretary of State talked about the welcome electrification of the Manchester-York line as part of the northern hub. I do not want to split hairs, but electrification was always seen as an addition to the hub, and not as the hub itself. It is essential not to lose part of the hub to that electrification, welcome though it is. It is the hub that will hold us all together.

The hub is not glamorous like High Speed 2, but it is essential if we are to tackle overcrowding, increase line speed, reduce journey times and increase services. It is an integral part of High Speed 2. I speak from bitter experience. When Virgin high-frequency trains were introduced with three trains an hour from Manchester to London, services to my constituency diminished. The trains terminated at Manchester Victoria, and we lost services to the airport and elsewhere because inter-city trains took the paths that our trains had previously taken. The only way to prevent that in future is to ensure that the engineering works proposed for the hub are carried out.

We will have more trains through and to Manchester, and more trains will connect to the west coast main line. Eventually, trains will connect to High Speed 2. That unglamorous engineering work will provide passing places so that we continue to have slow, stopping services with fast services. It will improve signalling, the Ordsall chord route across Manchester city, and Manchester Victoria station. Any hon. Members who have spent time at that station will know that it is not the nicest in the world, and I as a woman do not feel particularly safe there. There will be improvements at the station, and two new platforms at Manchester Piccadilly.

Such improvements are as important to the north as the shiny new 250 mph train, and will be to the whole economy. Services will not then stop completely at Manchester Piccadilly when the Huddersfield train leaves, because it crosses every train path coming into the station, with the result that nothing else can come in and out. Constituents in Bolton will have a better, faster service, and people at my home station, Atherton, will not have to play sardines on the train, or have long waits at another gruesome station, Salford Crescent. They will be able to join the inter-city lines.

The project will bring £4 of benefit for every pound spent, and will do something to redress the imbalance between spending in the north and south. I do not understand why Londoners should have three times as much taxpayers’ money spent on their public transport as our constituents in the north.

[Graham Stringer]

During the debate I have done some arithmetic, which I believe is right, and which my hon. Friend may be interested in. Three months’ expenditure on Crossrail would pay for the whole northern hub. Is that not extraordinary?

[Julie Hilling]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, which is interesting. It has been interesting during the High Speed 2 debate that people have frowned about putting so much money into the north, and people in the south-west have rightly asked why they are not receiving expenditure. There never seems to be an outcry about expenditure in London. I spend part of my life in London and before becoming an MP, I wanted to come to our capital city. Investment is needed in London, but it is also needed in the regions.

[Yasmin Qureshi]

I am sure that hon. Members here have no problem with investment in rail projects throughout the country. HS2 has come in at £500 million more expensive than originally projected. The northern hub itself would cost that sort of money. Does my hon. Friend agree that it should not be too difficult to find funding for the northern hub?

[Julie Hilling]

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. Of course, it is not easy to find money, and I agree that it is good that the Government have protected some of the investment in rail. We all welcome that, but the issue is not an either/or. It is not all right to say that we can have part of the hub. If the whole north—the north-west, Yorkshire and Humberside, and the north-east—is to benefit, the whole hub must be developed. I am worried that the approach will be piecemeal.

As hon. Members have said, we need connectivity between our great cities, and the ability to travel across the country. We must consider the cost of having so much road traffic because rail travel is not adequate. As some of us have been saying for some time, it is quicker to drive from Manchester to Leeds than to take the train. It is quicker to drive from Milton Keynes to Leeds than to take the train. That is ludicrous, and we need the project to alter that. Like every hon. Member in the Chamber, I plead with the Minister to fund the northern hub in full, so that we will have rail connectivity between our great cities and receive the investment the north so badly needs.

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[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. This has been a great debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing it. This issue is clearly of great importance to the big turnout of hon. Members who are here today and to their constituents. Throughout my time with the transport brief, both in opposition and in government, I have been impressed by the determination of the MPs and the stakeholders behind the northern hub project. Indeed, one of my first regional visits as Minister was to meet a group of them in Manchester soon after the coalition was formed.

As we have heard today, there is much support for the northern hub project. We heard the gracious support of the Chairman of the Select Committee on Transport, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), representing the views of her Committee. We also heard support expressed across party lines. There was even trans-Pennine solidarity, which is not something that we get on every issue. I am told that this issue even unites east, west, south and north Yorkshire. Again, not many issues do that. Last but not least, the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) commented on how dramatic it was that the issue had united Liverpool and Manchester in support.

I commend the evidence-based approach that those behind the northern hub project have taken in pressing the case for the hub and for improvements in rail and other forms of transport in the north generally. Many hon. Members emphasised the importance of finding ways to bridge the prosperity gap between north and south, and I completely agree that improving our transport infrastructure is an important way to achieve that goal. The Government fully appreciate the economic benefits that improving our transport system can generate. That point was emphasised by many hon. Members: my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley, the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) and my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), to name but a few. We recognise the economic benefits that can be generated by investing in the north specifically as well.

That is why we have placed a priority on improving the rail network even when budgets are severely limited by the pressing need to deal with the deficit. Therefore, as well as going ahead with the high-speed rail network, we have embarked on what is probably the biggest programme of rail improvements since the Victorian era. Those ambitious plans include a number of major projects in the north of England. Many have been mentioned and welcomed today, not least the new stations at Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge, highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew).

Our programme also includes important elements of the northern hub project. As we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley and others, the Ordsall chord is going ahead. That new stretch of railway linking Victoria and Piccadilly—two of Manchester’s busiest stations—has been talked about since the 1960s, I am told, and will deliver benefits to the whole of the north of England by substantially reducing journey times between Liverpool and Leeds.

The electrification of the North TransPennine route between Manchester and Leeds through to York and the east coast line will also deliver important benefits. Strictly speaking, that was not part of the original northern hub scheme, but it was prioritised by the rail industry in its initial plan, which it drew up recently. The combined effect of North TransPennine electrification, the Ordsall chord and line-speed improvements that are already part of the CP4 programme will see journey times between Liverpool and Newcastle cut by as much as 45 minutes.

These programmes are already starting to provide the improved connectivity within the region, between the cities of the north of England, that many hon. Members have rightly highlighted as crucial if the economy in the north is to flourish. The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), and my hon. Friends the Members for Pudsey and for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) emphasised that point. The improvements will also promote the modal shift that a number of hon. Members highlighted as important.

Virtually every hon. Member who spoke emphasised the importance to the northern economy of implementing the package in full during the 2014-2019 railway control period. Those hon. Members included the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), who is the chairman of the all-party group on rail in the north, my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley and the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton.

As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside, the Chairman of the Select Committee, acknowledged, Network Rail is as we speak considering in detail all the remaining elements of the hub that have yet to be funded. The Government have asked it to do that to assist us in the decisions that we will make in the summer. There are about nine individual packages. Network Rail is considering, at a more detailed level, the business case for the whole project, as well as for all those nine individual elements. This is, therefore, a timely debate—a good opportunity for the House to contribute to the Government’s thinking on this matter.

[Julie Hilling]

I am slightly puzzled. The argument is that the whole of the hub gives the 4:1 benefit ratio. There is a possibility, of course, that one little place may give less benefit than another bit, but all together the benefit ratio is 4:1. Given what the Minister is saying, is there a risk that a part that has a lower cost-value ratio but still a value will be overlooked?

[Mrs Villiers]

As I said, we have asked Network Rail to consider in greater detail the value-for-money case for the whole project—all elements of it—because we believe that it is very important to consider very thoroughly all the elements of the northern hub. That view is confirmed by the strong support expressed by hon. Members today.

With input from train operators and the passenger transport executives, Network Rail needs to establish the impact that North TransPennine electrification will have on the original hub proposals. It may be that the eventual package put forward by Network Rail, the industry and the PTEs to achieve the goals of the northern hub is somewhat different from the original 2009 proposals. We will obviously have to consider carefully the input that we get from the industry groups and from the PTEs in the relevant areas before we make final decisions on the matter. I fully appreciate how much support there is for going ahead with the whole package and I fully appreciate the benefits that it could deliver. I can assure the House that the Government will consider the northern hub package as a whole as well as its individual elements when we make our decisions on HLOS2 and the CP5 period this summer.

My hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley wanted me to pre-empt that process and make the decision today. I am afraid that I will have to disappoint him, but I can assure him that we will consider the matter with great care in the run-up to our announcement on HLOS2 and the CP5 period in the summer. Whether we can fund the whole programme in CP5 depends on what is affordable within available budgets. We will also need to assess the case for improvements elsewhere in the country to determine which projects can be given priority. Of course we want to fund as many projects that promote economic growth as possible, but we also need to ensure that the Government’s overall finances are not overstretched in these difficult times. Given the competing demands on limited taxpayer funding, it is vital that the overall cost of running the railways and the cost of such upgrades come down. If we can achieve the kind of savings that Sir Ray McNulty said were possible in his report last year, it will become much easier to deliver the improvements that passengers want.

We will be publishing a Command Paper on the reform that we need to see costs come down on the railways, thus improving value for money for both passengers and taxpayers. The more inefficiency that we can take out of the railways, the greater the scope for delivering infrastructure upgrades and additional services.

Naturally, today’s debate has focused primarily on improvements to the conventional rail network in the north. The projects that we have given the go-ahead to in the north will complement our proposals on high-speed rail. I welcome the support that has been expressed today by a number of hon. Members for the Government’s high-speed rail proposals. The Secretary of State for Transport was very clear that her decision was to go ahead with the whole Y network to Manchester and Leeds and not just the London to Birmingham leg. HS2 can potentially complement the improvement of local and regional services. For example, Centro produced an analysis that said that the benefits of HS2 to Birmingham could be significantly increased, with improvements to the local and regional transport network in the west midlands. It is quite important to consider whether the commitment to the Y network to the north of England might further strengthen the case for the northern hub package because of its potential to spread the benefits of high-speed rail more quickly and more widely around the north of England.

In the last few minutes available to me, I want to pick up on some of the more specific questions raised in the debate today. My hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley expressed concern about the future of services to Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden and Slaithwaite. Before the announcement on the electrification of the North TransPennine route, some suggestions were made on the future of those services and whether some stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield might end up with fewer stops. The electrification announcement means that Network Rail will need to review this matter and the capacity on the route. My hon. Friend made it clear that no decision on this has been made as yet. It will not be made for some time and it will be made only after an appropriate public consultation.

The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge has again called for the reopening of the Woodhead route. I have to say that that was not one that was prioritised as part of the northern hub because of the capacity that is still available on the Hope Valley line.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham and the hon. Members for Southport and for Blackley and Broughton all expressed concern about crowding in the north of England and the balance of spending between north and south. I remind the House of the importance of the additional capacity that the Government are introducing through the HLOS programme.

The northern hub has achieved a significant amount of support. I commend the evidence that has been produced by the supporters of the project. It will be useful to the Government when they make their decision. We will be listening with care to the views of all those in the north of England who are promoting this project when we make our decisions on what rail upgrade we can take forward in the next railway control period.

Oral Answers to Questions

Julie Hilling Excerpts

Thursday 12th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning)]

I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that I have done that excellent scheme in Cheshire and have the certificate on the wall in my office. One of the things we can do is ensure that the test taken before someone is given a driving licence is fit for purpose and that it is not simply a case of passing a test, but of giving the skills everyone needs, particularly young people, to be able to drive and enjoy the road safely.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

T6. Driver fatigue and sleepiness is a major cause of road accidents, and it is estimated that one in six lorry drivers suffers from sleep apnoea. Does the Minister have any plans to increase health checks on lorry drivers to diagnose sleep apnoea?

[Mike Penning]

This is a condition that I have known about for many years, as I used to be a heavy goods vehicle driver, and it is something I am looking at now. The hon. Lady has met me and knows that we are working on this. I look forward to bringing forward proposals so that we can ensure that an industry that is already very safe is even safer in future.

Rail Fares

Julie Hilling Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Justine Greening]

As ever, my hon. Friend, for whom I have huge respect and who is obviously an expert in the House on the subject, makes an incredibly powerful point. It is worth complementing that with the point that we also experienced unprecedented increases in passenger demand since privatisation.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

When the Secretary of States talks about reducing costs in the industry and staff numbers, does she mean cutting the salaries of people who work in ticket offices on basic wages of £16,000 or £17,000, or of train dispatchers, who are on basic wages of £14,000—not big, but low salaries? Is she saying that those people should have their salaries reduced?

[Justine Greening]

I do not think that I have talked about reducing salaries. Many people might say that a train driver on a salary of £40,000 or more had a well-paid job compared with them.

Clearly, we need to address important issues that relate to the costs of the railway industry. That is why we will publish the rail Command Paper early this year to set out how to meet the challenge. That is the real prize. The long-term way of reducing pressure for relentless fare rises is by tackling the underlying driver: the industry’s cost base. As I said, that will also give the Opposition an opportunity to demonstrate whether they are serious about reducing costs to passengers or whether their policy review is limited to tinkering at the edges with uncosted commitments drawn up on the back of an envelope.

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[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

I start with the point that I wanted to make to the Secretary of State during her speech. There was a global financial crash; although the previous Prime Minister may have been a very powerful man, he did not cause a financial crash in America, Japan, Germany, Europe and the rest of the world.

In my postbag and in my surgeries I increasingly encounter stories from ever more desperate constituents. I hear from those who are losing their homes and their jobs, from those who are terrified about losing their disability benefits and about the changes to housing benefit, and from those who are having to give up their college courses because they can no longer afford to get to them. I hear from ordinary people who are paying the price of the failure of the banks and of this coalition Government’s economic policy.

The rise in gas and electricity prices means that many people are choosing between heating and eating, and some people cannot even afford food. Last year, the Trussell Trust fed more than 60,000 people who were experiencing food poverty, and the number of people seeking help because they simply do not have enough money to feed their family is growing. These people have lost their jobs or faced an unexpected bill, have had their benefits cut or fallen ill, their relationship has ended or they have simply not received a pay increase for a number of years. These are ordinary people facing devastating circumstances simply because they are poor.

Transport costs are yet another problem. Even in this age of the car, many people are totally dependent on public transport. That could be because they are too young or too old to drive, because they have disabilities, because they are young and cannot afford thousands of pounds for car insurance or because they are on low pay and cannot afford to own and drive a car. The bus is an essential part of most people’s travel on public transport. Twice as many people use buses as use trains, with bus use particularly common in the lower income bracket, and 25% of households do not have access to a car. There has been a perfect storm in the bus industry: a 20% cut in the bus service operator grant; a 28% cut to local government funding for transport; and changes to the way funding is provided for concessionary fares for older people, which cost local authorities £223 million in 2011-2012.

What has been the result of that? It has been as follows: children’s fares rising in my area to half the adult fare, rather than being the flat rate of 80p that they were before; bus services disappearing because local authorities can no longer support them; young people dropping out of college or not applying to go because they no longer get education maintenance allowance to pay for the fares; people no longer able to get to their place of work or to afford the fares to get there; the unemployed unable to afford fares to seek work; young people unable to get to youth projects and left with nothing to do; and the elderly and other vulnerable groups left isolated on their homes. It is no wonder that the UK Youth Parliament chose public transport as its No. 1 issue for 2012.

One of my constituents, Sandra, wrote to me about the increase in cost for children on the bus last April, saying that the cost of getting her two children to school had gone up by 50%. The weekly fare for both girls was £16 and it has risen to £24, or £96 per month, so she will have to find an extra £32 a month just for their transport. She said:

“What option do I have but to pay these amounts, this is the nearest school my girls can attend however it is too far for them to walk especially as it would involve crossing the busy A6 junction which has seen so many fatalities.

The other option is for me to drive them there and pick them up which in this day and age of trying to do our bit for the environment is very negative, plus it would mean taking away their independence which they gained since attending high school.

Surely the knock on effect will be that more parents will drive their children, congestion will increase and the bus company will see a reduction in people using their services which will ultimately see the service itself being cut due to lack of use….Working parents are feeling very stretched at the moment and all these extra costs seem very harsh.

I know many parents I have spoken to feel the same”.

Michelle contacted me in a similar vein, saying:

“As hard working parents who are really struggling to make ends meet in the current economic climate we don't qualify for any financial help from anyone, and there is a limit to how much we can afford to pay. I am aware that there such a thing as a Junior Saver Pass which can be bought weekly—but it would cost me even more to buy this pass than it will be to pay the increased bus fare! So, to put it bluntly, I am stuffed!!!

I wonder, are we going back to the dark times that Orwell wrote about not many miles away when many working families were living and working well below the breadline?”

Of course, it is not just children who face unaffordable increases in bus fares. First Bus will put up its fares this month by more than 7% and some providers are increasing fares by even more.

Let me turn finally to rail. UK rail fares are already the highest in Europe, with some season tickets costing a fifth of the average UK salary. We are forcing those who have cars to go back to driving, increasing congestion and carbon emissions, and forcing those who do not have cars into unemployment and isolation. The Secretary of State talks about the cost of our rail services but does not address the fundamental problems of botched privatisation in the first place. We clearly need to look at how we can reduce costs, but we should not do that at the expense of rail users.

I want to ask a final question: is public transport a public service? No public transport network in the world is not subsidised, but if the Government continue along the path of expecting the user to pay the full cost of any public transport service, people of ordinary means and the poor will be driven off public transport. Indeed, trains will become simply rich men’s toys.

High-speed Rail

Julie Hilling Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Justine Greening]

It certainly is, whether in terms of providing more seats for passengers in the future or relieving the huge pressures on the existing rail network. HS2 is a direct line for growth in our country, and I am absolutely delighted that we have been able to announce today that it is going ahead.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

I very much welcome the Secretary of State’s announcement, as well as her commitment to the Y network and the ongoing improvement of the classic network. However, the northern hub is essential if we are to ensure connectivity so that local services are not disadvantaged by HS2. Will the Secretary of State commit to the full funding of the full northern hub project?

[Justine Greening]

We have already announced the electrification of the trans-Pennine railway line, which is a key part of how we can start to deliver some of the northern hub agenda. I am very happy about that, and we are indeed looking at what it means for the rest of the northern hub proposal as part of the HLOS2 review process, which is happening right now.

Bus Services

Julie Hilling Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2011 Westminster Hall

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

I apologise for having been somewhat remiss at the start of my speech in the first debate, first, in not congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) on securing the debate and on her work and leadership as Chair of the Select Committee on Transport, and secondly, in not saying that it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley. I hope that I have put things right and that I will be forgiven.

Bus services are a classic example of the private sector making profit but the taxpayer picking up the tab when things go a bit wrong, particularly when a route is not profitable. Although it is not profitable to enter into a debate here on whether buses should have been deregulated, there is a debate to be had, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) said, on how bus services can best meet the needs of our communities in the future.

There is a huge difference between buses inside and outside London. Buses outside London are predominantly used by the less affluent and are a lifeline for many in our communities. As the hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) said, perhaps because of poverty, disability or age, many cannot drive. We all start too young to be able to drive, and I hope that we all end up too old to be able to drive. Our bus services can be woefully inadequate, particularly if someone wants to go between communities rather than to the centre.

There is a reasonably good service in my constituency if people want to go into Bolton, but please do not try to go between Blackrod and Horwich, or between Westhoughton and Smithills. Someone living in the student area of Manchester has a bus going into the centre of Manchester every minute, right around the clock, but someone living in Hag Fold in my constituency cannot get off the estate on a Sunday morning, and people dare not stay out too late at night, because the buses stop running at a ridiculously early hour.

Perhaps we should ask why everyone sees the bus as a good form of transport in London but not elsewhere. In London, buses are still regulated. Private companies are contracted to run the services, but control is in the hands of Transport for London. The previous Government introduced quality contracts, under which local authorities and integrated transport authorities can commission a bundle of services rather than have bus providers just bid for various routes. Currently, a provider can decide that a route is not commercially viable and leave a local authority the choice of either paying for the service or leaving passengers stranded with no bus service. The consequences of that are enormous—kids not being able to get to school, young people having to give up college because they cannot get there, and people giving up part-time or full-time work because they cannot get to their place of work. My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool described the isolation of people who are stuck in their communities and have no way to leave to visit the doctor or friends—they are trapped. It does not seem right that a provider can say, “This route is not profitable,” and ask the local authority to pick up the tab.

Quality contracts mean that profitable and non-profitable routes can be bundled together as a package, with the expectation that a provider will provide services on all those routes until the end of a contract. That seems much fairer. Rather than have the taxpayer pick up the pieces, there can be a balanced approach between the taxpayer and the operator. Unfortunately, operators do not seem keen on quality contracts. What will the Government do to assist local government to get bus services that are fairer to the taxpayer?

I have several concerns about the general cuts to bus services. As we have said, for many people there is no alternative to the bus. Buses are a fundamental part of integrated transport. We do not want people to drive to a station to catch a train; we want them to be able to use buses on part of their journey. Most of us do not live next door to a railway station, and we have to find some way to get there. Buses have to be a fundamental part of the transport system, not just the bit that poor people use. We need to look at greater integration, but services are diminishing as we speak. As the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) was saying, the integration of our services is not improving. I am also deeply concerned about rising prices. The cost of bus journeys outside London can be extremely high. What are the Government going to do to improve the affordability of bus fares? Are they monitoring the effects of cuts to concessionary fares and school transport?

I will finish by saying that, as with so many of the cuts that are happening at the moment, the cuts to public transport are having a disproportionate impact on less affluent and vulnerable people. I hope that the Minister can give us some reassurance that he will take action on the concerns that we have raised.

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[Norman Baker]

It is important to note that. That is a very relevant point and it leads me on, perhaps, to the points made by the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright). I am sorry that, unlike the Chairman of the Committee, who presented matters fairly and equitably, albeit in a challenging way, he sought to present matters as something of a party political rant. He was keen to say that this was the Government’s fault, but the Government have not cut bus services in Hartlepool—his local council has. Councils up and down the country have not been cutting bus services, and if all the services in Hartlepool have disappeared he needs to take the matter up with his local operator and council.

The picture varies enormously across the country. I am not pretending that it is easy for local councils; it is perfectly true that there are challenges as a consequence of the local government settlement. Cuts have been made across the country in local bus services, particularly in supported ones. The Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) said, I think, that the Campaign for Better Transport had found that three quarters of local authorities were cutting back on buses. That is unwelcome, but the fact remains that a quarter are not cutting back at all. Perhaps we should look at them for lessons on how they have managed to maintain their bus services rather than cutting everything in sight, which appears to have happened in Hartlepool.

[Julie Hilling]

Perhaps one of the things that should be considered is the level of cuts made to those local authorities. We know that the same cuts have not been made everywhere, and that some local authorities, particularly those in the north-west, north-east and other areas, have had far greater cuts than some authorities in the south, which have had much less stringent budgetary cuts.

[Norman Baker]

The hon. Lady will appreciate that I am not responsible for how the Department for Communities and Local Government has distributed its money, and I cannot comment on that in detail. What I would say, having looked at bus patterns across the country, is that it is not the case that southern counties have maintained their bus services while northern ones have not. The picture is much more mixed. The east riding of Yorkshire, for example, has done well on maintaining bus services. A north-south split is not reflected in the way she suggests.

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[Norman Baker]

I will not give way again, as I am trying to answer the hon. Gentleman’s points, and he is anticipating me all the time. The fact is that we now have a regulatory framework that his Government put in place in the Local Transport Act, and the record will show that it would have gone more in the direction that the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness wanted if his Government had accepted the amendments that I tabled at the time.

Our position has been set out clearly. The Government await the results of the Competition Commission’s inquiry. It would be premature to make judgments about the landscape of the bus market until it has reported. We will read the Competition Commission report carefully, consider the arrangements for the bus service operators grant at the same time and in parallel and make it clear where we are going as soon as we have had a chance to digest the final report. That is the responsible course of action, given where the Competition Commission is at present.

[Julie Hilling]

Will the Minister give way?

[Norman Baker]

Yes, but for the last time, as I need to make some progress.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julie Hilling]

I thank the Minister for giving way; he is being generous with his time. My question is simple: have we any idea when the commission is likely to report?

[Norman Baker]

Yes. We will have clarity from the commission, and clarity from the Government on BSOG, in the early part of next year. We will then be able to answer questions in more detail based on what the commission has said.

I think that it is unfair to paint the autumn statement in the negative way the hon. Member for Hartlepool did. He said that things would get worse. I do not want to have a debate about the finances, as this is not the place to do it, but I will give one statistic. The day after the general election, our interest rates were higher than Italy’s. They are now lower than Germany’s, which suggests that the Government are handling the economic position rather better than he gives us credit for.

In addition to the money for green buses announced this week and for retrofitting existing buses, the Chancellor gave transport authorities another £50 million this week in his statement. I hardly think that this has been a bad week for transport, or for local authorities as far as transport is concerned. It seems to be a good week in terms of what has been handed out.

I mentioned that the Competition Commission’s report would be published shortly. The Department has submitted its formal written response to the provisional remedies, which is available to view on the Competition Commission’s website. In the response, I broadly welcomed the provisional remedies. I believe that they have potential to improve multi-operator bus ticketing in particular, and I welcome the commission’s focus on that issue in its recent inquiry into the bus market. There is no question but that better integrated ticketing can help by enabling passengers to make more seamless journeys. Smart ticketing can also play an important role. That is why I have committed to delivering, with operators and public sector bodies, the infrastructure to enable most public transport journeys to be undertaken using smart ticketing by December 2014, to answer the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys.

I mentioned the Local Transport Act 2008. There has been some concern that the provisional remedies have been ambiguous in terms of the tools in the Act that can enable authorities to increase the quality of services, so let me be clear. Statutory quality partnership schemes, quality contract schemes and voluntary and qualifying agreements remain useful tools for local transport authorities to deliver their public transport policies. That is the present position. The Government have taken no action to undermine quality partnerships or quality contracts. We will consider where we are after the Competition Commission has reported. In the meantime, it is perfectly open to local authorities to use the terms of the 2008 Act. It is available on the statute book for them to use if they decide that that is what they want to do.

The hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) discussed the general price of bus fares. She is absolutely right to express concerns about that. Over the past 30 years, the trend has been that the average cost of travelling by bus has increased more than the average cost of travelling by train or car. We recognise that buses are used disproportionately by poorer people. I want to ensure that we consider that issue in our response to the Competition Commission’s inquiry into the bus market. It is not for us in Government to start telling people how much they should charge for buses in Kettering or anywhere else, but we must ensure that the system and the market work properly, which is what we are trying to achieve as part of our consideration of the Competition Commission responses.

I was interested in the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South about the deal reached between the council and Arriva to provide a 50p rate before 9.30. It is an exceedingly interesting idea that a bus company and a council can come together to create a new, innovative arrangement that meets the needs of local people and, presumably, the bus company as well. We need more arrangements such as that, and I hope that we will see what we can do to encourage such innovation across the country.

Transport Disruption (Winter 2010)

Julie Hilling Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2011 Westminster Hall

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

We have been so lucky so far this winter, but that seems to me to be part of the problem in this country with winter resilience. We have winter after winter with very little snow and ice, but then have winters like the previous three. At a time of dreadful cuts to budgets across the piece, it can be easy to make winter preparedness a lower priority, especially for weather events that do not happen every year. A few years ago, one of my local authorities sold one of its snow ploughs, because if felt that our winters had warmed. I think that, last year, it might have regretted that decision.

I want to focus on the people end of the problem with winter weather. Colleagues already have talked and, I am sure, will talk about airports, major roads and rail. I have quite a large constituency, the ground of which varies from being quite high to quite low. The highest parts are the west Pennine moors and, like any high ground, there can be snow there when there is none lower down in the constituency. In fact, I have sat in a constituent’s house in Horwich in absolute panic, because the snow had started to lie heavily, wondering how on earth I was going to get home, but by the time I got home at the other end of the constituency I ran into only a little drizzle. As they say in Lancashire, it is an overcoat colder up at one end. That illustrates graphically the need for accurate, localised information.

I am sure that all colleagues present would share my frustration at seeing a sign at the start of the M1 that says that the M6 is closed at junction 16, because a driver does not know whether it will still be closed when they get there in three hours’ time. I recognise the limitation of roadside signs—it is not possible to put a huge amount of information on them—but we need that localised information, and we need it on local radio, websites, sat-navs and other electronic devices. It is hugely important that that information is regularly updated, because, too often, information is left on those sites long after the obstruction or the problem has been cleared, which leads to an absolute lack of trust in the information when the driver gets there and the road is no longer closed.

This is not just a bad-weather issue, because we need that information all year round, whether it relates to accidents, roadworks or other incidents on our highways. As I have said, the information needs to be localised. In my experience of my locality, certain main thoroughfares are cleared as quickly as possible. I have no complaints whatsoever about the speed with which that is done, bearing in mind the weather conditions over the past couple of years. However, one would expect other roads that one considers to be main thoroughfares to be cleared, but they are not because they are not in the local authority’s plan. I am concerned about some of those routes. They can be quite major roads and side roads on which, in parts of my constituency, cars can be trapped for many days.

The then Transport Secretary, the current Defence Secretary, told the Transport Committee that the issue of snow clearance is one for local authorities, but I do not think it is enough to leave it to local authorities. More should be done to set expectations and to support them with funding allocations, taking those areas that are prone to severe weather conditions into particular account.

There is also an issue with particular parts of local authority areas. Johnson Fold, a council estate in my constituency, has some of the highest housing in the borough, on the edge of the moors. Two winters ago, when the rest of the borough had defrosted, Johnson Fold was still snow and ice-bound. I came across elderly people who had been trapped in their homes for three weeks. The vast majority of residents, particularly on this estate, are of limited means, so they cannot purchase additional help to clear roads and paths. There are fewer cars on the roads, because they do not have as many cars as those in the more affluent areas, so the traffic flow does not get rid of snow and ice, either.

I appreciate the then Secretary of State’s suggestion of voluntary snow wardens. What has happened to them, and how much progress has been made? Standards should be set whereby resources that are no longer needed on major networks are used in the more remote areas, so that they are not disproportionately affected, and I think that that advice and those standards should be led by the Government.

That leads me to another concern of mine about pavements, which we seem to leave entirely to local authority discretion. I accept that pavements might not be their first priority, but we need to get our thoroughfares going, because they are part of our transport system; people need to walk to and from trains and buses, and they walk to work and other places. Again, it seems that some standards should be set. I know that different things happen in different local authorities, and when the bins could not be collected in two local authorities in my area, staff were transferred to clearing the pavements, but more standards should be set.

I say that because these problems lead to costs in other areas. They lead to increased costs in the health service because accidents occur and people have slips and falls. They also lead to costs in the economy at large when people cannot get to and from work or to shops to trade with people who are trying to run their businesses. Should those additional costs, which lie outside transport in the smallest sense, be factored into the economic costs of severe whether?

The hon. Member for Norwich South (Simon Wright) talked about people being given information, but do the cuts to what the Government call their marketing budget—I would call it their information service—mean that less information is being provided to people through traditional means, such as television adverts and literature? Does that mean that people are less prepared? Do they have shovels and blankets in their cars? Should the Government review their expenditure on advertising safety measures? I do not think we are giving people some of the public information advice they need, particularly on safety.

Finally, how will the cuts and potential cuts to the BBC and local radio services affect the travel services on which we all rely? Those services give very localised information about hold-ups and blockages, but will that information be affected by cuts at the BBC?

Cost of Motor Insurance

Julie Hilling Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

As a member of the Transport Committee, I, too, pay tribute to our Chair, my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), for leading the debate. The ever-rising cost of motor insurance simply cannot continue, and it is the only insurance that is compulsory. It is up to an individual, and perhaps their mortgage company, to insure their house, their holiday or anything else, but the law states that we must insure our cars and motorbikes; we are a captive audience. That is why it is absolutely right to debate the issue this evening.

Insurance premiums are bad enough for mature motorists, but for young drivers they are frankly ridiculous. They lead to young people finding solutions that are against the law. Research from the AA shows that more than a fifth of drivers under the age of 25 are prepared to break the law to avoid high insurance premiums. It shows that 21% would consider driving without insurance, 42% have changed the information they provide to an insurance firm to qualify for a cheaper policy, 22% have added another driver to their policy, 15% have changed whether they were the main driver, 3% have changed their employment information and 2% have changed information about their address.

All over the UK, otherwise law-abiding citizens are breaking the law to get affordable car insurance. For example, cars belonging to young people are being insured by their parents, with the parents registered as the main driver even though they never drive the car. Tragically, if one of those young people has an accident, their claim might not be met by the insurance company. It is bad enough to lose their car and possibly be prosecuted, but what about the person they might hurt?

Some young people are finding unique ways of overcoming the problem. For example, 18-year-old Chris Berry from Bolton was quoted £17,800 to insure his P-reg VW Polo. He is now using a 1953 Fordson Major tractor to get around, with an insurance premium of £57 a year. He said:

“If I had the choice, I’d have my car—I can go further in it and it would be much better in the rain. If you are image conscious, I don’t think you would drive the tractor…but it can go 40 mph on a good day”

He also told The Bolton News that the insurance company rang him up after he received the quote for nearly £18,000 to ask him whether he wanted to take it out. He said:

“I told them they were having a laugh—it’s a Polo, not a Ferrari”

Of course, no insurance company would offer him any sort of quote if it was a Ferrari.

[Jim Dowd]

I just want an assurance that he is not using red diesel for non-agricultural purposes.

[Julie Hilling]

I do not think so, although perhaps that is worth investigation.

We have heard much over the past few months about referral fees, which the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) mentioned. I am sure that other hon. Members will talk about that in detail, so I will confine my remarks to just a few points. I believe that referral fees must be stopped, but they should be stopped for the whole of a motor claim, not just the personal injury part. I also believe that the money paid to solicitors in the motor insurance portal should be reduced to an amount that simply covers the true cost of dealing with a case. While there is spare money in the system, there will always be a tendency to find another way of bypassing the ban. For instance, there is money to be made in referring claims for vehicle repairs. The Committee also heard about how credit hire cars are supplied to accident victims, rather than normal hire cars, which are much cheaper. We heard how insurance companies will pass claims to claims management companies, thereby building more costs into the system.

Although I agree that referral fees should be banned, the insurance industry should do more to tackle the situation. I challenged a number of insurance companies and their professional bodies to look to themselves for solutions. Whenever I have been involved in a claims situation, my first port of call has always been to my insurance company. Perhaps naively, I have expected it to sort the situation out. In times gone by there was the “knock for knock” policy; one’s insurance company funded the repairs to the vehicle, even if the fault was with another driver. I am told that the increased number of insurers in the industry and its internet basis stopped that policy.

The last time I had to use my insurance, I was clearly sold to a claims management company. Instead of the normal car hire company, I had a credit hire car, although I did not know anything about that at the time. I was contacted many times to claim for the “injuries” I had received, even though I had been sitting in my living room when someone drove into my car. Why did my insurance company not provide the necessary services itself and charge the other person’s insurer, or pass my case on to the other insurer to deal with?

I also believe that insurance companies could do far more to reward good drivers. The Pass Plus scheme was introduced to give additional post-test instructions to novice drivers, such as motorway driving, driving at night, town centre driving and so on. Initially that reduced premiums, but it seems that people with Pass Plus are no longer being rewarded. We have been told of schemes that can introduce technology into cars to show if a person is driving safely, for example when they are driving within speed limits and whether they accelerate and brake gently. I believe that the insurance companies should do more to promote such schemes.

We have been told about the very high propensity for young drivers to have serious accidents, but in truth it is not young drivers but young, male drivers, and I regret the European ruling that insurance premiums should be equalised for men and women. Insurance has always been based on risk, and it seems perverse that the ruling will end up costing women a great deal more because of the risky behaviour of men and, particularly, young men.

More regulation should therefore be introduced for novice drivers, and I should welcome a mandatory “newly qualified” plate, which exists in other European countries, because it would have two advantages. First, it would warn experienced drivers that the person in front just might do something a little out of the ordinary. Indeed, I remember the first time that I drove alone, along a country road, and a lorry decided to overtake me. I was absolutely terrified, but I am sure that the driver would have thought twice if he had realised that I had passed my test only the day before.

Secondly, the plate could be used to identify drivers on the road in order to enforce other restrictions that should be in place. We hear tragic stories of young people losing their lives or having life-changing injuries after car accidents, and normally the driver is found to be alcohol and drug-free, but I suspect that they are fired up on testosterone. Young drivers should not be allowed to carry backseat passengers, and we should investigate other restrictions to make our roads safer.

I hope the Government make rapid progress on making the driving test more rigorous and on ensuring that all drivers are prepared for many more of the situations that they find on the roads.

I was alarmed to find out recently that about 10,000 people are driving on our roads with more than 12 points on their licences, so I urge the Government to investigate that urgently and to take action. Previously, there was an effective carrot and stick: if someone built up their no claims bonus, they got cheaper car insurance; if they got endorsements or points, their insurance premium went up; and if they got three endorsements or 12 points, they lost their licence. We need to do more to ensure that good drivers can afford to drive, and I hope that the Government will take urgent and comprehensive action.

High Speed 2

Julie Hilling Excerpts

Thursday 13th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

I will not give way again.

We could consider solving the bottlenecks and pinch points that are so frequent along routes that slow down the system and give us less capacity. We could consider reopening old branch lines, particularly those that would enable passengers to switch between the east coast and west coast main lines and the Chiltern line. That would solve part of the problem in the firewall argument. We could consider solving the artificial peaks in demand generated by our appalling fare structure. We could even consider a new line just between London Euston and Milton Keynes so that the west coast main line could be dedicated to taking passengers to the north of England far faster and on a far more frequent service.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way, because it strikes me that her argument is that HS2 is a bad, bad idea, but that it is all right if we build an extra line between London and Milton Keynes. Is she then saying that those of us who live in the north, the north-west and Yorkshire and Humberside should not be allowed to travel on trains? I am bemused.

[Andrea Leadsom]

If the hon. Lady had listened, she would have heard that I said we should consider building a dedicated local line so that the west coast main line could be exclusively available to those wishing to travel fast to the north of England on the inter-city train. It is nonsense to say that we should build a dedicated £32 billion line instead of considering a proper solution to the capacity problem. The final potential solution we should be considering is giving the right spending priority to rolling out superfast broadband.

Archie Norman, the chairman of ITV, has said:

“Scrap HS2 now and announce instead £17 billion of spending…to bring about the biggest improvement in history of Britain’s existing railway.”

I am genuinely sorry to be so at odds with my Government and with many Members over this project, but we must seriously consider whether spending £32 billion of taxpayers’ money on a project that will deliver nothing until 2026 is worth while. In my view, it is not. It is monumentally expensive and the time scales are so long that they become satirical. As a result, HS2 risks being a vast white elephant that is out of date before it is even completed.

HS2 is not visionary, it is not green and it is definitely not economically sound. We can and must do better. I urge the Government, in the strongest possible terms, to reconsider this project so that it does not become a triumph of political will over economic sense.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Robinson]

I am delighted to hear my hon. Friend talk about economic planning. I think that, sadly, that went out in 1966, when the Labour Government ditched the national plan. Let us be hard-headed and realistic about this. HS2 will have some benefits, and certainly it will help businesses to travel more quickly to London, but that is about all we can say. If I were a Manchester MP I am sure I would be supporting it, but below there it does not make any sense at all.

[Julie Hilling]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Robinson]

I am running out of time, but I shall give way to my hon. Friend once.

[Julie Hilling]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way, because I want to challenge his view that there is no benefit for Birmingham. I would much prefer the track to start in the north, but the reality is that the capacity issue is on the bottom part of the line and that if we do not do something to free up capacity there—and the bodged bits that people are talking about doing would not be adequate in the future—we will not have local trains running either.

[Mr Robinson]

I do not accept that at all, and the hon. Lady should look at what Centro and others have said. There is a capacity problem. The Government’s capacity projections are way over the top, just as they were for HS1, which was the biggest flop ever. Their capacity projections said that the minimum would be a fifth of the maximum, but they could not even get the capacity up to that level. It lost money from day one, and it was flogged off recently to someone in Canada who has no interest in it at all, at a whopping loss of £2 billion or £3 billion. That is the truth.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Robinson]

I will give way in a moment—no, I will not give way, sorry.

As a prospective Coventry candidate, I was told, “You’ve got to remember one thing, Geoffrey: the only good thing that comes out of Birmingham is the Coventry road”—but I will leave that there.

In all seriousness, with £33 billion of capital expenditure, this is the largest capital project that this country will ever have engaged in. That money could be better spent elsewhere. Dealing with the capacity problems between London and Birmingham and increasing capacity by 47% can be done now. The plans are there; they are shovel ready.

[Julie Hilling]

That will not solve the problem.

[Mr Robinson]

It will. Taking a realistic view of capacity, of course it will solve the problem, particularly if we are set back by a 16% output gap, thanks to the recession. Even the Government have had to revise their plans. Does my hon. Friend really believe that we will have more than a 50% increase in capacity in the next 10 years before the project comes in? We need an increase now. We can get 50% by lengthening platforms, without the huge tear-up in London and elsewhere, or the cost that HS2 would involve.

I will mention a few other points that I think are relevant. I happen to agree with those who feel that HS2 would involve the unnecessary tearing up of some of the most beautiful country that we have. This morning, Mr Speaker, your constituents were waxing lyrical about their village. I feel for those who will have their houses smashed and repossessed—all for no good. If we were at war and had to move ammunition, as we probably did in those days, there would be a case for HS2. There is no case now. As I have said, it is not the best way to increase capacity. That could be done in the shorter term and much more cheaply. It will not benefit ordinary people, and it will not help the north-south divide.

Above all—I say this in all seriousness to my colleagues from Manchester, Leeds, York and others who are here today—I fear that the real danger is that the line will not get built up there. They will find that the cost of getting the line to Birmingham will be blown up beyond all the estimates. Everyone will heave a sigh of relief and say, “We don’t have to go on. This is the profitable part.” In all likelihood, that is what will happen.

As for the environment, the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire made it quite clear that even the Government, and now Greengauge and the other lobby action groups in favour—paid by the Government, of course, or by the company itself—have admitted that HS2 will not do anything for the environment. One is at a loss to know why the Government are doing this. The whole cover was blown by the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray), who said that the Government reached a deal to oppose the third runway at Heathrow and have HS2 instead. It was a £30 billion election bribe. Whether or not it won them any seats I do not know, but the cover was blown earlier, in that intervention on the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire.

I put it to the House that I do not think that many hon. Members are in the mood to listen the arguments today. It is perfectly legitimate for them to seek to push their constituency interests, but let us go from legitimate constituency interests to a sane, objective assessment of the problems of the capital project, and the hon. Lady exposed the myths that lie behind that project.

Coastguard Modernisation

Julie Hilling Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

I am sorry to be repetitious, Mr Deputy Speaker, but those stations will be working fully networked with the marine operations centre at Southampton, which itself will have a much bigger complement of staff, and much better equipment and communications technology, 24/7. It will deliver the level of resilience and safety that we require.

On the first part of the hon. Gentleman’s question, I understand why he made the statement that he did, but there is a degree of turnover going on within coastguard stations now, and we expect that, even in areas where the natural twin will not be recruiting additional staff, there will be opportunities for the redeployment of many, if not all, of the staff over the next three or four years.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State said that he had listened to the consultations. All the coastguard stations said that they should remain open, reluctantly accepted that there should be change and also said that there should be more than 10 stations, so it seems to me that they were not particularly heard. I am disappointed that he is limiting the next bit of the consultation to the few points he has listed. Will he reconsider that decision, particularly if safety issues are raised?

[Mr Hammond]

No, I am afraid not, as a very extensive consultation has taken place. It lasted for 20 weeks, which is much longer than the Government’s normal standard for consultation. We have responded in detail—the response is in the Library today—to that consultation process. The further consultation is simply about the changes that we have proposed since that document was published.

Oral Answers to Questions

Julie Hilling Excerpts

Thursday 5th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

I am pleased with the number of bids we have received so far for the first tranche of the local sustainable transport fund. A number of imaginative bids have come in. There is a further bidding round, however, and I would welcome any suggestions that could improve the co-ordination of transport across modes.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that referral fees and the whole claims management industry drive up the cost of motor insurance? Will the Government be doing anything to regulate this industry?

[Mike Penning]

The Government have no plans to increase the regulation on the industry, which is already severely regulated. The Transport Select Committee has considered the matter carefully. Ambulance chasers, as I referred to them in the Select Committee—some parts of the industry did not like that—are a fact and are driving up costs. Claims must be proportionate. Everybody injured on the roads should be able to claim, if it was not their fault, but there should not be an industry out there trying to make disproportionate claims against other insurers.