Welsh Affairs

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Thursday 27th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

I agree with my hon. Friend. It has been said before, but it is not an accolade for Wales to achieve this status, and all politicians in Wales should have a restless ambition that Wales should not qualify for that kind of funding in future.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The right hon. Gentleman is making some very relevant points, but will he add one more consideration to his list? One of the great benefits of the way the European system worked was the multi-annual financial framework, with a five, six or seven-year programme. That will be difficult in the UK context, because we will not be able to bind the next Government, so we will be looking at five years at best, but it must be for the maximum length of the Parliament, not determined every year in the Budget.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

The hon. Gentleman should understand that the Government have a sacred duty to take care of how taxpayers’ money is spent. Despite all the problems we were left with in 2010, the truth is that we maintain a very strong UK Government footprint in Wales, and the growth in private sector jobs in Wales over the past five years far outstrips any reductions we have seen in public sector employment.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Partial income tax powers are of course a welcome step in helping the UK rebalance geographically, but it is vital that those powers are accompanied by a fiscal framework that genuinely preserves non-detriment to Wales. Given the Scottish Government’s successful struggle to achieve a no-detriment agreement, what specific representations has the Secretary of State received from the Welsh Government on their chosen deduction method, and what is his chosen deduction method? Is it not the case that partial income tax powers make it more difficult to achieve genuine non-detriment?

[Stephen Crabb]

The hon. Gentleman is right about the need to get the details right—we have just seen a very prolonged negotiation on the Scottish fiscal framework—but that is further down the line. We still have an ongoing discussion with the Welsh Government. They want to avoid taking on any income tax powers whatsoever. They want to avoid the additional fiscal responsibility that that would entail. They are running from having that fuller financial accountability that we believe is really important for Welsh democracy.

Draft Wales Bill (Morning sitting)

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[Stephen Crabb]

Of course we own the Bill that we write. The purpose of being a Government is to write legislation. The hon. Gentleman will recall that what was enumerated in the St David’s day document was a recommendation about a set of powers that all parties agreed on. We were absolutely clear throughout the process and on the day that the Prime Minister and the then Deputy Prime Minister made the announcement in Cardiff that it was entirely up to other parties to go further than the St David’s day recommendations. In fairness to Plaid Cymru, they did that. In fairness to the Liberal Democrats, their manifesto at last year’s general election went further than St David’s day. St David’s day represented a baseline around which the process showed consensus among all parties.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Does the Secretary of State think that the St David’s day process was more comprehensive than the Silk Commission, which took a number of years and consulted widely with the people of Wales and all political parties, whereas the St David’s day agreement was a couple of backroom meetings with Westminster politicians?

[Stephen Crabb]

The hon. Gentleman can caricature the discussions in that way if he wants to, but he will remember that they were a lot more meaningful and substantive than he gives them credit for. The Silk Commission, which my right hon. Friends the Members for Chesham and Amersham and for Clwyd West established, took a broad range of evidence not just from politicians but from stakeholders, who included representative of the parties. If hon. Members read the Silk document, as I have done several times in great detail, they will see that some of the recommendations lack a lot of detail; some of them do not give a precise, clear policy steer. There is a lot of good in the Silk Commission documents, but it is up to elected politicians to decide how to take forward the recommendations, which is why the official Opposition, the Labour party, could not sign up to the recommendations around the devolution of policing and justice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Crabb]

We absolutely do want it to be a law-making body. We want it to have the freedom to give expression to its law-making powers. That means having the ability to change the law to enforce its legislation—I think that is the point the hon. Lady is getting at. Nothing in the Bill prevents the devolved Government from doing that. We do not want inhibitions around the Welsh Government making law in the areas that are devolved to them. However, when there are spillover effects from making law, the Bill, rightly in my view, raises a safeguard—a boundary, a hurdle—so that those spillover effects are not more than is necessary.

[Jonathan Edwards]

rose—

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[Stephen Crabb]

In the details of the report that came out today, and in other academic reports, there are some good and important points. We have taken the report away and are looking at it very closely. The whole point of having pre-legislative scrutiny is to use it as an opportunity to think again and take views from a very broad range of stakeholders.

I have to say, having read some of the evidence presented to the Welsh Affairs Committee and to the Welsh Assembly’s Committee, sometimes the people giving that evidence are asking a different question from the question we are asking. The question they are asking is, “How do we craft a piece of legislation that expands the remit of Welsh government and Welsh law-making?” If that is your only question, of course you will find failings and limitations in the Bill. If you are trying to balance that question with the question of how to regulate the interface between the two legitimate Governments for Wales: the UK Government and the Welsh Government—how to ensure clarity about who is responsible for what, how to build in respect for the devolution settlement so that we do not get Governments crossing over one another’s boundaries, changing each other’s functions without a clear consenting process in place—then you cannot avoid coming up with some of the procedures and mechanisms in the Bill.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Secretary of State is a well-known pragmatist; I was hoping he would come to the Committee this morning with a slightly more flexible approach, but it seems to me as if he is digging a trench around the Bill as it stands. As he knows, even his own party will vote against the Bill in the legislative consent motion when it comes before the Assembly. Will he respect the vote in the National Assembly if his party decides not to support the Bill?

[Stephen Crabb]

The hon. Gentleman is trying to take me down a road that we are not going down today. On the earlier point of his intervention, as I said to the Welsh Affairs Committee and to the Assembly’s Committee, we will be using this process to look again at some of the details and I have listed three broad areas that we are looking at: reservations, ministerial consents and the necessity test. My purpose today is to remind Members from Wales, who perhaps have not participated in the Welsh Affairs Committee proceedings or followed what the Assembly Committee has been saying, of some of the broad principles behind our approach to what is a really complicated and difficult issue.

The second bit of what I regard as a new, emerging orthodoxy in Cardiff Bay is this: they believe that the Welsh Government and the National Assembly should have completely unfettered freedom to legislate in devolved areas. They believe that they should have complete freedom in those policy areas that are clearly the competence of the Welsh Government. That is a proposition I agree with and am very comfortable with. I want the Welsh Government and Welsh Assembly to exercise their law-making powers freely. I do not agree with what they then go on to say about these law-making powers—that when Welsh legislation has a spillover effect in affecting reserved matters, in affecting the law as it applies to England or in the way it affects the underlying principles of English and Welsh law—the single jurisdiction—somehow the Welsh Government should have the unfettered ability to make changes in those areas.

That is what the necessity test in this Bill is designed to do—not to stop the Assembly enforcing its legislation, but to make clear where the boundaries of their competence lie. However, this test has now become a point of warfare because they do not believe there should be any boundary or safeguard to those powers. When I put the question to them—when I asked the Presiding Officer and Carwyn Jones why the Welsh Assembly should have unfettered ability to make law without having any regard to the impacts on England or on reserved matters—I simply got a shrug of the shoulders in response. That is not a proposition that we can endorse.

The Bill is not designed to serve the agendas of those who believe that the next stage of devolution should be about driving a wedge between England and Wales and creating more separation. The purpose of the Bill is to provide clarity and to ensure that the two legitimate Governments for Wales, the UK Government and the Welsh Government, can work together in clarity so that Ministers in Cardiff Bay and in Westminster understand which areas of policy they are responsible for.

The answer to the complexities around this is not, as the First Minister now suggests, to create a separate legal jurisdiction. A separate jurisdiction would be expensive, unnecessary and, in the words of a partner of a major law firm in Cardiff, would result in a flight of legal talent from Wales. Let us be clear. If the Labour party had won the general election and had taken forward a devolution Bill, it would not be entertaining the creation of a separate jurisdiction.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

I absolutely join my hon. Friend in making that suggestion and recommendation. It is worth putting it on the record that our sympathy and thoughts are with all the families and businesses in Wales, as well as with those right across the UK, that suffered damage due to flooding over the Christmas period. All the new money that the Government have announced to address flooding issues has delivered Barnett consequentials for Wales. It is up to the Welsh Government to decide how to use that money, but we certainly want them to use every single penny to help to address flooding issues. I am afraid that we will have to come back time and again to such issues and discuss them in this place.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Further to the question from the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock), the Minister will undoubtedly share our concern about press reports over the weekend. What contingency plans do the UK Government have for a worse-case scenario? Would he support a Welsh public stake in the Welsh operations of Tata, as was afforded to the banks of London during the financial crash of 2008?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

With his eagle and sharp eye on the care of the public finances, my hon. Friend makes a really important point. I was actually shocked by some of the examples from the TaxPayers Alliance that we have read. Clearly, the Welsh Government and the entire public sector in Wales need to get a much stronger grip on the disciplines of cost control and to get on top of managing the national finances.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Provisional results from the annual survey of hours and earnings by the Office for National Statistics show that Wales is at the bottom of the pay table and is the only part of the British state where earnings have gone down. Does that not indicate that the Welsh Government need to be empowered with a wide portfolio of fiscal powers—the Secretary of State has supported that for Scotland—as direct control from Westminster is clearly failing?

[Stephen Crabb]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the Welsh Government need more fiscal tools. They need the responsibility of income tax devolution to encourage them to be a more financially responsible Administration. The point that he makes about earnings is also important. That is why he should be giving full-throated support to the steps that we are taking to drive up wage levels and end the curse of low pay in Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Wednesday 16th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

I am not sure the hon. Gentleman quite knows about these issues. We are totally committed—I cannot be clearer than that—to electrifying the Great Western line all the way through to Swansea, as part of a programme of infrastructure investment bigger than anything this country has seen since the days of Isambard Kingdom Brunel.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Over the summer, it was reported that electrification of the Great Western line was costing four times more per mile than the UK’s last major infrastructure project, the east coast main line, which was completed in 1991. [Interruption.] One reason for the escalating costs are the compensation payments to train operators, which did not arise in the case of the east coast main line because the service was in public ownership. With the cost to the public purse now reportedly £1 billion more than projected, does the Secretary of State believe that the schedule 4 payments are justified, and does he agree that the profit-for-dividend model must be taken out of rail services? [Interruption.]

Wales Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Wednesday 10th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

Part of devolving any tax—income tax or any other fiscal power—is the creation of an incentive for the devolved Government. They get an extra tool and an incentive, which they never had before, to grow that portion of their own tax base.

Crucially, the devolution of income tax in Wales will be done in line with what the Holtham commission proposed for Scotland: the indexed deduction mechanism. That would effectively shield the Welsh Government from UK-wide economic shocks but give them the incentive of holding on to the extra Welsh revenue that they were able to generate. That works both ways: if Welsh income tax grows at a slower pace than that of the rest of the UK generally, there will be a loss, but that is exactly what provides the incentive for the Welsh Government to seek to grow the tax base. The issue is about economic development.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

My reading of the Office for Budget Responsibility figures, published last week, was that the Welsh devolved tax take is projected to increase by half a billion pounds over the next Parliament. If the powers are not fully adopted by the Welsh Government, what would be the increase in the Welsh block during that period?

[Stephen Crabb]

I cannot provide a specific analysis in line with the question, but I agree with the general thrust of the hon. Gentleman’s point. There are distinct advantages, not only for the Welsh Government, but for businesses in Wales, which want the Welsh economy to grow through the devolution of these taxes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Wednesday 3rd December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question and his kind remarks. He is absolutely right. It was precisely because we did not want to leave those valley communities behind that we worked so hard with the Welsh Government to secure the full electrification package, electrifying the great western line all the way through to Swansea, plus electrifying those valley lines, which, as he says, will have a transformative economic and social impact for many years to come.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Welsh Government have published figures on proposed roads expenditure showing that spending per head of population in south-west Wales will be £89, whereas the figure will be £815 for south-east Wales. Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion and Swansea will not have a single penny spent on roads, which means that there will be no money for relief roads for Llandeilo, Ammanford and Pencader in my constituency, and nothing for upgrades to the link between Newcastle Emlyn and Carmarthen. Does the stitch up between the UK Government and the Welsh Government to spend all Wales’s new borrowing capacity on a new M4 relief road not mean that there will be no transport infrastructure for the rest of Wales?

[Stephen Crabb]

With respect to the hon. Gentleman, he has got this wrong. A Plaid Cymru former Transport Minister in the Assembly championed the upgrade of the M4, but could not achieve it, because the money was not available. We are providing the resources for that upgrade. That does not mean that no other project can happen throughout Wales, however, and I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we want more infrastructure investment in west Wales; we share that objective.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

11. What assessment he has made of difficulties facing the agricultural sector in Wales.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)]

Agriculture is a key industry in Wales, and I recognise the challenges that many Welsh farmers have faced this year. That is why the Government fought hard to achieve the best deal for Wales in the negotiations on the common agricultural policy, and why I welcome the forecast of an increase in Welsh farm income for 2013-14.

[Jonathan Edwards]

What discussions has the Secretary of State had with the Welsh Government and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs about an action plan to help Welsh farmers, who are being hit by a supermarket price war and Russian sanctions?

[Stephen Crabb]

The Government recognise that Welsh agriculture produces some of the best quality products in the UK. That is why we have talked to farming representatives throughout the summer, and why my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister became the first ever serving Prime Minister to visit the Royal Welsh show this summer. We stay in close contact with farming organisations. We are clear that supermarkets need to work with the farming industry to deliver better returns for farmers.

Wales Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) said that the purpose of amendment 8 is to ensure that the Welsh Government can use their new borrowing powers to invest in projects that they, rather than Her Majesty’s Treasury, want to take forward. I should point out that the Bill already provides Welsh Ministers with complete flexibility to decide how to use their borrowing powers, in much the same way that they have complete flexibility regarding their resource and capital budgets. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman was confusing the requirements for the early borrowing powers with the wider borrowing powers the Bill sets out. Regarding the former, he is right that there is a specific agreement between the Welsh Government in Cardiff and the UK Government—specifically the Treasury—to facilitate early movement on a strategic project of importance to the Welsh nation and economy: namely, the M4 upgrade. So, rather than it being a project imposed from above by the UK, it is very much demand-led from within Wales.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Bill as I read it states that the Treasury has the final say on what the Welsh Government will be able to use those borrowing powers for, and the UK Government have made it crystal clear that their priority is the M4 relief road.

[Stephen Crabb]

There is a line in the Bill that refers to Welsh Ministers being able to borrow with the approval of the Treasury. That merely refers to the overall borrowing limit, which the Treasury will agree with the Welsh Government. It is not about the Treasury signing off on individual projects. We want to give the maximum possible freedom to Welsh Ministers to use their borrowing powers to decide on exactly the infrastructure projects they want to take forward. I am very happy to continue this discussion with the hon. Gentleman another time, but that is the situation.

On new clause 2, the Welsh Government already have the power to provide guarantees in relation to their devolved responsibilities. Section 70 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 states that

“Welsh Ministers may give financial assistance (whether by way of grant, loan or guarantee) to any person engaged in any activity which the Welsh Ministers consider will secure, or help to secure, the attainment of any objective which they aim to attain in the exercise of any of their functions.”

So there are no handcuffs or binds on Welsh Ministers. For example, they already have the powers to support the Circuit of Wales with a guarantee, should they choose to do so. Conversely, the UK Government would not be able to provide a guarantee under the terms of the Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Act 2012 as the Circuit of Wales project does not meet the infrastructure criteria set out in the legislation.

Furthermore, it is the size of the UK Exchequer that enables the UK Government to guarantee substantial infrastructure projects, such the Wylfa Newydd nuclear plant that has been guaranteed with Hitachi. Wales, therefore, benefits from UK Government guarantees in relation to energy and other infrastructure, while the Welsh Government can decide how to provide financial support to help deliver their own devolved responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

I can base my position only on the list of prequalified projects, which was last updated by the Government on 16 June. I have a list here of a page and a bit, which has not a single Welsh project on it.

[Stephen Crabb]

All I can do is reiterate the information that I have received from the Treasury that there are indeed Welsh projects at the prequalification stage. We are currently talking about infrastructure guarantees to Welsh businesses and other companies that want to invest in Wales. I will happily write to the hon. Gentleman with further information to clarify the situation. On that note, I hope that Members agree that the existing arrangements and the Bill before us are therefore optimal and will withdraw amendment 8 and new clause 2.

I turn now to new clause 3, which would allow the transfer of responsibility for referendums to the National Assembly for Wales. I am afraid that with this new clause, we once again find Plaid Cymru trying to shoehorn far-reaching and fundamental changes to the wider devolution settlement for Wales into this specific Bill, which takes forward the recommendations of part 1 of the Silk commission.

Referendums, such as the one this Bill provides for, are intended to allow the electorate to decide on key constitutional issues. Competence for the conduct of referendums, except in very exceptional circumstances, such as those around the Scottish independence referendum, rests at a UK level. I have seen no evidence yet to suggest that there should be any change to the existing devolution settlement.

It is also worth noting that the Silk commission made no recommendations about that issue when it examined the devolution settlement in its second report. Furthermore, there have been no calls from the Welsh Government or the Assembly for this competence to be transferred.

This Bill is focused on delivering new fiscal powers to Wales that were recommended by the Silk commission in its first report, and new clause 3 forms no part of that. I therefore ask Opposition Members to withdraw this amendment as well.

Finally, I turn to new clause 4, which bares a striking resemblance to an amendment tabled by Opposition Members in Committee. The new clause seeks to postpone the commencement of part 2 of the Bill, apart from the referendum provisions and clauses 19 and 20 in relation to borrowing powers, until the Secretary of State has laid a report before both Houses of Parliament setting out the steps needed to move to a reserved powers model of devolution. That report would need to be laid within nine months of the Bill’s enactment, generously giving the Government three months longer than the Opposition permitted in their Committee stage amendment.

With these new clauses, Labour Members once again seek to connect directly the commencement of the parts of the Bill that will devolve tax-raising powers to the Assembly with one of the most far-reaching of the Silk commission’s part 2 recommendations. Other hon. Members have described that as a delaying tactic; some have even described it this afternoon as a wrecking tactic. It reveals yet again the Welsh Labour party’s opposition to the proposals in the first Silk commission report to devolve income tax powers to Wales. It is merely a smokescreen for Labour Members’ deep and widely held scepticism and suspicion—they have used those words this afternoon—and they fundamentally oppose fiscal devolution, which is the next important stage of devolution for Wales.

As this Government have made clear on a number of occasions, a move to a reserved powers model would be a fundamental change to the devolution settlement in Wales. We have also made it clear, as did the Silk commission, that this should be a matter for party manifestos at the next election. Therefore, there is nothing to be gained by requiring the Government to report to Parliament on the legislative steps needed to move to a reserved powers model.

Once again, the Labour party seems to be mired in confusion about its position in relation to the Silk commission’s recommendations in the part 1 and part 2 reports. As is typical of the Labour party, it wants borrowing powers, but it does not want the means to pay back the money borrowed. It does not want true accountability for the devolved Government in Wales; it just wants public spending on the never-never. Just such a reckless attitude by the Labour party got this country’s finances into such a mess in the last Parliament.

This coalition Government have no intention of returning to that sorry state of affairs. We are committed to devolving the tax and borrowing powers in the Bill as soon as possible, so that the Welsh Government can become accountable for raising the money that they spend and for repaying the money that they borrow. I therefore invite Opposition Members to consider the full implications of new clause 4 and not to press it.

[Jonathan Edwards]

We have had an interesting debate on this group of new clauses and amendment 8, three of which Plaid Cymru tabled: first, to allow the Welsh Government to issue a guarantee to enable them to boost economic development; secondly, to release the handcuffs on borrowing powers to enable them to choose their own priorities—the borrowing capacity in the Bill will be more or less completely consumed by the M4 project that the Treasury favours; and, thirdly, to hold binding referendums based on the Edinburgh agreement.

Labour tabled new clause 4. Obviously, as a party, we fully support the move to a reserved powers model for Wales. It is a pity that the Labour party decided to spoil the new clause with a second element, which is obviously a delaying tactic. The Welsh economy needs these powers now, rather than waiting for a report. It is obviously a wrecking new clause, typical of Labour’s attitude during progress on the Bill in all its various stages. Plaid Cymru is not a tribal party—we vote as we see fit—but we cannot support new clause 4 because of the wrecking element in its second part.

With your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I intend to press amendment 8 to a vote at the appropriate time, but I will not press new clause 3 and ask leave to withdraw new clause 2.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 4

National Assembly for Wales: reserved powers

‘(1) The Secretary of State will lay a report before each House of Parliament on the further legislative steps needed to move to a model of reserved powers for the National Assembly for Wales and shall lay the report before each House of Parliament within nine months of this Act receiving Royal Assent.

(2) Part 2, except the referendum-related provisions and sections 19 and 20 shall not come into force until the report has been laid in accordance with subsection (1).”—(Nia Griffith.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

Wales Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Wednesday 30th April 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

And the Rhyl Journal, although I am not an avid reader, I must admit.

Most people get their political news from London papers. If we have a Westminster election and an Assembly election in close proximity, there is a great danger that the issues for which the national Assembly is responsible will be dropped completely. The Minister has indicated that there is no intention to bring the elections closer and that there are protections in the Bill to ensure that there will be a gap of at least a year between them, so I am happy not to press my two amendments.

On the Labour amendments, the Electoral Reform Society has lobbied extensively against amendment 9, arguing that

“good governance and greater stability is achieved through fixed terms and this should not be a power that is given to the Executive to decide.”

It points out that, as the electoral system for the Assembly makes coalitions more likely, fixed terms also provide stability and security for parties of government. Two of the four terms in the Assembly have seen coalition Governments, so I agree with that point.

Amendment 10 appears to have been drafted with the aim of ensuring that Assembly and Westminster elections are not held on the same day. I would have been happy to support that if it had been pressed to a vote.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)]

I, too, would like to start by welcoming you to the Chair, Dr McCrea. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I thank hon. Members on both sides of the Committee for their contributions to this early part of the first day of our deliberations.

Amendment 9 would give the Assembly the power to decide, by resolution, when Assembly elections are held, and would remove the Secretary of State’s powers in relation to varying the date of Assembly elections and proposing a date for extraordinary Assembly elections. Amendment 10 would prevent the Assembly from setting a date for an election on a day on which it knows, or reasonably expects, a parliamentary general election to be held. The amendments would permit the Assembly to determine the date of Assembly elections and consequently the length of its own terms. That reflects a recommendation made by the Welsh Affairs Committee arising from its pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Wales Bill.

It is worth pointing out that the Silk commission considered the matter of legislative competence for Assembly elections to be outside its terms of reference and made no recommendations in this regard in its second report. Nevertheless, the Government believe that the devolution of further powers to the Assembly should not be undertaken in a piecemeal fashion, and that the issue would best be considered in the wider context of possible changes to the Welsh devolution settlement arising from the recommendations made by the commission in its second report. The Government made clear, on publication of the report, that recommendations requiring primary legislative change should be a matter for the next Parliament and the next Government, and consequently that they should be for political parties to consider in preparing their election manifestos. We believe the same principle should apply when considering whether legislative competence for Assembly elections should be devolved to the Assembly. It is important that electors are clear on how long they are electing Assembly Members for when they vote in the 2016 Assembly election, and that five-year Assembly terms are in place by then to ensure that Westminster and Assembly elections do not coincide in 2020.

The Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 moved this House to a fixed five-year cycle and consequentially provided that the next ordinary general election to the National Assembly for Wales would be moved on a one-off basis by one year from 7 May 2015 to 5 May 2016. This responded to concerns raised by the Assembly that holding general elections to this House and to the Assembly on the same day could lead to the Assembly elections being overshadowed. I am encouraged that Members of all parties seem to be in agreement on the position that we do not want the two elections coinciding. I particularly welcome the Labour party’s support in seeking to minimise the risk of that, which is evident in amendment 10.

Similarly, amendments 30 and 31, tabled by right hon. and hon. Members from Plaid Cymru, are intended to ensure that an ordinary Assembly general election does not take place within six months of a UK general election. I am encouraged that the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) has been reassured by the debate so far and by our previous discussions, and that he is not going to press his amendments on that basis.

There is cross-party support for the principle that, as far as possible, we should seek to ensure that ordinary general elections to the Assembly and to this House should not coincide. With the next Assembly election scheduled for 2016, if the Assembly remains on a four-year cycle, the two sets of elections would coincide every 20 years, starting in 2020—something that all parties are clearly keen to avoid. Clause 1 makes it far less likely that Assembly elections and parliamentary elections will coincide in future. I therefore ask Opposition Members to support the clause, to consider the further devolution of powers to the Assembly in the context of preparing their own parties’ manifestos and consequently to withdraw or not press the amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Crabb]

Let me begin, Mr Chope, by welcoming you to the Chair. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.

Following the 2011 Assembly election, the First Minister of Wales announced that the Welsh Assembly Government wished to be known instead as the Welsh Government. That change was made in order to make clearer the respective roles of the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales following the devolution of full law-making powers. Since then, the term “Welsh Government” has increasingly been used by people throughout Wales, and it is now the commonly used term for the Executive. However, “Welsh Government” remains an informal moniker, and “Welsh Assembly Government” is still the formal legal name in statute.

In recognition of the widespread use of “Welsh Government” as the generally accepted term, and following the request from the First Minister, clause 4 provides for the name of the Executive to be changed formally. That will mean that, for the first time, the new title can be used in formal legal documents, in keeping with common parlance. The clause provides that any reference to “Welsh Assembly Government” in existing legislation should be read as a reference to the “Welsh Government”, unless the specific context requires the former name to be used.

As usual, Plaid Cymru Members wish to go even further and have tabled new clause 5, which seeks to devolve to the National Assembly for Wales the power to change its name through a resolution passed by a simple majority. In renaming the Welsh Assembly Government we are simply reflecting what the Executive are now commonly known as. The same is not the case in respect of the National Assembly; people within and outside Wales know the legislature as the “National Assembly” or the “Welsh Assembly”, and I detect no popular clamour in my constituency or any other part of Wales I visit for a change in the name of Wales’s legislature.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Is the Minister aware that the leader of the Conservative party in the National Assembly has made a manifesto pledge to change the name of the Assembly and make it a Parliament?

[Stephen Crabb]

I am aware of all kinds of views from individuals across Wales on what the name of the legislature should or could be. I also recognise that the Silk commission recommended that if the Assembly wishes to change its name to the Welsh Parliament, that should be respected. However in tabling new clause 5 and other amendments Plaid Cymru seems to be doing exactly what it has wrongly accused this Government of doing: cherry-picking the Silk recommendations for implementation through this Bill.

The Secretary of State’s written statement on 3 March made the Government’s view clear: we do not regard this Bill as an appropriate vehicle for implementing Silk II recommendations, that those recommendations requiring primary legislation should be matters for the “next Government and Parliament” and, as such, they are for political parties to consider in preparing their election manifestos. That remains this Government’s approach, so I urge Plaid Cymru Members not to press their new clause to a vote.

[Jonathan Edwards]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Chope.

I rise to speak in favour of new clause 5, which stands in my name and those of my right hon. and hon. Friends. We will not be pushing it to a vote, because we want to save time and to have a discussion on income tax powers, which is what we really want to discuss in detail. However, I say to the Minister that, regardless of his opening remarks, our new clause is in the spirit of clause 4, which he has just presented. I hope the Government will see sense in due course, either in the later stages of the Bill’s progress in this House or in the other place.

New clause 5 would give powers to the National Assembly to change its name to the “National Parliament” or to any other name should it so decide. I stress that the new clause does not call for the institution’s name to be changed in this Bill, but rather that the power to take this decision should be granted to the National Assembly, as proposed in the Silk II recommendations. The Minister was being somewhat mischievous in saying that we were cherry-picking from the Silk recommendations, because our new clause is in line with the Silk II recommendations, in that it is a matter for the National Assembly if it wishes to change the name of the legislature. The new clause would empower it to make that decision rather than having to make a request to the UK Government of the day, as it has done for the name of the Executive.

The new clause would mean that the National Assembly would be able to change its name by means of a resolution agreed by a simple majority. It is gratifying that clause 4 officially changes the name of the Executive to the “Welsh Government”, a title that has been used widely for practical purposes since the 2011 election. There was a Scottish precedent for this change of title in 2007, when the “Scottish Executive” were renamed the “Scottish Government”. There has been broad agreement that the term “Welsh Assembly Government”, which had been in use since 2002, had been confusing and anachronistic after the separation of the Executive and legislative functions of the Assembly in 2007. It also gave rise to the unfortunate acronym WAG—being given the same label as a premiership footballer’s better half has done little for the democracy of our country. I have never used the term since I was elected, instead always using “Welsh Government”, so I was delighted that following the 2011 election the First Minister made the case that the Executive would be known as the “Welsh Government” thereafter. So I fully support clause 4, which makes that name official in legislation.

Now that the National Assembly is able to pass its own laws, it should be called a Parliament. However, I appreciate that others hold a different view, and that in the European tradition, the meeting place of a legislature is generally termed an Assembly. In France, for instance, the national legislature is called the Assemblée Nationale—if my memory of international rugby trips to Paris serves me correctly. Surely it should be a matter for the democratically elected Members of the national legislature of Wales to determine the name of the legislature in which they serve. That is what we are trying to achieve in new clause 5, but I will not press the matter to a vote. I expect there to be greater deliberations on this topic when the Bill reaches the other place.

Wales Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Monday 31st March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

I have been very generous with my time, and I am not giving way again.

The Bill provides the Welsh Government with the means to take active steps to improve the lives of hard-working people in Wales. It will allow the Welsh Government to tailor devolved taxes to best fit the specific needs of Wales; it will make them accountable for some of the money they raise, not just the money they spend; and it will give them the tools to grow the Welsh economy. It also provides them with the means to make much needed investment in critical infrastructure in Wales and, if they choose, to call a referendum to devolve a portion of income tax. It is a Bill I am pleased to commend to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

Wales Bill (Programme)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Wales Bill:

Committal

The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House.

Proceedings in Committee

(2) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House shall be completed in two days.

(3) The proceedings shall be taken on the days shown in the first column of the following Table and in the order so shown.

(4) The Proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the second column of the Table.

[Jonathan Edwards]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I appreciate that you were not here at the time, but the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) made an unjustified and improper comment about me and refused to take an intervention during her winding-up speech. Is it in order for the hon. Lady to make such a comment? What advice could you give me about securing a withdrawal and what advice would you give the hon. Lady?

Fairness and Inequality

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

It comes down to the fact that Governments of small countries are far closer to the aspirations and requirements of their people, whereas larger states find that far more difficult to achieve, especially where the state is very centralised, as ours is in the United Kingdom, with power heavily concentrated in Westminster.

Symptoms of what I am describing include the privatisation of the health service in England—the current Tory policy of building on the layers laid down by Labour, with its introduction of foundation hospitals and use of the private finance initiative. The privatisation of services and assets has carried on unabated. For example, Labour's plan to privatise Royal Mail has been carried out by the Tories and Lib Dems during this Parliament. Is it any wonder that Scotland is now beginning to believe that it can do things better and differently, or that the people of Wales increasingly demand that we have more powers to control our lives and better reflect our political values?

The most detailed research since devolution began was undertaken by the Silk commission, which has been tasked with pathfinding the next steps in the Welsh devolution journey. The findings of that detailed research are extremely encouraging: 62% want more powers for Wales, with only a paltry 20% against—that reflects all the geographical areas of my country; 80% believe that the National Assembly defends Welsh interests better than Westminster; 80% want responsibility for energy policy to be in Wales; 63% want powers over policing; 58% want powers over broadcasting; and there was also a clear majority for devolving social protection—or at least its administration, as is the case in Northern Ireland, which has enabled its Government to stop the implementation of the bedroom tax. However, only 20% support devolution of defence and foreign affairs, so clearly there is a bit of work to do to progress those two areas in my country.

In many areas of the UK, it is taken for granted that the Tory party long ago discarded any pretensions to a one-nation paternalist conservatism that sought to mould itself around social democratic values. Instead it embraced Thatcherism and its resultant rise in economic inequality. Of greater concern, however, is the complete dereliction of duty by Labour in its failure and unwillingness to deal with rising inequality. Westminster is now synonymous with inequality from its representation to its policies.

Following the 2010 Westminster election and the aftershocks of the 2008 financial crash, a new UK coalition Government pledged to rebalance the economy of the British state by sector and on a geographical basis. Who can forget the Chancellor’s triumphant claim, “We’re all in this together”? He told us that he was creating an economy

“carried aloft by the march of the makers.”—[Official Report, 23 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 966.]

What is more worrying is the Government’s admission that this is failing. The Business Secretary now fully admits that London

“is a giant suction machine draining the life out of the rest of the country.”

Yet the Government do precious little to rectify that. Only last month the Financial Times reported that the wealth gap between London and the nations and regions is set to widen. A professor at the London School of Economics has noted that London is the

“dark star of the economy, inexorably sucking in resources, people and energy.”

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)]

If the hon. Gentleman looks at the most recent economic data for gross value added growth in Wales and across the UK, he will see that growth in Wales is rebounding stronger than the UK average. It is closing the gap rather than, as he purports, increasing it.

[Jonathan Edwards]

We welcome the fact that Wales has moved up. None the less, we are still at the bottom of the wealth league. West Wales, the area that both the Minister and I represent, fell by 4%. That is a record of failure. It says something about the Welsh Government’s policies as well—I am not just slinging my sticks at my friend on the Government Benches.

Today, Aditya Chakrabortty’s article in the Guardian highlights how public money and private wealth are being hoovered up by London. He notes that last year, the Institute for Public Policy Research published research that showed that the transport spending system is broken. Transport spending is £2,731 per head in London, compared with £5 per head in the north-east of England. In Wales, we receive only 0.7% of the transport infrastructure spend, yet we represent 5% of the population. There is still not a single mile of electrified track in Wales, which puts us on a par with the likes of Albania—so much for Labour standing up for Wales during 13 years in power. We welcome the announcement by this Government that they will electrify the line to Swansea. However, the pressing issue for us is whether we will get our fair share from the vast expenditure on High Speed 2, which the Government are intent on pursuing. As everyone has noted, that expenditure on HS2 will hoover up all transport infrastructure spending for generations to come. Given that it is an England-only railway—the last time I looked on a map, Manchester, York and Birmingham were all in England—Wales deserves at least 5% of that expenditure.

After decades of increasing wealth inequality under successive Westminster Administrations, it was hoped that finally there would be a change of direction. Instead, what we have seen is ideological austerity and ultra-loose monetary policy, which has seen redistribution in reverse. Amazingly, Labour has signed up to the same fiscal strategy if it forms the next UK Government. It is an incredible strategic decision that overrides all others, but it has barely been mentioned in dispatches by a London-centric media that views it as par for the course.

Plaid Cymru, the party of Wales, believes that Wales is best served when we are free to decide our future and set our own course. That is why it is so important that the job-creation and economy-boosting financial powers recommended by the UK Commission on Devolution in Wales are implemented as soon as possible; they are a bare minimum. However, on their own they are unlikely to reverse the decades of inverted wealth distribution. For as long as Wales continues to be a part of the UK and Plaid Cymru MPs are in this place, we will seek to reform it. An economic fairness Act would force the UK Government—whoever they were—to implement a range of measures to ensure that more economic and job opportunities are created outside the south-east of England with statutory obligations to tackle individual inequality.

Such an Act would concentrate minds on a genuine rebalancing of the economy, turning us away from financial services and banking towards areas such as manufacturing and engineering. It would allow for measures such as prioritising poorer areas for infrastructure spending and investment, bringing jobs and growth. Legislation based on the Communities Reinvestment Act in the US would be included to ensure that the private banking sector operates fairly in terms of which geographical areas it prioritises for lending. I need not remind the House of the enormous problems that Welsh businesses have faced as a result of banks’ activities since the crash. It is a complete disgrace that in 2008 £1.4 trillion of taxpayers’ money—100% of the country’s wealth—was put into loans, grants and guarantees and used to pull up the banking sector.

In Wales, a national public development bank should be set up to ensure businesses in our country are able to access finance to grow and develop. The devolved Government would be empowered with the job creation levers to incentivise economic development.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Wednesday 3rd July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

1. What discussions he has had with National Grid on future electricity transmission projects in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)]

The Wales Office takes a close interest in National Grid’s electricity transmission projects in Wales, and I will meet National Grid later this month to discuss them in further detail.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Western Power Distribution is consulting on routes for electricity poles linking TAN 8 area G in north Carmarthenshire to the national grid in the south of the county. Local people feel strongly that any electric cables should be underground to preserve the beauty of the Tywi valley, and are concerned that the consultation period is far too short. Will the Minister impress upon the Department of Energy and Climate Change and National Grid that such transmission projects in open Welsh countryside should be underground, and at the very least that the WPD consultation should be extended into the autumn?

[Stephen Crabb]

These transmission projects are best dealt with case by case. The problem with a default position of saying they should always be underground is that it adds huge cost and complexity, making projects unaffordable. We want to keep the lights on in Wales, so we need infrastructure that is affordable, but I will certainly look into the specific point the hon. Gentleman raises about the consultation period with Western Power.

Inward Investment (Wales)

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Thursday 29th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Crabb]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. UKTI is the agency that is best placed, given its network of relationships around the world, personnel, expertise and acquired knowledge. The challenge is for Welsh Government initiatives to dovetail with what UKTI is doing to ensure that we leverage the maximum opportunity from the available resource.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The UK Government, to be fair, have the laudable aim of rebalancing the economy geographically and sectorally. I know of one of their initiatives—the national insurance holidays for new employees—but what other measures are the UK Government intending to introduce to rebalance the UK economy geographically? The reality is that the UK—the British state—is the most unequal state in the whole of the European Union.

[Stephen Crabb]

With the significant action of the UK Government to rebalance the economy geographically, we recognise the specific needs of peripheral areas, of which Wales is one. We recognise the extra assistance that Wales needs, which is exactly what is driving the additional investment that the UK Government are giving to the Welsh Government for broadband roll-out, for example, or the rail electrification projects that we talked about. Those are big capital investments, over and above funding through the Barnett formula, about which the hon. Gentleman likes to speak a lot. That demonstrates the UK Government’s real commitment for Wales to receive a greater-than-proportionate share of capital investment, which reflects the fact that we want to see the economy geographically rebalanced. Our ambition is for Wales to share the benefits of all the UK-side measures we are taking, while also showing that Wales is a great place to invest.

The Committee’s excellent report and today’s debate highlight the importance of attracting inward investment with regard to transport infrastructure, skills and promoting Wales abroad as a brand. The Government are delivering for Wales in all those areas. On transport infrastructure, we have discussed the electrification project on the Great Western main line, but it does not stop there. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) asked about the potential electrification of the north Wales line, which we are actively looking at. We want the business community in north Wales to help to work up the economic case for electrification, and hon. Members should be aware that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales hosted an important strategic meeting of business bodies, local government and public agencies in north Wales last Friday. They got their heads around the table to think seriously about how we go about building up the economic case that will hopefully convince the Treasury that north Wales electrification is the right next project for railway infrastructure in Wales.

Further investment in Wales will not come from the Government alone. We need to find ways to accelerate major infrastructure investment further, and I hope to see Welsh projects bidding for and benefiting from the £50 billion UK guarantees scheme that we introduced.

In the important area of skills, it is vital that we do all that we can to enhance the skills of the work force in Wales. Wales has a lot to offer, but further up-skilling of the work force will not only attract more inward investment, but support indigenous business. It is excellent that the big companies in Wales such as Airbus continue to run their effective apprenticeship programmes, and the UK Government certainly put a lot of emphasis on increasing the number of apprenticeships. Welsh Government Ministers are also looking at the importance of apprenticeships in Wales.

Higher education institutions in Wales have a world-class track record, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion touched on in his important contribution, and the reputation of the Welsh HE sector is recognised around the world. Members might be aware that, in Wales, there is a higher proportion of foreign students among the total number of students than in Scotland or in England. Our higher education institutions are also working with several of our major inward investors. I very much welcome the news that Swansea university will team up with BP and Tata Steel to create an energy safety research institute, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies). Tata Steel is also working in partnership with a number of other Welsh universities to develop a project supported by the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council and the Technology Strategy Board.

UK and Welsh Governments (Finance)

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Stephen Crabb

Tuesday 11th September 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)]

I thank the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) for his kind comments about my appointment. I am sorry, or perhaps glad, that he missed my rather embattled response to a debate on unemployment in north-east England when I stood in for a Minister recently. The hon. Gentleman rightly referred to the near total silence in which I have been working as a Government Whip over the past two years or so. I pay tribute to him. He and I served together on the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs in the previous Parliament. I always appreciated the intelligent and sensitive approach that he brought to all the issues we looked at, which he has again demonstrated in the manner he has approached the topic today.

We have an opportunity before us to provide a timely update to Members on the progress of the intergovernmental talks on funding reform. In July last year, the Secretary of State for Wales informed the House in a ministerial statement of the Government’s plans to establish the Commission on Devolution in Wales—now commonly known as the Silk commission. It was established in October 2011, fulfilling a commitment in our programme for government to establish a process for the National Assembly similar to the Calman commission.

As hon. Members from Wales know, the commission is looking at the case for devolving fiscal powers to the Assembly and the Welsh Government, to improve the financial accountability of the devolved institutions in Wales. The Government will consider the commission’s recommendations carefully when it publishes its part 1 report in, I hope, late autumn.

The Secretary of State’s July statement also made clear the Government’s commitment to consider all aspects of the Holtham commission’s reports and to continue discussions with the Welsh Government on Holtham’s funding reform proposals for Wales. The talks will also cover the operation of the Welsh Government’s existing borrowing powers. The aim of the intergovernmental talks has been to explore and test the conclusions reached in the Holtham report in respect of Welsh funding, to look at what the trends in funding have been and are likely to be, and to consider the extent to which there has been convergence between the Welsh block grant and relative funding in England. The hon. Gentleman drew attention to the difficult issue of convergence, which has been at the heart of what the two Governments have been discussing.

The talks have also explored previous studies carried out on Welsh needs. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) talked about a cloak of secrecy; there has been no cloak of secrecy around the talks. They have been conducted on exactly the normal basis that one would expect intergovernmental talks to be conducted on. They have been going on for about 12 months and have been conducted in a positive way. The two Governments have worked closely and collaboratively as the talks have progressed. As one would expect, they have involved the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Secretary of State for Wales. Together, they have had a productive and positive dialogue with Welsh Government Ministers, and, in particular, the Welsh Minister for Finance. Those meetings between Ministers have been supported by meetings between officials. Officials from the Welsh Government have met on an almost monthly basis with officials from the Wales Office to carry forward the discussions, analyse the evidence and determine the funding trends.

I am pleased to tell the hon. Member for Arfon and the House that the talks are now reaching a conclusion. I hope that hon. Members will appreciate that, although the talks are in their final stages, I am not able today to give a detailed statement as to what the outcome will be. I am confident that we will be in a position to make an announcement in the near future on the outcome. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is made positive and optimistic by my confidence, and that he will recognise that the outcome will benefit Wales, and be good for Wales and the United Kingdom as a whole.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I appreciate that the Minister does not want to disclose the outcome of the discussions. We understand that we are most likely to see the introduction of a Barnett floor. My hon. Friend talked about that floor being based on the Holtham estimates, which go back four or five years. The key question we want answered is whether there has been any reassessment of those estimates in terms of coming to a conclusion on the Barnett floor. If there has not been, and the situation has worsened—and we believe it has—that floor would end up becoming a Barnett ceiling. That outcome would be disastrous. To be perfectly honest, given the record of the Finance Minister in the Welsh Government, we are concerned that Treasury Ministers will be running rings round her.

[Stephen Crabb]

Tempted though I might be to be drawn into discussing what might be in the final statement, I will not do so. On what the Holtham report said about the financial position of Wales, the hon. Gentleman mentioned his party’s belief. There are a lot of beliefs about the position. Big assumptions are made in the report about Wales’s funding situation. Not all of those beliefs and assumptions are shared by the UK Government.

Over the past 12 months the two Governments have together been exploring the issues in detail. The hon. Member for Arfon went into a little detail about the Barnett formula, and its weakness. I caution him about claiming that the current system always delivers an unfair outcome for Wales. The spending settlement for Wales in the 2010 spending review was fair in a difficult economic climate. It represented a 7.5% reduction in the Welsh Government’s resource budget—an average cut of less than 2% a year. We recognise that there are challenges in that, but it is significantly less than the 3% a year cut that the Welsh Government had previously planned for. In addition, the Government have provided almost an additional £500 million since the spending review for the Welsh Government to use in any way they want.

In our programme for government we recognised the concerns expressed by the Holtham commission, but our priority was and is to stabilise the public finances. Plaid Cymru’s perspective may differ from the Government’s, in not recognising the necessity of the UK fiscal framework, but that is the context in which we are operating. Reform of the Barnett formula cannot take place in the current environment. It should be borne in mind that comprehensive reform, as my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) so eloquently said, would have huge implications not just for Wales but for all parts of the United Kingdom. That is why the intergovernmental talks between the UK and Welsh Governments have not looked at replacing the Barnett formula, or at the pros and cons of alternative systems.