Gurkha Pensions

Jonathan Gullis Excerpts

Monday 22nd November 2021 Westminster Hall

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

Before we begin, I remind Members that they are expected to wear face coverings when not speaking, in accordance with NHS guidance and that of the House of Commons Commission. I also remind Members that they are asked by the House to have a lateral flow test twice a week if coming on to the parliamentary estate—there is a test centre where you can do that, or you can do it at home. Please also give each other and members of staff space when seated, and when entering and leaving the room.

[Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered e-petition 594155, relating to Gurkha pensions.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq. I will start by thanking Roy Brinkley, who himself is a veteran of the Grenadier Guards, for creating this petition. In total, it has attracted more than 107,000 signatures from all over the country, including 99 from Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke, enabling us today to discuss the important issues underlying the petition. I also thank Roy and his friend Jack for taking the time to talk to my office earlier today about the petition and what it means to them. I apologise for not being able to meet them in person; sadly, unexpected parliamentary business meant that I had to ask my staff to take the meeting on my behalf. Roy is here in the Public Gallery, and many Gurkhas have turned up in Westminster today to show their support for the campaign. Sadly, we are likely to be disrupted by votes, but I hope that Roy and everyone outside will feel that we have done their campaign justice this evening.

When preparing for today’s debate, I realised that I have not yet spoken on the Gurkhas in this place. I approach this topic as someone who holds all members of our armed forces in the highest possible regard. As a bit of family history, my great-great-uncle, Allan Gullis—who still lives today—fought on D-day; my grandfather and hero, Terrence Gullis, served in the Royal Marines during the Suez crisis; and my maternal grandfather, William Beacham, served in the Royal Air Force. There is also a strong veterans community in my area of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke. We are proud to be the home of the Staffordshire Regiment. In Kidsgrove, the Royal British Legion has created a beautiful and touching war memorial garden, which is maintained and used all year round, and in Smallthorne, we have the fantastic veterans breakfast club at the Green Star pub, run by Martyn Hunt and Paul Horton. This family background, and the strong ties to the armed services that we have in Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke, were key motivations behind the Desecration of War Memorials Bill, which I tabled in June last year with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bracknell (James Sunderland) to secure better protection for memorials to our glorious dead.

On top of that, today’s debate comes at a poignant time, following on so soon from Remembrance Sunday. Every year, we hold poignant services across north Staffordshire and our United Kingdom in memory of our glorious dead, and this year, it was a real privilege to be able to attend the memorial service at Tunstall memorial gardens and to lay wreaths and pay respects at memorials across my constituency. This year, it has also been very moving to be able to plant a cross in Parliament’s inaugural remembrance garden on behalf of the people of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke in memory of heroes such as Gunner Zak Cusack from Smallthorne and so many other brave men and women who served Queen and country. As such, I speak today as someone who knows just how amazing all our veterans are, and I hope I will do this subject the justice it deserves.

First of all, let me say that I know how highly regarded the Gurkhas are and have been for over 200 years. Their service to the British Crown, both here and overseas, has been marked by excellence and sacrifice. As Roy said to my team earlier, they are some of the most loyal soldiers this country has ever had, and have served on the frontlines of every war that the UK has fought in for the past 200 years. Prince Harry famously served alongside them during his 2007-08 tour of Afghanistan, and commented that

“when you know you are with the Gurkhas…there’s no safer place to be”.

That record of excellence and heroism goes somewhat under the radar, so I thank Joanna Lumley and campaigners like her for bringing the Gurkhas into the limelight. Like many people, I became aware of the problem Gurkhas have been facing, because of Joanna’s tireless efforts and all she has done to get this issue on our political agenda. More recently, we have had our attention refocused by the hunger strike outside Downing Street—indeed, I understand that Roy knows one of the hunger strikers personally. Having spoken to colleagues in the Ministry of Defence and other colleagues in this place before today’s debate, I know that the Gurkhas’ service is incredibly highly valued and respected. Their distinguished service is a source of immense pride in both the UK and Nepal.

From engaging with Roy, I understand that the crux of the issue is the pension scheme, and the concerns of many Gurkhas relate to the historic Gurkha pension scheme that ran from 1948 to 2007. Roy is seeking equal pension rights pre-1997, including back pay. The scheme differed from the arrangements for the rest of the British armed forces, being based on the Indian army model, because the Brigade of Gurkhas was based in Nepal until 1 July 1997. Despite that, I understand that for most Gurkha veterans the 1948 Gurkha pension scheme provides a pension at least as good as, and in many cases better than, that given to their British counterparts with identical periods of service. Under the Gurkha pension scheme all Gurkhas who retired before 1 July 1997 also qualified for an immediate pension after only 15 years of service. This meant that, typically, they would qualify for a pension in their 30s. By contrast, before 1975 British soldiers had to serve at least 22 years before they could receive a pension. That meant Gurkhas were receiving pension payments for over 25 years before most British soldiers of the same rank and length of service qualified for any payments.

Following the change in the home base for the Brigade of Gurkhas in 1997, and a review of their terms and conditions of service in 2007, came a change to their pensions. Following this review, it was decided that the difference between the terms and conditions of service of the Gurkhas and those of their British counterparts would be eliminated. For Gurkhas currently serving, and those with service on or after 1 July 1997, there would be an offer to transfer to the armed forces pension scheme. The reason for this cut-off was that that was when the UK became the home base for the Brigade of Gurkhas and changes in immigration rules, backdated to 1 July 1997, meant there was an increased likelihood of retired Gurkhas settling in the UK on discharge. This change, to better reflect the changed circumstances of the Brigade of Gurkhas, who were no longer based in Nepal, was most welcome. However, it clearly has not solved all the outstanding issues.

It is welcome that there has been ongoing engagement between the UK Government, Nepali embassy officials and Gurkha veteran groups. The former Minister for the Armed Forces, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer), met repeatedly with Nepali Ministers and veterans groups to discuss the outstanding issues. This led to the production of the technical report, with the Gurkha veterans’ grievances, together with the UK Government’s responses, set out in one document. This engagement has led to improvements in the Gurkha pension scheme, and in March 2019 a new package of measures was announced, including an increase to pensions under the Gurkha pension scheme of between 10% and 34% above annual inflation. There was also a new £25 million investment in medical and healthcare facilities in Nepal for Gurkha veterans.

The Government have since agreed to reconsider the decision on the increase to pensions made in 2019, with a public consultation earlier this year that sought views on how changes should be implemented to the Gurkha pension scheme. That consultation closed earlier this year, and after considering responses Ministers will make a fresh decision on the size of the uplift. The Ministry of Defence has also agreed to start a bilateral committee in December to discuss all Gurkha veteran welfare issues. This move is very welcome, but I understand from what Roy has said that, as yet, there is no certainty over the timings of this important committee. If it is possible, I would very much appreciate the Minister sharing more details of these plans in his response.

Another key issue that Roy raised with me was the ability of Gurkhas and their families to settle in the United Kingdom, to be granted citizenship and to have the right to vote. Non-UK service personnel, including Gurkhas, can also apply for settlement in the UK on discharge if they have served a minimum of four years and meet the requirements of the immigration rules. Settlement gives people the right to live, work and study here for as long as they like and to apply for benefits if they are eligible; they can use it to apply for British citizenship. However, I recognise that although there is a straightforward route to settlement the current system places a financial liability on those personnel and their families, costing £2,389 per person. I am therefore delighted that the MOD and the Home Office are currently analysing the responses received to a draft policy proposal to waive fees for non-UK service personnel if they apply to settle in the UK at the end of their military service, provided certain criteria are met.

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

I am pleased that the hon. Member raises the issue of immigration fees. Does he not think that the Home Office is fleecing Gurkhas and other ex-service personnel by charging £2,000 per person for a process that costs only £200 to administer?

[Jonathan Gullis]

I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s intervention. She probably will not be shocked that I will not use the word “fleecing”. However, I was going on to say that I wholeheartedly support the idea of waiving this fee. The Gurkhas have served our country—their country—and they have kept me, my daughter and the people of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke safe. It is only right and fair that people who are willing to put their lives on the line for the United Kingdom’s safety get the respect that they deserve. I therefore implore the Minister and the Home Office, which I am sure will be watching the debate, to do the right thing and waive the fees for non-UK armed forces personnel who have served their country and who meet the requirements. We have a fantastic Gurkhas veterans community across the United Kingdom.

[Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)]

The hon. Member is making a powerful speech, and I wholeheartedly support his call to reduce the fees. I also want to mention the right to vote, which Gurkhas have raised with me. I want to ask a brief question about the hunger strike this year, which was raised with me by the mayor of Hounslow, Bishnu Gurung, who was a British Gurkha staff sergeant himself. Does the hon. Member agree that we should never again see our Gurkhas going on hunger strike to try to get attention because they feel there is not an ongoing dialogue that will resolve these issues effectively, and that it is incredibly important that we have a commitment from the Minister today on his call for a clear process that has the confidence of the Gurkhas?

[Jonathan Gullis]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention. I completely concur: no one wants to see any veteran—whether they are Gurkhas or members of the British armed forces who were born and bred in the United Kingdom—having to go to extreme lengths to get their voices heard. I have had some really great meetings with the Minister, who is in his place, in advance of today’s debate. I know how seriously he takes this issue and how much the Gurkhas mean to him and the people of Aldershot, which he represents. I therefore have absolutely no doubt that he will always be a strong and doughty champion of the Gurkha community and that he will ensure they have someone they know they can go to and hear from directly. They are blessed that he is the Minister for Defence People and Veterans, because they can lobby the Minister directly—they do not even have to go through him to get to the relevant individual, which is a great situation.

I note that the Parliamentary Private Secretary sitting behind the Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (James Sunderland), is a former colonel who served in the armed forces for many years. He therefore brings his years of experience to the Department as well to ensure that we get this right. The hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) is correct that we should never have to see such scenes, which is why it is important that the Minister outlines the detail for the December committee, so that Roy can spread the word back to the Gurkhas about what is going to happen and they can have full faith and confidence in the system.

The fact that we set up the Office for Veterans’ Affairs is a really positive step forward, because veterans’ affairs are starting to be front and centre. Our colleagues from Northern Ireland, the hon. Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell), have joined us today, and they obviously have a strong and emotive case, and rightly so, around the legacy of claims made against those who served in the British forces. It is also important that we can draw a line in the sand over the troubles to move the Northern Irish community onwards, which I know the civic community is keen to see, so I appreciate that this is an important issue for us all. Having spoken to many a Northern Irish MP, I know that Northern Ireland is a very open and welcoming country and that its citizens are proud to have people from across the United Kingdom who have served in the armed forces, whether Gurkhas or others, living there and being part of their fantastic country.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member on securing the debate. On the widespread support that there obviously is across the United Kingdom, does he agree that it is time for this nation and this Government to defend those who defended us and to do that right across the board, so that people who stand by the United Kingdom do so in the expectation that, in the future, the United Kingdom will stand with them?

[Jonathan Gullis]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and I could not agree more. We have to ensure that if someone is willing to put their life on the line, they are protected and respected. Ultimately, they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice; potentially, these are fathers and mothers willing to never see their children and loved ones again. I cannot imagine the bravery that that takes. Sadly, I never had the chance to serve, due to a hearing deficiency, which meant that I could not pass the medical despite the fact that I tried to blag it.

I have spoken about my grandfather’s story, and I spoke to my great-great-uncle about what he saw on D-Day. Ultimately, these people are heroes. We watched the documentary about the lives of Gurkhas and their contribution to our United Kingdom’s armed forces. The Duke of Sussex also did his exposé about his time in Afghanistan and shared his stories with the newspapers about what it was like to be on the frontline. As someone in my early 20s, that really opened my eyes to what the Gurkhas are. They are always on the frontline, always the first in and, in many cases, always the last out. That shows what a tremendous group of individuals they are and what they are willing to do.

Finally, I will touch on one more point Roy made about the support that is available to Gurkhas more generally. Over the coronavirus pandemic, the UK has stood shoulder to shoulder with Nepal, making available support to help Gurkhas and their families in Nepal. We were one of the first countries to send life-saving medical equipment to Nepal, including 260 ventilators and thousands of pieces of personal protective equipment, to help the country’s fight against covid-19.

The UK is one of the leading donors to COVAX, having committed £548 million to the scheme, and COVAX has allocated 2 million vaccine doses to Nepal. UK aid to the Gurkha Welfare Trust has ensured access to life-saving support and supplies to Gurkha veterans and their communities throughout the pandemic. Gurkhas who have gained settlement are able to apply for and receive benefits, and as I said earlier I am pleased that the Government are looking at how to make settlement rights easier to obtain for non-UK service personnel, including Gurkhas.

I thank Roy again for creating the petition and for taking the time to share his concerns with me and my staff. I thank all those who have served Queen and country. On the issues that affect our veterans, it is important that we get it right. The Gurkhas are a special case, even among that group of heroes. I am pleased that there has been movement on the Gurkha pension scheme, with the important change that came in 2007.

[Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his eloquent introduction to the debate. As a rule, I do not like retrospection in our legislation, but the Government at the time and this Parliament decided to give rights to Gurkhas to come and live in our country and have a path to citizenship. Is it not therefore the case that retrospection could also apply to issues such as pensions? The one perhaps follows the other.

[Jonathan Gullis]

To some extent, I suppose retrospection has already happened. As I said earlier, there has been the uplift, the consultation and the £25 million that has gone in, so I suspect that we will see more movement. I do understand that it is very complicated pre-1997 and that that may cause some MOD technical difficulties, but I understand that the MOD is fully aware of the issues.

[Mr Lord]

I take the point that my hon. Friend makes. The Government have made large steps to come to a settlement on almost all the outstanding issues, but I was referring to those Gurkhas who retired in or before 1997. I am thinking particularly of Major Chitra Rana, my constituent in Woking. He has lived in Goldsworth Park in my constituency for many years now, as have many other Gurkhas. We need to look at the pre-1997 retirees.

[Jonathan Gullis]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I totally hear his case. I am unfortunate not to have an individual in my constituency who can share their story. My hon. Friend is a doughty champion for his constituents. I am sure that the Minister has taken note of that and will take it away. Having spoken with the Minister, I have confidence that there will be a very fair settlement coming down the road. It may not be full retrospection, as some would want, but I think it will be a suitable and adequate arrival point, which will mean that everyone can start to look forward rather than backward.

Clearly, however, the issue has not been resolved, and some Gurkha veterans still have concerns, so I am pleased that the Government have been willing to engage and keep dialogue going. I very much look forward to seeing the response on the public consultation on waiving fees for non-UK service personnel, which I feel could be very significant, as well as to the outcome of the bilateral committee on Gurkha veteran welfare. I look forward to hearing what hon. Members and the Minister have to say on this important issue.

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

Given the time we have left, and the time set aside for the three Front Benchers, I think everyone will get in if we remain within five minutes each. I call Ruth Cadbury.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Gullis]

I thank all those who took part in this debate. Dr Huq, I do not know whether it is customary, but am I allowed to take an intervention while summing up? I noticed that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon (Robert Buckland) was keen to intervene.

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

I am nice, so I will allow it.

[Robert Buckland]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) for allowing me to intervene. I have the honour of representing the Gurkha community in Swindon, and I have wrestled with these issues for many years. Does he, like me, take some encouragement from the Minister’s hard work, particularly on the uplift and the negotiations he has been conducting with the intercession of the Nepalese embassy since September?

[Jonathan Gullis]

I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend that the Minister has been exemplary in his tireless work. I thank the Minister for all the kindness he showed me in preparation for today’s debate, and I thank my right hon. and learned Friend, who was very kind to offer his words of encouragement and knowledge on this issue. This has been a fantastic debate, and it is clear that we all respect the Gurkhas and want to see them well looked after. I look forward to hearing the outcome of the consultation and the Government’s announcement in, hopefully, a few weeks’ time.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered e-petition 594155, relating to Gurkha pensions.