Jobseeker’s Allowance (Sanctions)

Debate between John McDonnell and Esther McVey

Thursday 18th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

I appreciate that, Mr Deputy Speaker. That is why we are having this debate today. It is not me who is—

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. As I understand it, what the Minister has said is that an answer that was given to my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) two years ago—

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[Mr Deputy Speaker]

What we need to do is to get to the end of the debate. The point is well made and it has been taken on board.

[Esther McVey]

I do not have my glasses on at the moment. It is John McDonnell on the Opposition Benches, is it not? [Interruption.] It is. I thought that perhaps the hon. Gentleman was standing up to pass comment on something else, now that it is Christmas—the time when people should be able to stand up and apologise—or, as he said he would in front of the House, to invite me for a cup of tea—

[John McDonnell]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

Hang on a second. Let me finish what I am saying. For what he was reported to have either said or repeated, I say for every woman I know who has been affected by violence; for every woman I know who has actually lived by violence, I believe that what—

[John McDonnell]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.

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[Mr Deputy Speaker]

We are not going to get into that. It is Christmas, and this is the final debate before the recess, so we ought to take on board where we are and be careful about the comments that are made.

[Esther McVey]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. As the hon. Gentleman said that he would make a phone call to speak to me about this matter, I await the phone call—

[John McDonnell]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. If you check the record, you will see that a point of order was raised by another Member, not the Minister, and I offered that Member the opportunity to come for a cup of tea with me on the advice of Madam Deputy Speaker. I offered no phone calls to the Minister, whom I would not wish to meet and who was awarded the Scrooge of the year award in her own constituency last week.

Atos Healthcare

Debate between John McDonnell and Esther McVey

Thursday 21st March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

I will address that point later in this debate. What is key, and what the Minister of State felt was key, is a constructive dialogue. He has consistently said several things about the WCA since taking up his role. It has to be made clear—one would not necessarily take this from today’s debate—that he inherited the WCA from the previous Labour Government. We would not necessarily know that from listening to this debate. We have been committed to improving it. We want changes to happen, wherever possible, in collaboration with the people who know most about it and who are affected by it. The Minister of State made those points in the debate on 17 January, but it is worth reiterating them today. They are the core principles that drive much of the Department’s work on the WCA and will remain so. Since taking office we have made the WCA more sensitive and less mechanistic, successfully implementing a number of challenging reforms to it.

The independent reviews of the WCA are obviously one of our key drivers for positive change. Professor Harrington has had extensive interaction with a wide variety of stakeholders, including individuals, lobby organisations, MPs across all parties, and the staff in the Department for Work and Pensions and Atos who are affected by the changes resulting from his work. Professor Harrington listened to all of the concerns raised and made recommendations based on the evidence provided. His interpretation was that mental health conditions are difficult to assess and he recommended the positioning of mental function champions within Atos. We have listened and a network of champions is now in place to provide advice and support to other health care professionals. He also recommended that we put decision makers back at the heart of the system and ensure they are empowered to make independent and considered decisions, which we have done.

Professor Harrington spotted a gap in our relationships with clinical experts—

[John McDonnell]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

I will give way once I have finished this point, so that I can get the point across.

Professor Harrington spotted a gap in our relationships with clinical experts and concluded we were not consulting them enough on the guidance and training materials used by Atos health care professionals. We have responded by putting a process in place to engage clinical expertise. That is still in its early days but we are determined to make it work. I could go on, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.

[John McDonnell]

Will the Minister not just answer the question? Why not this group? What is wrong with this group? Why does the Minister of State discriminate specifically against this group?

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[Esther McVey]

I will get to that. I have just had it confirmed that the letter was received on 5 February and the reply was set out on the date I mentioned.

[John McDonnell]

Just answer the question, for goodness’ sake.

[Esther McVey]

Actually, I was mentioning the constructive dialogue and what was important in the context of why my hon. Friend the Minister of State felt unable to meet that group. I understand that his diary was under immense pressure, but he had rescheduled things and was going to have a meeting, but he did not necessarily feel that the dialogue would be constructive because of the words used by Spartacus in this regard:

“The WCA is a statement of political desperation. The process is reminiscent of the medical tribunals that returned shell shocked and badly wounded soldiers to duty in the first world war or the ‘KV-machine’, the medical commission the Nazis used in the second world war to play down wounds so that soldiers could be reclassified ‘fit for the Eastern front’.”

Because of that wording, my hon. Friend felt that there would not be a constructive dialogue. What he was seeking from the many other people whom he had met was not just criticism—one has to take criticism on the chin—but a constructive dialogue to establish what those groups thought could be done better and how we could adjust the assessment. None of that had ever been forthcoming, for which reason—

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[Esther McVey]

I hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reject and condemn such language so that the group can start on a clearer, more open way forward and have a discussion in a positive light with, as I said, constructive dialogue. That would be a positive place to start.

Those comments are at odds with what Professor Harrington himself has stated. He has said that, although there is more to do, the work capability assessment is the right concept and the Department can be proud of what it has achieved so far in improving the assessment. Our response to the latest independent review made it clear that we agree with his views and that we are committed to continue to improve the assessment.

[John McDonnell]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

All of us can see that that is a positive statement on which to move forward.

[John McDonnell]

Will the Minister give way on that point?

[Esther McVey]

I will not give way on that point. We have implemented those recommendations. [Interruption.] We took on a very poorly designed assessment from the Labour Government and we have done significant work to get it right.

Furthermore, although the Spartacus report on the work capability assessment—the so-called people’s review—reflects what are clearly strongly held views, it is a collection of anecdotal accounts. It fails to recognise the improvements made to the WCA since 2010—[Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Mr McDonnell, I know you are frustrated but you must not behave in this manner. Please allow the Minister to finish her remarks.

Housing Benefit and Disabled People

Debate between John McDonnell and Esther McVey

Wednesday 23rd January 2013 Westminster Hall

[Esther McVey]

That is precisely why we are monitoring and evaluating the scheme, and we will continue to do so for two years to see what extra support might be needed. Of course we are watching and observing what is going on. [Interruption.] I will complete my comments here. However, we are committed to undertaking the independent evaluation of all housing reforms. The first report on the private sector is due to be published later this year, and work on evaluating the social sector changes will be implemented in April, with initial findings being available next year.

I trust that I have answered many of the questions that have been raised today. On other specific matters, I will get back to my hon. Friend. As I have already said, this is an important debate, and it is crucial that we closely monitor the situation. We are considering the most vulnerable people in society, and we have a commitment to them.

[John McDonnell]

I do not want the Minister to sit down thinking that there is no housing crisis out there. She referred to the predictions on housing benefit not coming true, but they have in my constituency. I have the worst housing crisis since the second world war. Nevertheless, she has mentioned monitoring, which is critical. Will she give an assurance that that monitoring will be published regularly, so that the House can receive and debate it? The points raised by the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) are critical. We must see what is happening on the ground, because a number of local authorities might want to work with Government to plan a transition over time. There will be a number of families for whom alternative private accommodation or social housing is not available and might not be available for years. An assurance that the monitoring will be published and that we will be able to debate it in the House would be helpful.

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Of course, we have to monitor the situation, and I have confirmation from colleagues that the monitoring and evaluation will be made public. At the moment, there is much speculation about what might happen, but that is hypothetical. We do not know about that, but by monitoring closely, by introducing a discretionary fund and by working in a common-sense way with people on the ground who know best about local needs, we can get this right.

Work Capability Reassessments

Debate between John McDonnell and Esther McVey

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[Esther McVey]

I thought I had dealt with that a little earlier when discussing the decision makers and how there is the right to look at when they feel it is appropriate to call someone back, whether three, six, 12, 18 or 24 months later. That obviously has to be right for all, whether the person assessed or the system as a whole. As the hon. Lady knows, we have reviewed the process not once, not twice, but three times under Professor Harrington. Each time recommendations have come back, and we have implemented them, so significant changes are under way.

As the hon. Lady mentioned at the start of the debate, we inherited the situation—the system was put in place before this Government—but we are trying to get it right, we have brought in changes and we will continue to do so until all parts of the House and, most importantly, those being assessed, feel we have got it right.

In conclusion, I echo Professor Harrington who has made it quite clear that the work capability assessment, designed as the “first positive step” towards work, is the “right concept” for assessing people who need our support. He also recognised, however, that there was a need to improve it, which is why we accepted and have largely implemented more than 40 recommendations made in his first two reviews.

Following our reforms, twice as many people go into the support group now as when ESA was introduced. The proportion of people with mental health conditions being awarded ESA has risen from 33% to 49%. I know the hon. Member for Edinburgh East asked specifically what was happening in that regard, and I hope that she can take some comfort from how clearly we are looking into the matter and at how the numbers have changed.

In response to the hon. Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero), who mentioned one of her constituents and a physiotherapist, the assessment looks at the function and not the condition. Physios are experts in this area and have comprehensive training, especially on mental health. They are only approved and allowed to be assessors if they have the necessary skills.

As for the critics, Professor Harrington made it clear in his third review:

“All they call for is a scrapping of the WCA but with no suggestion of what might replace it”,

and

“to recognise that things are beginning to change positively in the best interests of the individual would be helpful.”

Debates such as this improve the situation.

[John McDonnell]

Will the Minister meet some of those critics, such as Disabled People Against Cuts or Black Triangle, which has been occupying DWP offices and demanding meetings with Ministers?

[Esther McVey]

I am more than happy to meet them, although they might not wish to as I am not the Minister responsible. I will forward the invitation and I am sure, diaries permitting, that he will do so. I hope that today has been constructive and I thank the hon. Member for Edinburgh East for bringing forward the debate.

Question put and agreed to.